Baseball Hall of Fame

Unspeaked

macrumors 68020
Dec 29, 2003
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He retired last year, his win total is 270 ish I believe.
His last season was 2008 - if he makes it, it's for that last season (20-9, 3.37 ERA).

Other than that, the guy never had a 20 win season, didn't read 300 career wins and never won a Cy Young or World Series title. A really great pitcher of his generation, and probably as close as you can get to HOF worthy without being in, but I still wouldn't vote for him.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
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I don't understand the hall of fame. Are players inducted whenever they feel like doing it? Or is it a once a year thing.

I noticed Andre Dawson was just inducted.
A player has to have played for 10 years and to be retired for 5 years after playing. The writers have to vote them in with 75% or higher votes. After 14 years your name comes off the ballot.
Players are currently inducted into the Hall of Fame through election by either the Baseball Writers Association of America (or BBWAA), or the Veterans Committee,[9] which is now composed of living Hall of Famers; additional special committees, some including recipients of the two major awards, are also regularly formed to make selections. Five years after retirement, any player with 10 years of major league experience who passes a screening committee (which removes from consideration players of clearly lesser qualification) is eligible to be elected by BBWAA members with 10 years' membership or more. From a final ballot typically including 25–40 candidates, each writer may vote for up to 10 players; until the late 1950s, voters were advised to cast votes for the maximum 10 candidates. Any player named on 75% or more of all ballots cast is elected. A player who is named on fewer than 5% of ballots is dropped from future elections. In some instances, the screening committee had restored their names to later ballots, but in the mid-1990s, dropped players were made permanently ineligible for Hall of Fame consideration, even by the Veterans Committee. A 2001 change in the election procedures restored the eligibility of these dropped players; while their names will not appear on future BBWAA ballots, they may be considered by the Veterans Committee.
 

Peace

Cancelled
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A player has to have played for 10 years and to be retired for 5 years after playing. The writers have to vote them in with 75% or higher votes. After 14 years your name comes off the ballot.
I understand the requirements.

I don't understand WHEN they do it.:)

[edit] well thanks for editing faster than me!! LOL.

So Randy Johnson won't be eligible for 5 more years?
[/edit]
 

sysiphus

macrumors 6502a
May 7, 2006
816
1
Yeah, I think rings shouldn't come into play either since a lot of that isn't up to the player - they're at the mercy of being on a good team. I just think rings and awards are a Plan B category voters look at for players on the edge (and I think Martinez is one of those players).

I really think the discussion on him begins and ends with longevity. If he had played another 4 or 5 years, I think he's a no brainer. But he just isn't HOF worthy with his current stats. A lot of this is due to the fact the guy didn't get a break in the majors until his late 20s. If he had been in the majors at 21 or 22, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Another name that came to mind while thinking about Edgar Martinez was Bernie Williams. He played around the same time, in the same league and was with one team his entire career. His offensive numbers are similar to Edgar's, but a little worse. The difference is rings and while I don't think Williams should be in the Hall, either, I would vote for him before I'd vote for Edgar.

Still curious what more you have to say, though... half the fun of baseball is debates like this!
I'm a bit curious--first you said that rings shouldn't come in to play, then compared Edgar and Bernie, and stated that Bernie's offensive stats are worse than Edgar's but he has more rings...and that you'd vote in Bernie before Edgar...so I assume that you either a) do think rings should count, or just b) think Bernie was one hell of a fielder.

Yeah, if Edgar had gotten out of the minors in his early 20s, I doubt there'd be any argument. Longevity should be the only sticking point for him. Really, though, his slash line shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was one of the best, most complete hitters in the game during his tenure. There's a reason so few players can get a 300/400/500 or better slash line--and if I remember correctly, all but two of them who are Hall-eligible are in.

