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Under Bernie Sanders? Corporations pay more in taxes, people pay a little less, higher education becomes more affordable through various subsidies, and thus more widespread, strengthening the job market. The middle class becomes awash in money again, strengthening it and the economy in the process. In about 10 years, things get hunky dory again.

It's unlikely it'll happen quite this well, but the above is the major goal of all the so-called commie socialists.
And what happens when major corporations and the wealthy decide to leave the US and not pay into Bernie's plan for all of these excessivley higher taxes? Free college education for all, funded by corporate America and the 1%? What a joke. Let me ask, who ends up paying for all the freebee handouts once this burden has shifted to the middle class? Oh yeah, we get a situation similar as with Greece. Good one. Change your name to hoodwinked.
 
Um, you do know that the proportional cost of living in China means those people working at Foxconn make a solid living, right? What YOU want is for America to collect taxes on everything around the world so that you can reap ridiculous social programs that you THINK you deserve.

I'm conservative, chief. But I do love to point out out the hypocrisy of limousine liberals. Like you?
 
It's very disrespectful you use the comment "Yawwwn". Clearly your parents didn't teach you any manners.

Putting that aside you have completely missed the point. Tim Cook is trying to pretend they use Chinese manufacturers because they are skilled rather than cheap. That's patently not true. The other companies mentioned haven't made such ridiculous statements to my knowledge. What I find offensive is Tim Cook's blatant lies not the fact that they manufacture in China. Just be honest about the reasons.

So you have proof of these lies that Tim Cook has spoken? If not then that would be very disrespectful. Clearly your parents didn't teach you any manners. :oops:
 
Okay, here's a primer on our debt. We're going to use Social Security as the go-to example, since, well...it's what's taken from the most.

See, government debt is different from personal debt, since it's owed primarily to other programs and entitlements under their own umbrella, rather than to other people. Yeah, there is a fairly decent sized percent of our debt is owned by Japan and China, but it's not the majority, and they're never going to collect on it. For them, it's assurance of our constant cooperation.

...and it'd crash all our economies if they tried.

For the most part, it's the government moving money around to pay for other things. If it borrows $1 trillion from Social Security to pay for a new type of tank that won't see deployment for 30 years, that's just money shifted, not money borrowed. There are no debt collectors, no pressing need to pay that money back ASAP. So long as Social Security remains solvent, it could be paid back at any time in any amount.

That money is owed ultimately by we the people, and the only reason why we'd demand an immediate collection is if we suddenly can't collect Social Security. There'd be a reckoning then, I'm sure, but it wouldn't break the country.

And there's the rub - it will collapse, unless it it vigorously reformed. I understand about the moving of monies to priorities, but, one day, the cookie jar will be empty if socialism continues to steal from it.

I am constantly reminded of Mr. Pickwick, of Pickwick Papers, and his sage advice on economics.Also: Mr. Micawber's famous quote in David Copperfield.

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Charles Dickens, David Copperfield
 
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And there's the rub - it will collapse, unless it it vigorously reformed. I understand about the moving of monies to priorities, but, one day, the cookie jar will be empty if socialism continues to steal from it.

Funny thing is, it's our so called socialist programs that have suffered the most since Reagan. Social Security, as I already pointed out, is raided daily. We no longer offer many federal grants for education, most of them having long since been replaced them with student loans, which the government makes a ton of money from off the interest. Welfare makes up around 5% of our budget, and last I read, is only running at 80% planned capacity. Healthcare is the only thing that costs us a ton of money, but the majority of that goes to our veterans and elderly.

The vast majority of our budget, nearly 60% all in all, is spent on our military adventurism and R&D, with a goodly chunk going to corporate welfare via tax breaks and subsidies.

And taxes, by the way, are probably one of the reasons why we're having to borrow so much from all our various programs. We don't tax the wealthier part of our economy nearly as much as we used to (and has the Panama Papers have shown us, they've been finding ways to skip out on even paying that, almost at the courtesy of the US government), and even the middle class is having fun with lower than historical average taxes. We just don't have the income we once did. And it's not because our economy as a whole is weak. We're still #1 in the world on that front, and our businesses are enjoying record profits. It's that we can't pay for anything, military or social, without having the taxes there to pay for it.
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And what happens when major corporations and the wealthy decide to leave the US and not pay into Bernie's plan for all of these excessivley higher taxes? Free college education for all, funded by corporate America and the 1%? What a joke. Let me ask, who ends up paying for all the freebee handouts once this burden has shifted to the middle class? Oh yeah, we get a situation similar as with Greece. Good one. Change your name to hoodwinked.

First off, what's going on in Greece is absolutely nothing like what's going on here.

