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but there are people in those threads saying they can't get the signal to drop even starting with 2 bars. Surely they're either lying or have iphone 4s that don't have the problem?

videos?

vids or it didnt happen

"he said, she said, this thread"
 
I'm gonna stop this now because we're just going in circles. You think the evidence shows a design flaw, and I haven't seen that. You think the people who say their phones are fine are lying/mistaken, and I don't see any reason to believe that. So I think we're at a standstill here. Thanks for the rational discussion.

Except you keep arguing the wrong point. no one is saying that there aren't people who have iPhone 4s that work perfectly. I have no doubt. None. It doesn't surprise me one bit.

But, I also believe that those same people moved to an area with worse coverage, I believe they too would be affected.

Here's another anecdote that supports this idea:
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/10348488/

My wife and I are in the process of moving right now. At our current place, our bars drop. On the other side of town, where we are moving to, I tried to replicate the problem and couldn't. So, I guess if we bought these exact same phones 3 weeks later, we could've said that our phones were not defective.

arn
 
You're just assuming the very point we're discussing.

I'm not assuming anything. Again, based on evidence posted on the net by people making videos, by tech blogs doing various tests (including a very thorough one by Anand posted earlier) and by Media outlets based on testing these devices and again, posting verifiable evidence of their results, I can safely say "design issue, 100% of iPhone 4s" for now. It's been like this for over 2 weeks now, and no one has yet to provide evidence to the contrary.

Repeat after me : People saying it's a design issue aren't assuming anything. They have evidence to back up the claim. People saying some phones aren't affected have no evidence whatsoever. Thus, there is much reason to believe one camp and not the other.

Your "let's just take everything at face value and believe both sides" doesn't help, you're just using blind faith in people you don't know. Is it because you want your future decided purchase to not have the issue and you won't believe that all iPhone 4s are affected because that would be serious questions over your plans ?

Are you biased is what I am asking ?
 
videos?

vids or it didnt happen

"he said, she said, this thread"

I can't post one since I don't have an iphone 4 let alone one that works fine.

Except you keep arguing the wrong point. no one is saying that there aren't people who have iPhone 4s that work perfectly. I have no doubt. None. It doesn't surprise me one bit.

But, I also believe that those same people moved to an area with worse coverage, I believe they too would be affected.

arn

So what about the people who say they have 2 bars and can't drop them by covering the black strip?
 
They need to FIX IT. That's all. Everybody agrees that Iphone is the best damn phone in the market today.

HOWEVER IT HAS A DESIGN FLAW... and needs to be fixed. /end of story.

Now Apple is making it worse. By lying , delaying - hoping that it'll go away....
 
lost its credibility!

Consumer Reports just lost its credibility. How can a product they cannot recommend has a very high rating from their reports. Something is smelly the way the review and rate the products. Who relies on their reviews nowadays anyway. I'm pretty much go to specific website that do specific product reviews. Then look at the forum how the consumers like the products based on their experience. Too bad I'm an iPhone 4 early adapters and you cannot find reviews and look around the forums. I always thought that iPhone 4 has a design advantage over 3GS I guess it's only the aesthetic design.
 
Consumer Reports just lost its credibility. How can a product they cannot recommend has a very high rating from their reports. Something is smelly the way the review and rate the products. Who relies on their reviews nowadays anyway. I'm pretty much go to specific website that do specific product reviews. Then look at the forum how the consumers like the products based on their experience. Too bad I'm an iPhone 4 early adapters and you cannot find reviews and look around the forums. I always thought that iPhone 4 has a design advantage over 3GS I guess it's only the aesthetic design.

I think it's very clear. If it weren't for this issue or if Apple addresses the issue with a working fix, the phone will score highest. Until they do, no recommendation since it fails in its primary function.
 
Your "let's just take everything at face value and believe both sides" doesn't help, you're just using blind faith in people you don't know. Is it because you want your future decided purchase to not have the issue and you won't believe that all iPhone 4s are affected because that would be serious questions over your plans ?

Are you biased is what I am asking ?

I'll be putting my iphone 4 in a case regardless because of the glass back, so it doesn't really matter to me personally. I'm not "biased" - I just don't think your point is proven. You have an extremely small sample compared to the number of iphone 4s sold. You cannot prove that the people saying they have no problems are lying, and you cannot prove WHY they have no problems if they in fact have no problems. Maybe it's just signal strength. But then what about the people who say they don't drop bars even when starting at low strength? They're either lying or the problem is not universal. I don't assume people are liars unless I see a motive to lie.
 
Why are those same people refusing to post video evidence if it's true ?

Seriously, what do you not understand about evidence ?

What do you not understand about the fact that I can't control what other people do or don't do? I don't know why they don't post videos! I'm not one of them, so I can't post a video, and they haven't shared with me their reasons for not doing so. Maybe they don't have cameras handy. Maybe they don't care enough. Maybe they can't follow these threads since they get about 10 posts a minute. I don't know.

My point is that I have no reason to think they're lying even in the absence of video evidence.

Ok, seriously now, I'm done. This isn't going anywhere. You're convinced and I'm not. You can think I'm an idiot, and I can think you're too easily swayed. Whatever. There's not really anything else to say on this.
 