Even if you just look at batting average, he had a lifetime .312 and seven seasons of .320 or higher (and mind you, his batting average wasn't propped up by infield singles like Ichiro [who should be a hall lock, but on different merits])...since WWII, only eight righties have had six or more .320 seasons--Albert Pujols and Hank Aaron (eight each); Roberto Clemente, Molitor, Edgar, Manny Ramirez and Derek Jeter (seven); and Vlad Guerrero (six). Then look at OPS+...Edgar Martinez reached 150 or better eight times. Only 24 players have done it that many times, and the other 23 are inner-circle Hall of Famers (Aaron, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle and Mike Schmidt) or will be (Pujols, Ramierez) The only exception is Dick Allen. (taken from ESPN).

My feeling is that his performance while he was playing was eminently hall-worthy...his only possible problem is not playing long enough for milestone numbers in some of the more popular categories. With that said, there's certainly precedent for electing somebody who was brilliant over a shorter career.
 

sysiphus

macrumors 6502a
May 7, 2006
816
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His last season was 2008 - if he makes it, it's for that last season (20-9, 3.37 ERA).

Other than that, the guy never had a 20 win season, didn't read 300 career wins and never won a Cy Young or World Series title. A really great pitcher of his generation, and probably as close as you can get to HOF worthy without being in, but I still wouldn't vote for him.
Yup, don't think he should make it. He was quite good, but not quite there--if he gets in, it's because he made his name in Yankee pinstripes, not because of his numbers. Kind of the opposite effect of Edgar Martinez, who most people never saw except in playoffs and All-Star games...put 'Gar on the Yankees of the 90s and I bet most people wouldn't be debating his eligibility.
 

sysiphus

macrumors 6502a
May 7, 2006
816
1
Ok, so what active players do you consider locks for the Hall of Fame? Guys who if their careers ended today, they'd be in?

I'm thinking:

LOCKS

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
Trever Hoffman
Albert Pujols
Ichiro Suzuki
Derek Jeter
Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Alex Rodriguez

DEBATABLE

John Smoltz
Billy Wagner
Todd Helton
Vladimir Guerrero
Chipper Jones
Ivan Rodriguez
Gary Sheffield
Jim Thome
Carlos Delgado
Scott Rolen
Omar Vizquel


Opinions...?
I generally like your list, but would strike A-Roid and Manny from your list. Both lied about PEDs, both got caught, and neither has begun to show remorse. Pettite is the only exposed PED guy of any note whose handled it appropriately...and even he should make voters do a double-take, if he's worthy. Your mileage may vary.
I re-watched game 5 of the 95 ALDS the other night, and it struck me just how much A-Rod ballooned out after he started doing PEDs...he wasn't much bigger than me when he first showed up in the big leagues.
 

aloofman

macrumors 68020
Dec 17, 2002
2,206
0
Socal
Ok, so what active players do you consider locks for the Hall of Fame? Guys who if their careers ended today, they'd be in?

I'm thinking:

Opinions...?
I'm generally OK with all of those locks. As sysiphus pointed out, the PED issue might hold Rodriguez and Manny back, although by the time either of them is eligible, we might know of so many steroid users that we won't even care. (For example, Mark McGwire admitted it today.) I think Ichiro will be the first Japanese player to get in.

Of those debatables, I can think of three that will get in. Chipper Jones has put up career numbers that are right up there with most of the third basemen in the HOF. In fact, 3B is the least-represented position in the Hall. Jones is clearly the best third baseman to come along since Mike Schmidt, had a very good glove, hit for power and average from both sides of the plate. I'm not sure what more you could want. I wasn't thinking about him as a potential candidate in, say, 2005, but I think he's pretty much a lock now.

Ivan Rodriguez was the best catcher since Johnny Bench. Even if you discount his offense because of the steroid era, he was the best at fielding his position for at least a decade. Only a handful of catchers in history can say that. He's in.