Secondly, Bernie's plans are more akin to the social initiatives presidents such as Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and even Nixon put into play long, long ago. He's more about returning us to the old standard we've been moving away from since the 80's than trying out something brand new. Our welfare and freebie handouts everyone loves griping about are at the lowest they've been since the 40's.

Thirdly, with corporate profits at record highs, middle class wages stagnating since the late 70's, corporate taxes the lowest they've been since the 30's, with the largest majority of our companies not even paying that, and corporate welfare the highest it's ever been, how much corporate ass do we have to kiss to make sure they remain happy? I mean hell, we're in the process of giving up our middle class to maintain their profit margins as we speak. Don't you think we're handing too much economic power into the hands of a select few? Do you really want to see the country produce the 21st century version of robber barons, cuz we're well on the way to doing just that.
 
Which would SUCK for my freelance business. I have to spend a LOT of my income on software updates, new computers, etc. etc. Under a flat tax, I wouldn't be able to deduct anything for all those expenses. Talk about discouraging me from being in business!

I assume you are a renter and don't currently enjoy any tax deductions, like for mortgage interest.

Then all you pay is set rate on income earned at set rate! So your quarterly taxes would be very simple!

Right now you need a PHD to understand the avalanche of new tax laws that seem to change year to year!
 
Then all you pay is set rate on income earned at set rate! So your quarterly taxes would be very simple!

Right now you need a PHD to understand the avalanche of new tax laws that seem to change year to year!

Try this: Income $80,000. Flat rate tax around $8000. Net income $72,000. Need a $50,000 piece of machinery to improve my business and keep my current customers. $50,000 loan over 5 years at, say, 8% is around $1,000 per month or $12,000 per year. No tax write off. Until business improves, Federal flat tax + loan interest comes to something like $10,000 per year. Figuring the total cost of the equipment, around $20,000. You make $80,000 and need to have $20,000 cash in the bank to pay taxes. That's a lot to swallow for a small business.

A flat tax rate is great for a wage earner but something needs to exist in the code to encourage business growth. Flat tax makes doing business more expensive.

Dale
 
The robber barons, when they were sated, left a little for the peasants. Socialists want the lot!

What socialist are those my friend? Communist Russia? Communist Cuba? Communist North Korea? The Viet Cong?

Ever herd of a continent called Europe? Yeah most countries there are socialist. With free healthcare, free education, and yes higher taxes than the US. They have huge companies too. I haven't herd any of those companies leave to the USA cause they pay to much in taxes in EU.
 
Try this: Income $80,000. Flat rate tax around $8000. Net income $72,000. Need a $50,000 piece of machinery to improve my business and keep my current customers. $50,000 loan over 5 years at, say, 8% is around $1,000 per month or $12,000 per year. No tax write off. Until business improves, Federal flat tax + loan interest comes to something like $10,000 per year. Figuring the total cost of the equipment, around $20,000. You make $80,000 and need to have $20,000 cash in the bank to pay taxes. That's a lot to swallow for a small business.

A flat tax rate is great for a wage earner but something needs to exist in the code to encourage business growth. Flat tax makes doing business more expensive.

Dale

You shouldn't pay taxes on a loan! You pay the interest rate set by the bank lending you the money! Taxes would be set on income, services rendered and good sold for profit.
 
Apple has been moving some manufacturing to the US. +1
Let's wait to find out what that Panama scandal thingie is about (what happened to the video of Sanders openly questioning it in 2011?) Is Apple complicit in not wanting to pay its dues, while bashing unions and the uneducated and giving source code and other helping hands to other countries as opposed to hiring here and training to really show how wrong those teachers are? ;)
[doublepost=1460035173][/doublepost]
Try this: Income $80,000. Flat rate tax around $8000. Net income $72,000. Need a $50,000 piece of machinery to improve my business and keep my current customers. $50,000 loan over 5 years at, say, 8% is around $1,000 per month or $12,000 per year. No tax write off. Until business improves, Federal flat tax + loan interest comes to something like $10,000 per year. Figuring the total cost of the equipment, around $20,000. You make $80,000 and need to have $20,000 cash in the bank to pay taxes. That's a lot to swallow for a small business.

A flat tax rate is great for a wage earner but something needs to exist in the code to encourage business growth. Flat tax makes doing business more expensive.

Dale

Not quote: Let's look at this from from a worker standpoint: a worker with $60,000/yr income could use that $6000 a lot more than the $1,000,000/yr income needs the $100,000.

Remember, businesses are made from people. Not the other way around. You're a person too, right? Plus, the bailouts have conclusively proved trickle down does not work. Bailout the bottom (workers) and that money goes right back to the top (the businesses) anyway.