Irrelevant article as per the usual macrumors standards. consumer reports have lost hteir credibility by virtue of too much to go into here. Get your act together you are losing crdedibility by the day macrumors. You are getting too much money to keep slivka or other shoddy amateurs reporting. Hire some proper journalists and pay them for a change, or keep reporting sub par info from other sites. :apple:
 
So what about the people who say they have 2 bars and can't drop them by covering the black strip?

as an addendum, I'll add that I do believe that some individuals are more suspeptible to shorting the two antennas by simply touching the black bar than not. be it inherent skin conductivity, or whatever.

My personal experience is that by simply "touching" the black bar does little for me. Though casually holding it in my left hand while browsing/tapping on the phone (I'm right handed) can affect the reception dramatically (if the phone has no case) -- but only in some locations. In other locations, no matter what I do, I can't get the signal to drop.

I use a bumper case now, so it's less of an issue.

I will also point out that your belief that there are only a subset defective iPhones floating around there that will be fixed simply by returning them goes against all of Apple's public statements on the fact, which simply amounts to "it's normal". If it was a very small subset of iPhones that did exhibit this behavior (as you seem to believe), then Apple would have quickly and easily told people to return those phones. The fact that they have not done so is more suggestive that every iPhone 4 (or a very large percentage of them) are affected.

arn
 
I'll be putting my iphone 4 in a case regardless because of the glass back, so it doesn't really matter to me personally. I'm not "biased" - I just don't think your point is proven. You have an extremely small sample compared to the number of iphone 4s sold. You cannot prove that the people saying they have no problems are lying, and you cannot prove WHY they have no problems if they in fact have no problems. Maybe it's just signal strength. But then what about the people who say they don't drop bars even when starting at low strength? They're either lying or the problem is not universal. I don't assume people are liars unless I see a motive to lie.

Again, I didn't say it's proven, I said it's backed up by evidence. The other side isn't. There is 0 evidence of iPhone 4s without the issue.

One side with evidence outweights the side without. If they have iPhone 4s without the issue, why refuse to post evidence ?

No one is calling them liars, people are just saying they don't understand the issue at hand, and their phone has it, they are just in a strong signal area and can't see it.

We're going around in circles. Look it's easy, just copy paste this :

"Sorry, I was wrong to assume anecdotes were as believable as claims backed up by evidence. I will be more careful to apply critical thinking next time I post things

I apologize to Arn and everyone who tried to show me the error of my way. Thank you for your patience, I now fully understand the difference between an anecdote and evidence backed claims".

You can think I'm an idiot, and I can think you're too easily swayed. Whatever. There's not really anything else to say on this.

Seriously, too easily swayed ? One side with strong evidence, reports, tests, backed up by Apple statements, by verifiable, reproduceable results and credible agencies

vs

"Hey, mine doesn't have the issue. My word is as good as any - Anonymous".

And I'm too easily swayed ? :rolleyes:

I am seriously dismayed by your posts on this subject. To see someone refuse the weight of evidence like that is baffling. All for the sake of not hinting that some people might have a misunderstanding of the issue (not saying they are liars or dumb, just misunderstanding what they are commenting on).
 
as an addendum, I'll add that I do believe that some individuals are more suspeptible to shorting the two antennas by simply touching the black bar than not. be it inherent skin conductivity, or whatever.

My personal experience is that by simply "touching" the black bar does little for me. Though casually holding it in my left hand while browsing/tapping on the phone (I'm right handed) can affect the reception dramatically (if the phone has no case).

I use a bumper case now, so it's less of an issue.

I will also point out that your belief that there are only a subset defective iPhones floating around there that will be fixed simply by returning them goes against all of Apple's public statements on the fact, which simply amounts to "it's normal". If it was a very small subset of iPhones that did exhibit this behavior (as you seem to believe), then Apple would have quickly and easily told people to return those phones. The fact that they have not done so is more suggestive that every iPhone 4 (or a very large percentage of them) are affected.

arn


Arn, that must have been your longest post (reply) that I know of! :D
 
The fix is an easy DIY

Put it in a case or get bumpers. It is a $600.00 piece of electronic equipment, not putting it in a case is asking for real trouble.

I've put every cell phone I've ever owned in a case. Back in the days when I had cheap (about $65.00) Verizon phones I'd put them in a $30.00 case. Why? Because I wanted them to look good. If I want to impress people with how good they look I take them out of the case, but otherwise they stay in the case.

With the program of giving money back on phones when you up grade like Radio Shack etc are doing it becomes even more important to keep the phone looking as good as possible for trade in time. A 20 to 50 dollar case could score you $100 or more when you go to upgrade next year to the iP5. :D
 
This post is sort of lame. Sorry Arn, the site is great but this post is a little to much.

It should not come as a surprise that the iPhone 4 rated high. At the end of the video where Consumer Reports explains why they can't recommend the iPhone 4 they explain that however the iPhone 4 is one of the highest ranked smart phones they have ever reviewed. So this is no surprise if you pay attenion to the video.