I think Vizquel has a decent chance of getting in for great defense, a la Mazeroski or Ozzie Smith.
 

str1f3

macrumors 68000
Aug 24, 2008
1,859
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I'm generally OK with all of those locks. As sysiphus pointed out, the PED issue might hold Rodriguez and Manny back, although by the time either of them is eligible, we might know of so many steroid users that we won't even care. (For example, Mark McGwire admitted it today.) I think Ichiro will be the first Japanese player to get in.

Of those debatables, I can think of three that will get in. Chipper Jones has put up career numbers that are right up there with most of the third basemen in the HOF. In fact, 3B is the least-represented position in the Hall. Jones is clearly the best third baseman to come along since Mike Schmidt, had a very good glove, hit for power and average from both sides of the plate. I'm not sure what more you could want. I wasn't thinking about him as a potential candidate in, say, 2005, but I think he's pretty much a lock now.

Ivan Rodriguez was the best catcher since Johnny Bench. Even if you discount his offense because of the steroid era, he was the best at fielding his position for at least a decade. Only a handful of catchers in history can say that. He's in.

I think Vizquel has a decent chance of getting in for great defense, a la Mazeroski or Ozzie Smith.
McGwire can never be allowed as the rest of these other players who were on the juice. If they get in it validates their stats and what they did to get there. Baseball is a tradition that is based on stats. While people can try to weigh how long the person was on it against their career stats, McGwire was on it for basically his whole career.
 

sysiphus

macrumors 6502a
May 7, 2006
816
1
McGwire can never be allowed as the rest of these other players who were on the juice. If they get in it validates their stats and what they did to get there. Baseball is a tradition that is based on stats. While people can try to weigh how long the person was on it against their career stats, McGwire was on it for basically his whole career.
Agreed. Even with massive amounts of talent (A-Rod and Manny definitely have it), they (and their stats) lose all credibility across the board as soon as they get caught. One of my favorite players, Mike Cameron, got caught, too--almost made me glad that he was never a massive numbers guy, because I didn't like him for his bat...but even with him, if he were hall-worthy (almost certainly not), I'd preclude him because of the PEDs.

All of this is part of why I find Ichiro so massively appealing--he doesn't succeed because of massive muscle/power...rather, he's meticulous about stretching (imagine how much more durable Ken Griffey Jr would have been if he'd done the same), and plays a totally unique small-ball game that would be almost nonsensical to argue is boosted by PEDs.
 

Unspeaked

macrumors 68020
Dec 29, 2003
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I'm a bit curious--first you said that rings shouldn't come in to play, then compared Edgar and Bernie, and stated that Bernie's offensive stats are worse than Edgar's but he has more rings...and that you'd vote in Bernie before Edgar...so I assume that you either a) do think rings should count, or just b) think Bernie was one hell of a fielder.
Let me clarify.

Personally, I don't think rings should play a part in voting at all.

I think that for the HOF committee, they play a secondary role for people who are borderline on their stats alone. Some guys who wouldn't get in based on their career stats are given the benefit of the doubt because of rings (usually Yankees fall into this category, but some people tried to unsuccessfully make this argument for Dave Concepcion and others).

In my comment, I said I'd vote for Bernie over Edgar if I had to choose one, and my reason would be rings - but only as a tie-breaker. I think I made it pretty clear that I would prefer to vote for neither if I could.


imagine how much more durable Ken Griffey Jr would have been if he'd done the same
Griffey at least ties Ted Williams (who lost his prime years to the war) for baseball's massive "What If?"

What if he had been healthy his entire career? In the late 90s, everyone thought Griffey was going to blow away every record imaginable. Even with totally lost years in the 00s, he's got one of the most impressive baseball resumes of all time. Imagine those 5+ years that slipped through the cracks.

(And The Kid has never been involved in the PED discussion, even to this day!)
 

sysiphus

macrumors 6502a
May 7, 2006
816
1
Let me clarify.

Personally, I don't think rings should play a part in voting at all.

