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Attempted Apple Store Holdup Goes Bad: Suspect Killed
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No, you said you could bring a gun in to a bar in AZ and "party hard". A reasonable person would, based on the previous posts talking about drinking while carrying a firearm, assume that your definition of "party hard" includes drinking.
Fine. Neither of our sound-bite answers are correct.
Holding therein: "Law enforcement officers pursuing an unarmed suspect may use deadly force to prevent escape only if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
Ergo, depends on the exact circumstances and what the guard perceived as predictable ongoing consequences.
The way you responded to the post, are you saying Police can or cannot shoot at fleeing felons. The case you cited says they can use deadly force. But there is more to the judges put on the ruling then making it this cut and dry. But I hope you are saying they can with the court case you cited.
That statement in the context of lawful self defense is bizarre and really quite morally outrageous. Do you really expect people to fail to protect their own lives or the lives of others because "violence breeds further violence"?
Exactly, and the phrase I highlighted is the general rule for use of deadly force *in general.* In other words, whether they are fleeing or not, neither law enforcement nor private citizens may use deadly force unless they reasonably believe the subject poses a threat of death or great bodily harm to themselves or a bystander. Before TvG an unarmed felony suspect could be shot in the back while running away by a police officer simply because they were fleeing.
That said, this is all academic to this case. From the reports we've seen, these people were shooting out of the getaway car. It won't be hard to argue that indiscriminate gunfire as they sped away meets the requirements.
Disrespectful
Security officers are not cops. It is disrespectful to call them rent-a-cops. They are real people, with a real job, that provide real services.
Security officers are not cops. It is disrespectful to call them rent-a-cops. They are real people, with a real job, that provide real services.
I know this is on the first page, but really!
You are saying it's awesome that someone was shot and killed?
That makes you a pretty horrible person.
"Hooked on phonics"
Oh the irony, readers ....
Guns breed guns ... fact.
Actions have spoken ....
I think it's more that violence begets violence. And this time the robber/attempted murder suspect met a violent end.
Don't be silly, there's no cash there. The guys just wanted to jump to the head of the line for an iPad.
No, the case says you can't shoot a fleeing felon *just because they are fleeing.* LEOs *can* shoot a fleeing felon who is creating a danger. These guys clearly were, so it really doesn't matter.
Tennessee v. Garner is about a cop that shot an unarmed burglar in the back of the head because he was afraid he would get away. That's not the situation here.
Thing that gets me with all these gun control fanatics is that they don't realize no matter what bad people are going to get the equipment they need to continue committing crimes. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Its about damn time we as Americans and Humans start taking responsibility for our own actions instead of always blaming it on something else.
lol headshot! pwnage.
in all seriousness people die every day. take your morals and shove them where the sun don't shine. Criminals get off the hook too easily in the US. this is most likely not the first store they held up with guns. i mean whose first destination for this would be an apple store? the last heist recorded didn't go too well did it morons.
in all seriousness people die every day. take your morals and shove them where the sun don't shine. Criminals get off the hook too easily in the US. this is most likely not the first store they held up with guns. i mean whose first destination for this would be an apple store? the last heist recorded didn't go too well did it morons.
It's a sad state of America when people are so quick to defend the armed robbers. Would you still be crying about the guard shooting the robber in the head if the guard ended up dying? It's so easy to judge sitting at home/office in your comfortable chair never being in a true life threatening situation. I'd like to see how these robber defenders would be able to handle that.
Be careful...
Be careful and more importantly get informed. It took me all of one minute to find the story online from the local newspaper in San Diego. Two whole paragraphs later I discovered that the security guard was inside the store with the manager and that at least two of the suspects were armed with guns and that at least one of them fired his weapon. As for calling the security guard a rent a cop, well that is probably true. He most likely is a real cop and does private security to pay his bills and put his kids through college. I know cops with three jobs on top of their regular police work. Civil servants tend to be underpaid, despite what you may have seen in the news lately. No reason to insult someone just because they work security at the mall. This guy was in plain clothes, so it seems that there may be some security risk at the store.
BTW, if you bring a gun with you to commit a crime, the onus of guilt in your own or the deaths of others is on you, not the victim of the crime or the cop that shot you. If you do not bring a gun or other weapon, then the responsibility weighs heavier on the cop. These guys brought guns and therefore raised the level of possible violence and caused their own demise. My God, I'm a freakin' liberal and I understand that much of this argument.
