Australian Banks Challenge Apple Over Mobile Payment App Restrictions

[fischersd]

Why do I want to whip out my phone...chip and pin. All my cards have the chip now.

To be clear - chip+pin is not the same as contactless payment. Chip+pin is very much contact-FULL payment - you put card into reader, enter pin, it says pin ok, transaction gets authorized. Contactless payment / Pay - you tap the terminal when wave icon displayed, token is sent, transaction completed. (less effort).
As for pulling out phone vs taking out wallet, removing card from wallet and the reverse? I find it's less effort to take my iPhone out of my pocket. (or, even better, I pay with my Watch)

If I forget my phone like I did the other day and I went into the city I'm screwed.

How is that different than forgetting your wallet at home?

 

[I7guy]

Well you are one lucky guy then, but there are billions of people with cards using different banks having different rules. I know some very different stories.
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You can do whatever you want. That's up to you, but why are you ignoring the valid reason why Apple Pay is useful to many people? It's not about likes, dislikes or opinions. It has factual advantages over regular plastic.

Amex is on top of this stuff and I do have it hooked up to my Apple Pay. My son was using Apple Pay in the city, and in a safe store in a safe neighborhood he had an incident of somebody either trying to get his phone or phone information.

I'd rather pull out my card than lose my phone.

 

[TechGeek76]

Well, whilst they are at it, I wish iOS was able to read RFID tags for example.
It's quite frustrating to know that the hardware is there, but you can't use it for anything but Apple Pay (which by the way... is nowhere to be seen in Germany, but even if...)

So yeah... Thing is, I'd love to tag a couple of things I seem to frequently misplace or tag boxes in the attic, so when I'm up there all I'd need to do was scan the surrounding tags and immediately be able to find whatever I'm looking for.

Long term goal is to never ever have to look for items longer than it takes to breeze through a couple of rooms anymore.


Yeah, let's all praise Apple and dodge when they offer something, willingly weakening competition, because Apple clearly shines the most the less competition they face... /s

Glassed Silver:mac

Why rely on Apple to read tags? I've been looking into these https://www.thetrackr.com/

Seems pretty neat.

 

[I7guy]

To be clear - chip+pin is not the same as contactless payment. Chip+pin is very much contact-FULL payment - you put card into reader, enter pin, it says pin ok, transaction gets authorized. Contactless payment / Pay - you tap the terminal when wave icon displayed, token is sent, transaction completed. (less effort).
As for pulling out phone vs taking out wallet, removing card from wallet and the reverse? I find it's less effort to take my iPhone out of my pocket. (or, even better, I pay with my Watch)


How is that different than forgetting your wallet at home?

Let's be clear, chip and pin is secure and my plastic card can be dropped, stepped on etc. I carry my cc with my money in my pants pocket. I don't grab the card out of my wallet. Grab card, stick in slot, remove one second later.

 

[EricTheHalfBee]

Why do I want to whip out my phone...chip and pin. All my cards have the chip now.

1. Take phone from pocket (that is, IF I'm not already holding it).
2. Tap to terminal.
3. Finished.

vs

1. Take wallet from pocket.
2. Open wallet and remove the card I want to use.
3. Inset Chip card into terminal.
4. Click OK when prompted to accept purchase amount.
5. Select savings or chequing account (if debit card).
6. Enter PIN.
7. Wait until Approved message comes up.
8. Remove card and insert back into wallet.
9. Put wallet back into pocket.

 

[doelcm82]

Couldn't care less about theft if my credit card falls out of my wallet. Covered 100%. But chip and pin mitigates this. Don't know why you conveniently ignored this

Apple Pay mitigates it better. When properly implemented, your fingerprint replaces the PIN, so it eliminates the steps of removing your wallet, fishing for the card, inserting the card into the chip reader, entering your PIN, replacing the card in your wallet, and putting your wallet back in your pocket or purse.

Credit cards would be much more secure and convenient if you walked around with your card in your hand the way people often do with phones, and if they had fingerprint readers built into them like an iPhone does, and if they communicated wirelessly with the reader like iPhone, and mobile phones do (some cards do this too), and if they could be used for other functions like sending email and text, making voice calls, and hunting Pokemon.