I think that for the HOF committee, they play a secondary role for people who are borderline on their stats alone. Some guys who wouldn't get in based on their career stats are given the benefit of the doubt because of rings (usually Yankees fall into this category, but some people tried to unsuccessfully make this argument for Dave Concepcion and others).

In my comment, I said I'd vote for Bernie over Edgar if I had to choose one, and my reason would be rings - but only as a tie-breaker. I think I made it pretty clear that I would prefer to vote for neither if I could.




Griffey at least ties Ted Williams (who lost his prime years to the war) for baseball's massive "What If?"

What if he had been healthy his entire career? In the late 90s, everyone thought Griffey was going to blow away every record imaginable. Even with totally lost years in the 00s, he's got one of the most impressive baseball resumes of all time. Imagine those 5+ years that slipped through the cracks.

(And The Kid has never been involved in the PED discussion, even to this day!)
Fair enough, I see what you're getting at with rings, Edgar, and Bernie.

No kidding about Griffey and the What Ifs. It was so fun watching him play here in Seattle in the 90s! A small selfish part of me is glad that almost all his glory years came in Seattle, though...so there's no doubt he's going to go into the Hall wearing a Seattle cap.

I was never a huge Griffey fan after he left, though. Team loyalty is rare in this era, especially with superstars. Sure, it was fun to get him back last year (even though it doesn't make sense by the numbers...), but he's not Mr. Mariner the way Edgar is. ( After he left for Cinci, he lost my (and many other Seattlites') pick as favorite Mariner...Edgar never had the ego that the Kid did, he did a lot more for the community, and he was a lifelong Mariner. Still, regardless of the order, it's hard to think that most people around here wouldn't list Ichiro, Griffey, and Edgar as favorite Mariners. But I digress...)
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
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This years class. Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, John Smoltz and Craig Biggio were elected into the Baseball Hall of Fame on Tuesday.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,061
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For me, if you played in the 1980's and 1990's you were probably on something......... I have a feeling there are users who are in already.

Just my personal opinion of course.
Without valid testing we don't know who is clean or not. We are speculating on Bonds and Clemens. While we are fairly certain there is no proof. So for the writers to pick who was clean or not will never work. So we either say you might have used or not but if you had the numbers I don't know if they can keep people out

The voting process is a sham anyways. We need to revamp how players are elected.
 

MacNut

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Jan 4, 2002
22,061
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Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Piazza elected to the 2016 class of the Baseball Hall of Fame.
 

Algus

macrumors regular
Jun 8, 2014
222
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Arizona
Was wearing my Griffey jersey all day in show of support. Edgar Martinez got about 20% more votes this year than he has in years past. I think all of the campaigning people have been doing for him is helping.

I get it, I don't like DH either. I actually like NL rules more but Martinez was one of the best to play at the DH and hardly missed time during his entire career. I'd be thrilled to see him get in.

I wished Jr had stayed in Seattle.
I wish Seattle had something resembling a farm system! I love Felix but it feels like he's been the only highlight for the past fifteen years. Oh, it's tough being an Ms fan. Least I've got the Seahawks in the fall.
[doublepost=1452159719][/doublepost]Was wearing my Griffey jersey all day in show of support. Edgar Martinez got about 20% more votes this year than he has in years past. I think all of the campaigning people have been doing for him is helping.

I get it, I don't like DH either. I actually like NL rules more but Martinez was one of the best to play at the DH and hardly missed time during his entire career. I'd be thrilled to see him get in.

I wished Jr had stayed in Seattle.
I wish Seattle had something resembling a farm system so they could have replaced him! I love Felix but it feels like he's been the only highlight for the past fifteen years. Oh, it's tough being an Ms fan. Least I've got the Seahawks in the fall.

I miss the guys from Griffey's era: Buhner, Martinez, Randy Johnson (least he came down to AZ for the DBacks so I got to watch all his starts still). These were some of my favorite baseball players.
 
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