Be careful and more importantly get informed. It took me all of one minute to find the story online from the local newspaper in San Diego. Two whole paragraphs later I discovered that the security guard was inside the store with the manager and that at least two of the suspects were armed with guns and that at least one of them fired his weapon. As for calling the security guard a rent a cop, well that is probably true. He most likely is a real cop and does private security to pay his bills and put his kids through college. I know cops with three jobs on top of their regular police work. Civil servants tend to be underpaid, despite what you may have seen in the news lately. No reason to insult someone just because they work security at the mall. This guy was in plain clothes, so it seems that there may be some security risk at the store.
BTW, if you bring a gun with you to commit a crime, the onus of guilt in your own or the deaths of others is on you, not the victim of the crime or the cop that shot you. If you do not bring a gun or other weapon, then the responsibility weighs heavier on the cop. These guys brought guns and therefore raised the level of possible violence and caused their own demise. My God, I'm a freakin' liberal and I understand that much of this argument.
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I'm going to call BS on this, since according to the CDC there are 2,423,712 deaths a year in the US, I think that data is from 07, but you are telling me that 82.5% of the deaths in the US are from private citizens shooting criminals during their crimes?
I said nothing to the kind. I was responding to the implication that I didn't " know what it's like to live in fear of dangerous criminals", and that I was " merely engaging in cafe philosophy not grounded in reality."
I have never, ever suggested that people should not defend themselves. Rather, I question the sanguine reactions of some people to the incident in the OP. There is an eagerness for killing among some posters that I find quite disturbing. There is a difference between relief that the guard survived the attack, and a bloodshot, mouth-foaming joy over the event and the use of video game and Hollywood allusions as if the whole event was a scene from a film.
Cops get more leeway on the fuzzy line of "...significant threat of death or serious physical injury to ... others." Citizens are more limited to addressing threats to themselves or immediate family/friends/acquaintances, and more soon subject to the limitation of "not your problem."
Yup. In Japan and China, nutsos go berserk with a butcher knife and go on a killing rampage. Knives must be evil too. Blended food for all!
You make it sound like the event was started by the security guard walking up to the robbery in progress and shooting first. Not an impossible scenario but we've heard absolutely nothing to suggest that's what happened.
Bottom line is, if you use a weapon to commit a crime, you've got no reason to expect anybody else not to use a weapon to defend themselves or their property.
Not that the guy "deserves" our sympathy... but you have to look at this from a human perspective.
Yes - the guy was a criminal. No excuses for what he was attempting to do in the robbery.
But for those saying the guy deserved to be shot or are "happy" he died - please, think about what you are saying.
I'm not saying the guy that died was a good guy. I'm glad the security personnel are OK, and was not the one who died. I'm sure the security personnel's actions were justifiable. But he had a family. He has parents who are suffering immensely right now. He may have a child who will grow up without a father.
There is no reason to celebrate the death of any person - even if they were a criminal.
Yes - the guy was a criminal. No excuses for what he was attempting to do in the robbery.
But for those saying the guy deserved to be shot or are "happy" he died - please, think about what you are saying.
I'm not saying the guy that died was a good guy. I'm glad the security personnel are OK, and was not the one who died. I'm sure the security personnel's actions were justifiable. But he had a family. He has parents who are suffering immensely right now. He may have a child who will grow up without a father.
There is no reason to celebrate the death of any person - even if they were a criminal.
Like the rest of the world is that much of an example to us, car bombings are a constant in places that are not USA, not that they don't happen here, but more often than not they happen in other countries and they are more serious than gun in most cases. Not only that but the guy was intent to do damage to the guard and steal property that wasn't his own. The Guard had every right to defend himself. This isn't just an American right, but the right of everyone human being. It was self defense. And for all the people defending the suspect, your wrong, he went there with a gun, intent on doing damage and intent on hurting this guard, not to mention steal a lot of property that he gave no creative effort in making. Therefore he not only knew the risks but deserved what he got. He should not have been there and he knew that and he should not have pointed a gun at a lone guard, period. People have to take responsibility for their actions.
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I wonder if the security guard was an ex marine? Lol but that's good training!!
I wonder if the security guard was an ex marine? Lol but that's good training!!