I don't see how it's skill.

It's free trade and the power of agglomeration (which basically means that a geographic region gains inertia that is hard to stop unless the cost of doing business in another area becomes significantly less expensive).

In other words, "race to the bottom". People know what a swindle "free trade" has become, especially when the businesses need corporate welfare - never mind the extreme end of that, bailouts - in order to not go under (which also conclusively shows there are not enough customers, paying workers since workers do not grow money off of trees but as the value of the work done - wages. )

What would God classify as a skill? Our human-invented economy can't usurp what God/Gods created.
 
So why is it a "typical LOL"? There is nothing true I didn't say. Oh... let me guess, give you're new member, you just love trolling Anti-Apple spew. Should have known.
No trolling here. Thanks for generalising though...

Some context to help:

Cost of living in the USA is about 45% - 135% higher than in China.
1
Wages of factory workers in the USA is about 1158% higher than in China. 2

There is complete wage imbalance in China. Apple needs to completely up its game to correct this terrible misdeed.

1. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States
2. The wage of an Apple factory worker inChina is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.) The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)
 
Except this has not happened in any of the countries running the system Sanders is proposing. Infact USA is the country that has run out of money. As you are in huge debt, and your credit value has been downgraded from triple AAA to just AA. Hows that capitalism working out for you? Certainly not working out for the 40 million people living in poverty right now with now way out?

If companies like Apple had payed their income taxes and not moved their finances out of the country. Then there would be more money for the goverment to actually spend ON the people. But I guess folks like you dont want the best for your fellow americans. I assume you only want those who work to achieve the american dream to have a quality of life. And those not lucky enough to suffer?

Make no mistake. This is what Apple contributes to. And Tim Cook can brag about their charitable help all he wants. It only pales in comparison to what his company truly owes the country.

The ballooning of US debt is precisely due to socialist programs sucking down too much money (and the gulf war to a certain extent).

The moving of jobs to foreign countries is also a form of foreign aid.

I do applaud your point about charitable giving though. It would be nice to see Apple donating billion dollar figures instead of mere millions: from he who much is given, much is expected.

But rather than complaining about "tax evasion", critics of Apple's business practices should seek to change the law.
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Except this has not happened in any of the countries running the system Sanders is proposing. Infact USA is the country that has run out of money. As you are in huge debt, and your credit value has been downgraded from triple AAA to just AA. Hows that capitalism working out for you? Certainly not working out for the 40 million people living in poverty right now with now way out?

If companies like Apple had payed their income taxes and not moved their finances out of the country. Then there would be more money for the goverment to actually spend ON the people. But I guess folks like you dont want the best for your fellow americans. I assume you only want those who work to achieve the american dream to have a quality of life. And those not lucky enough to suffer?

Make no mistake. This is what Apple contributes to. And Tim Cook can brag about their charitable help all he wants. It only pales in comparison to what his company truly owes the country.

The ballooning of US debt is precisely due to socialist programs sucking down too much money (and the gulf war to a certain extent).

The moving of jobs to foreign countries is also a form of foreign aid.

I do applaud your point about charitable giving though. It would be nice to see Apple donating billion dollar figures instead of mere millions: from he who much is given, much is expected.

But rather than complaining about "tax evasion", critics of Apple's business practices should seek to change the law.
 
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You shouldn't pay taxes on a loan! You pay the interest rate set by the bank lending you the money! Taxes would be set on income, services rendered and good sold for profit.

Yes. Tax on income only. The business owner must foot the bill to improve his business with no help from the flat tax code proposal. His bottom line is squeezed and he can't raise worker pay or hire new employees because he has to keep his free cash for taxes. The overall economy suffers. A revised tax code must include business deductions to promote private sector growth.

Is this difficult to understand?

Dale
 
What socialist are those my friend? Communist Russia? Communist Cuba? Communist North Korea? The Viet Cong?

Ever herd of a continent called Europe? Yeah most countries there are socialist. With free healthcare, free education, and yes higher taxes than the US. They have huge companies too. I haven't herd any of those companies leave to the USA cause they pay to much in taxes in EU.

Ah, yes, the EU. Quite solvent, I believe./
[doublepost=1460043122][/doublepost]
No trolling here. Thanks for generalising though...

Some context to help:

Cost of living in the USA is about 45% - 135% higher than in China.
1
Wages of factory workers in the USA is about 1158% higher than in China. 2

There is complete wage imbalance in China. Apple needs to completely up its game to correct this terrible misdeed.

1. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States
2. The wage of an Apple factory worker inChina is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.) The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)

Do you really think that Communist China would allow its workers to be that rich?
 