If your credit card could do all that the iPhone can do, you wouldn't need a mobile phone. And if the mobile phone could do all that the credit card could do, and do it for multiple accounts, you wouldn't need to carry around all those plastic cards. We're more likely to get to the second scenario than the first, thought mobile phones might be as thin as credit cards soon. We'll probably still call the devices "phones" rather than "credit cards" though.

 

[I7guy]

1. Take phone from pocket (that is, IF I'm not already holding it).
2. Tap to terminal.
3. Finished.

vs

1. Take wallet from pocket.
2. Open wallet and remove the card I want to use.
3. Inset Chip card into terminal.
4. Click OK when prompted to accept purchase amount.
5. Select savings or chequing account (if debit card).
6. Enter PIN.
7. Wait until Approved message comes up.
8. Remove card and insert back into wallet.
9. Put wallet back into pocket.

While in line:
- grab card from pocket
- insert card
- enter pin
- remove card
- oops dropped card ; no harm no foul

 

[RedOrchestra]

1. Take phone from pocket (that is, IF I'm not already holding it).
2. Tap to terminal.
3. Finished.

OR

1. Take card from wallet
2. Tap to terminal
3. Finished

 

[fischersd]

Why rely on Apple to read tags? I've been looking into these https://www.thetrackr.com/

Seems pretty neat.

Yeah, I saw that advertised somewhere - was pretty quick to forward it to the Tile guys (https://www.thetileapp.com). (one of these companies is guilty of IP theft - be interesting to see who holds the patents).

 

[Reason077]

(Australian) Consumer beware: they are trying to make it sound like it's a matter of consumer choice, however, the Apple Pay system is based in the phone for the consumer's security, putting things outside the phone makes it vulnerable and gives the banks more access to consumer's private info., puts the ball in the court of the banks and out of the hands of the consumer.

I agree with you, but this isn't really a privacy issue. Your bank already has access to all your personal information, and knows exactly where you're spending your money - whether you use Apple Pay or not!

 

[Glassed Silver]

Why rely on Apple to read tags? I've been looking into these https://www.thetrackr.com/

Seems pretty neat.

This isn't RFID, so it's not really great for what I'm trying to achieve.

RFID is low-cost, close-range and needs no batteries on everything that I attach a tag to.

Would you local library but BT trackers into every book? No they wouldn't. Why would they not? Well...

Glassed Silver:mac

 

[RedOrchestra]

I agree with you, but this isn't really a privacy issue. Your bank already has access to all your personal information, and knows exactly where you're spending your money - whether you use Apple Pay or not!

After all, the bank is the one who tied your card number(s) to your device number.

Which is why, if the bank's algorithms see anything that is outside of your usual buying pattern, they quickly call you - and that is all good.

 

[TechGeek76]

Yeah, I saw that advertised somewhere - was pretty quick to forward it to the Tile guys (https://www.thetileapp.com). (one of these companies is guilty of IP theft - be interesting to see who holds the patents).

I was looking at the tile as well. It seems a little boxy to me.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Typical approach of a banking cartel:
- speak of vibrant competition while actually preserving status quo or consolidating;
- reap profits;
- fund politicians;
- receive desired legislation and political support;
- raise barriers to entry for potential new competitors;
- privatize profits while protecting for socialized risk;
- avoid innovation and customer oriented investment (unless it dramatically decreases operating expenses);
- if you do innovate, take off the shelf systems that you can control (vendor must always be subordinate);
- if a new entrant appears boycott;
- if new entrant's efforts gain traction, raise regulatory challenges;
- if regulatory system doesn't belong to your lobbying organization, begin negotiations to work with vendor with hope that regulatory threats, or homegrown alternatives will be enough to tame demands of vendor.

If if the system isn't corrupt, then for the banking cartel to get in bed with a strong vendor, it takes customers switching loyalties to a competitor get things moving, and something like the Kubler Ross stages of grieving to get through.

 

[EricTheHalfBee]

OR

1. Take card from wallet
2. Tap to terminal
3. Finished

No.

1. Take wallet from pocket.
2. Remove card from wallet.
3. Tap card.
4. Put card back into wallet.
5. Put wallet back into pocket.
6. Hope the merchant terminal didn't record your card number and CVN when you used it.