All the people saying this is not an issue for their iPhone 4 need to wake up. AnandTech, Engadget, Consumer Reports, MacRumors Arn and many others have reported a loss of 17 to 24 dbm in signal quality when touching the lower left seam. It does not have to be a death grip sometimes a pinky from a right hand can cause the drop.

Bottomline, this is real, and serious. Just look at how this topic always generates comments in all the forums. If Apple was not deleting posts in their discussion forums for iPhone 4, iPhone 4 would have more post than the other iPhones while iPhone 4 has only been out for 3 weeks or so.
 
Consumer Reports just lost its credibility. How can a product they cannot recommend has a very high rating from their reports. Something is smelly the way the review and rate the products. Who relies on their reviews nowadays anyway. I'm pretty much go to specific website that do specific product reviews. Then look at the forum how the consumers like the products based on their experience. Too bad I'm an iPhone 4 early adapters and you cannot find reviews and look around the forums. I always thought that iPhone 4 has a design advantage over 3GS I guess it's only the aesthetic design.

Actually plenty of people do. If you read the review, it's tested as a smart phone, not just as a telephone. As a smart phone it is an excellent device, but because some people INSIST on putting their fat grubby fingers on the antenna, and not use a case, they can not recommend it, because if you are in a fringe area, you might drop your call.

AGAIN... When did Steve come out and publicly say don't hold it like that ?
Not, some basement dweller sent an email.

$30 is an insane amount for a band that goes around the edge of the phone.
 
as an addendum, I'll add that I do believe that some individuals are more suspeptible to shorting the two antennas by simply touching the black bar than not. be it inherent skin conductivity, or whatever.

My personal experience is that by simply "touching" the black bar does little for me. Though casually holding it in my left hand while browsing/tapping on the phone (I'm right handed) can affect the reception dramatically (if the phone has no case) -- but only in some locations. In other locations, no matter what I do, I can't get the signal to drop.

I use a bumper case now, so it's less of an issue.

I will also point out that your belief that there are only a subset defective iPhones floating around there that will be fixed simply by returning them goes against all of Apple's public statements on the fact, which simply amounts to "it's normal". If it was a very small subset of iPhones that did exhibit this behavior (as you seem to believe), then Apple would have quickly and easily told people to return those phones. The fact that they have not done so is more suggestive that every iPhone 4 (or a very large percentage of them) are affected.

arn

Your personal experience is not journalism, while I like your style you can't get away with shoddy reporting. Hire some professional journalists and pay them for a change. This site to your credit has mushroomed, but the reporting is lamentably sub par. People go to journalist schools for a reason, hire one of them, apple's stature at the moment doesn't lend itself well to amateurs.
 
Looking at the actual CR chart, every phone they tested (including the Android phones on Verizon & Sprint) didn't fare particularly well on voice quality. They all did quite well on messaging though, including the iPhones.

So perhaps perfect was a bad choice of words...
 
Put it in a case or get bumpers. It is a $600.00 piece of electronic equipment, not putting it in a case is asking for real trouble.

I've put every cell phone I've ever owned in a case. Back in the days when I had cheap (about $65.00) Verizon phones I'd put them in a $30.00 case. Why? Because I wanted them to look good. If I want to impress people with how good they look I take them out of the case, but otherwise they stay in the case.

With the program of giving money back on phones when you up grade like Radio Shack etc are doing it becomes even more important to keep the phone looking as good as possible for trade in time. A 20 to 50 dollar case could score you $100 or more when you go to upgrade next year to the iP5. :D

Good for you. I have had many cell phones. The most recent a blackberry tour. I didn't need a case to make it work or one to keep it scratch free. Cell phone cases are a waste in my opinion unless you are really hard on your phone. Or maybe a design flaw that doesn't allow you to make calls all the time without one. LoL!
 
Bottom line:

If you want the best smartphone on the planet and are willing (and able) to slightly adjust the way you hold it (or wrap it in a case): get the iPhone.

If you want an inferior phone that lets you hold it almost any way you want: get the Droid Incredible or EVO (don't forget the extra battery).

There's no right or wrong answer here.

For those full of iPhone-related rage, return your iPhones for refunds (those of you who actually own them, of course). If Apple screwed up the design, they'll learn from this very expensive mistake, improve, and continue to sell bajillions of iPhones for years to come. This is not a life-ending (or Apple-ending) crisis, despite the naysayers' gleeful spittle.

Me, I'll keep on trucking with the best smartphone on the market with my slightly-adjusted grip. Or perhaps a case. :)
 
F'in stupid

SURE! If you selectively ignore the problems with a product, OF COURSE you can paint it as the best product ever.

OMG FORD PINTO! BEST CAR EVER!
(Ignoring the whole burst into flames when rear-ended problem.)

Please *rolls eyes*
 
If it's only a (relative) few affected, rather than a global design fault, then someone, somewhere would have already pointed out the errant piece of hardware causing it and shown how it differs from the same piece in the non-defective phones. I fail to see how this is even being argued.
 
My apartment is the worst for att coverage. However, I never miss a call or make a call. I had every iphone and am a proud owner of the iphone 4. I have always bought a case. So, if it does incidently fix the antenna issue, so be it.
 
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