Ah, yes, the EU. Quite solvent, I believe./
[doublepost=1460043122][/doublepost]

Do you really think that Communist China would allow its workers to be that rich?

My friend and the US is solvent? US Debt is almost at 20 trillion dollars.
With all that debt US don't even have affordable healthcare.
 
Ah, yes, the EU. Quite solvent, I believe./
[doublepost=1460043122][/doublepost]

Do you really think that Communist China would allow its workers to be that rich?
This is about Apple paying its offshore employees properly with proper wages, proper conditions and proper reasonable hours.
 
No trolling here. Thanks for generalising though...

Some context to help:

Cost of living in the USA is about 45% - 135% higher than in China.
1
Wages of factory workers in the USA is about 1158% higher than in China. 2

There is complete wage imbalance in China. Apple needs to completely up its game to correct this terrible misdeed.

1. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States
2. The wage of an Apple factory worker inChina is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.) The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)

Ahhhhh... why is this Apple's fault the wages and cost of living are cheaper in China?

Again... Apple is doing NO DIFFERENT than any other high-tech company here. It's not their fault Bill Clinton opened the doors for manufacturing to leave the US with the signing of the NAFTA agreement. After that, it was a mass exodus of manufacturing in many industries to China and other countries.

Too bad people like you who damn Apple for doing business like this don't take a look at why things happened the way they did. If you want to throw stones, throw them at the US politicians that gave US manufacturing to countries like China and Mexico at the expense of the US worker.
 
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And what happens when major corporations and the wealthy decide to leave the US and not pay into Bernie's plan for all of these excessivley higher taxes? Free college education for all, funded by corporate America and the 1%? What a joke. Let me ask, who ends up paying for all the freebee handouts once this burden has shifted to the middle class? Oh yeah, we get a situation similar as with Greece. Good one. Change your name to hoodwinked.

The last I'd read, like on his own website, it was a redistribution of tax money, and tax increases on the very rich. Maybe even doing what Obama wanted and halting corporate welfare going to companies that offshore jobs. Remember the vote in 2005 in the GOP dominated government where a bill to halt such corporate welfare was shot down? Must have been one heck of a rider thrown in to encourage all the "Country first" and "We hate welfare" lot to continue the freebies... 100% of Republicans and a small amount of Democrats supposed more corporate handouts... might want to look it up from any site that shows voting records. Seems a fair thing to do - so here's some help: http://www.ontheissues.org/SenateVote/Party_2005-63.htm

So it's not free.

Big difference.

Now maybe, if people want a truly free market, government can stop putting out tax breaks, tax cuts, corporate welfare, and corporate bailouts and see working class prosperity soar once again. But even I know there are legitimate reasons for those. But in a debate, one doesn't appease opposing points of view...
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Ahhhhh... why is this Apple's fault the wages and cost of living are cheaper in China?

Again... Apple is doing NO DIFFERENT than any other high-tech company here. It's not their fault Bill Clinton opened the doors for manufacturing to leave the US with the signing of the NAFTA agreement. After that, it was a mass exodus of manufacturing in many industries to China and other countries.

Too bad people like you who damn Apple for doing business like this don't take a look at why things happened the way they did. If you want to throw stones, throw them at the US politicians that gave US manufacturing to countries like China and Mexico at the expense of the US worker.

Clinton? Look up Reagan's opening up China and being the first to give it MFN status, the missile guidance system sale, Nixon going there to open the doors in the first place, even the bills Carter let through though I doubt - as Nixon and Carter were trailblazers - didn't know the mess that would be created over the coming decades... But please stop trying to pin the tail on the donkey because the partisan blaming is complete b.s. when, in one form or another, it's been bipartisan, thank you.

P.S. Since some people support communism, why not move there and let the children work and develop good work ethic? http://fortune.com/2016/01/19/apple-child-labor/
 
Ahhhhh... why is this Apple's fault the wages and cost of living are cheaper in China?

Again... Apple is doing NO DIFFERENT than any other high-tech company here. It's not their fault Bill Clinton opened the doors for manufacturing to leave the US with the signing of the NAFTA agreement. After that, it was a mass exodus of manufacturing in many industries to China and other countries.

Too bad people like you who damn Apple for doing business like this don't take a look at why things happened the way they did. If you want to throw stones, throw them at the US politicians that gave US manufacturing to countries like China and Mexico at the expense of the US worker.
Companies can stay or go and Apple left.
 