 

[doelcm82]

While in line:
- grab card from pocket
- insert card
- enter pin
- remove card
- oops dropped card ; no harm no foul

You have only one card. I have several. What works for you won't work for me.

I'd like a future where I have no cards, just several accounts on my phone. Move all my card accounts into a digital wallet on my phone, including loyalty cards, credit cards, temporary cards like hotel room keys, and access keys for buildings at work and my home. Even car keys and ID cards. All secured by my fingerprint or other easy biometric ID.

 

[EricTheHalfBee]

I was looking at the tile as well. It seems a little boxy to me.

Hey, it's Mr. NVMe guy. Still waiting for you to list all those other mobile devices that use NVMe (like you so vehemently claimed existed).
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You have only one card. I have several. What works for you won't work for me.

I'd like a future where I have no cards, just several accounts on my phone. Move all my card accounts into a digital wallet on my phone, including loyalty cards, credit cards, temporary cards like hotel room keys, and access keys for buildings at work and my home. Even car keys and ID cards. All secured by my fingerprint or other easy biometric ID.

This is where Apple needs to step things up with Apple Pay - the area of rewards cards and other types of contactless cards that are not used simply for making purchases. Like transit passes.

 

[CristianM]

How is giving people one option (the bank's wallet), choice for the Australians?

 

[RedOrchestra]

No.

1. Take wallet from pocket.
2. Remove card from wallet.
3. Tap card.
4. Put card back into wallet.
5. Put wallet back into pocket.
6. Hope the merchant terminal didn't record your card number and CVN when you used it.

I know, you're a busy bee and 1-2 seconds is just intolerable.

 

[EricTheHalfBee]

I know, you're a busy bee and 1-2 seconds is just intolerable.

Hey genius, I already stated previously that the time saving between using your phone and card is minimal. Security is the reason I use Apple Pay, not because it's 2 seconds faster. I was responding to i7guy regarding chip/PIN, which is much slower.

 

[britboyj]

I'm sure the security folk at your place of work would be very, very, unhappy if you were to do this. If you want a workaround, you should talk to them directly rather than trying to come up with one on your own.

Oh I don't disagree, there's definitely a serious case for abuse of such a technology, however any solution that could potentially let me take my access card out of my wallet (we don't have to wear them, they're just RFID cards) is a win.

Maybe Apple could let you create an RFID identifier that you could then "teach" a security system. Works just like Passbook, requires thumbprint to activate.

 

[Michael Goff]

Let's be clear, chip and pin is secure and my plastic card can be dropped, stepped on etc. I carry my cc with my money in my pants pocket. I don't grab the card out of my wallet. Grab card, stick in slot, remove one second later.

One second later? Must be nice. Whenever I have to use a chip card, it's a good fifteen seconds before the machine says I'm able to take my card out.

 

[RedOrchestra]

One second later? Must be nice. Whenever I have to use a chip card, it's a good fifteen seconds before the machine says I'm able to take my card out.

That's POS terminal related - I've had similar Approval wait-times using Apple Pay.

On the other hand, I think the NEW Chase POS terminals are THE best on the market right now ... I swear it's doing the check-mark / ping while I'm still getting the phone out of my pocket.

 

[doelcm82]

This is where Apple needs to step things up with Apple Pay - the area of rewards cards and other types of contactless cards that are not used simply for making purchases. Like transit passes.

Agree 100%. It's expensive to produce cards for short-term access like hotel keys and boarding passes, but it costs almost nothing to create and transmit them electronically. Using NFC, it would be cost-effective to produce things like transit day-passes for tourists.

 

[American Hero]

The problem is Australia are way too ahead with payment technology. We don't allow signature anymore its all PIN. MasterCard and Visa Paypass is just about everywhere and most people actually use it, and all the major banks have their own mobile payment that allows Android phones NFC to pay.

Exactly. If the biggest [payment] problem in Australia is, "you need to open up NFC so we can add a third type of NFC transaction to the pile," then it's really not a problem at all. I'm sure the AP transaction fees are at rock bottom, so there's no reason for Apple to open up their OS to vulnerabilities to find a "solution" that already exists with AP and contactless credit cards.