The last I'd read, like on his own website, it was a redistribution of tax money, and tax increases on the very rich. Maybe even doing what Obama wanted and halting corporate welfare going to companies that offshore jobs. Remember the vote in 2005 in the GOP dominated government where a bill to halt such corporate welfare was shot down? Must have been one heck of a rider thrown in to encourage all the "Country first" and "We hate welfare" lot to continue the freebies... 100% of Republicans and a small amount of Democrats supposed more corporate handouts... might want to look it up from any site that shows voting records. Seems a fair thing to do - so here's some help: http://www.ontheissues.org/SenateVote/Party_2005-63.htm

So it's not free.

Big difference.

Now maybe, if people want a truly free market, government can stop putting out tax breaks, tax cuts, corporate welfare, and corporate bailouts and see working class prosperity soar once again. But even I know there are legitimate reasons for those. But in a debate, one doesn't appease opposing points of view...
[doublepost=1460051381][/doublepost]

Clinton? Look up Reagan's opening up China and being the first to give it MFN status, the missile guidance system sale, Nixon going there to open the doors in the first place, even the bills Carter let through though I doubt - as Nixon and Carter were trailblazers - didn't know the mess that would be created over the coming decades... But please stop trying to pin the tail on the donkey because the partisan blaming is complete b.s. when, in one form or another, it's been bipartisan, thank you.

P.S. Since some people support communism, why not move there and let the children work and develop good work ethic? http://fortune.com/2016/01/19/apple-child-labor/

Clinton Signed it in December 8th of 1993. Yes... started by republicans, Bill finished the job and helped kill manufacturing. Ross Perot was dead on right back then!

BTW... I'm a HUGE advocate of companies like Apple moving manufacturing back to the US. However, I'm not going to damn them for going where the manufacturing is... in high-tech it's where 90% is done. Who I'll damn is the politicians for not making it advantageous for companies like Apple to bring their revenues home and build manufacturing here. Cost of labor is NOT the issue... it's the cost of doing business in the US that's the problem.

If the government was smart, they would allow every dollar spent by companies that goes to re-building manufacturing in the US be tax free. Even bring in funds from outside subsidiaries tax free if the dollars go to building plants or training US workers to work in the factories. The hourly wage is not the issue... it's everything else around it that's the issue.

So keep bashing on companies like Apple, HP, Microsoft, and others while you should be writing your congressman and helping push for candidates that understand that we need to bring manufacturing back to the US... and to do so, the government is going to have to give some in the beginning to make it happen.
[doublepost=1460058075][/doublepost]
Companies can stay or go and Apple left.

Yup... right along with everyone else. And those who did stay still outsource most of the components to China and other countries. It's what the industry did... not just Apple. If you take off your Anti-apple glasses for a moment, you might actually look around and see where the real problem is. Washington DC. Not Cupertino.
 
Then all you pay is set rate on income earned at set rate! So your quarterly taxes would be very simple!

Right now you need a PHD to understand the avalanche of new tax laws that seem to change year to year!

Which would suck since my business purchase deductions save me a ton of money on taxes and they vary every year. Those deductions were designed to encourage people like me to put our money back into our businesses to grow them. But I agree I wish taxes were simpler. I'm looking into getting an accountant, though, so my pain should soon be over.
 
Which would suck since my business purchase deductions save me a ton of money on taxes and they vary every year. Those deductions were designed to encourage people like me to put our money back into our businesses to grow them. But I agree I wish taxes were simpler. I'm looking into getting an accountant, though, so my pain should soon be over.

Look at the broad picture. Our overcomplicated tax system has required you to hire an accountant just to make sense of it.

It's created demand, with jobs arising from it. Ergo, it's the greatest thing ever.
 
Look at the broad picture. Our overcomplicated tax system has required you to hire an accountant just to make sense of it.

It's created demand, with jobs arising from it. Ergo, it's the greatest thing ever.

The broad picture is, a flat tax sucks for everyone who isn't super rich. I'm all for simpler but not for so simple that it doesn't take into account the financial situations of various peoples. My high-school educated mom always did my parent's taxes so it not THAT complicated for the average person (although my mom was exceptionally smart beyond her high school education. If she hadn't had a sexist father she would have been a chemist).
 
Try this: Income $80,000. Flat rate tax around $8000. Net income $72,000. Need a $50,000 piece of machinery to improve my business and keep my current customers. $50,000 loan over 5 years at, say, 8% is around $1,000 per month or $12,000 per year. No tax write off. Until business improves, Federal flat tax + loan interest comes to something like $10,000 per year. Figuring the total cost of the equipment, around $20,000. You make $80,000 and need to have $20,000 cash in the bank to pay taxes. That's a lot to swallow for a small business.

A flat tax rate is great for a wage earner but something needs to exist in the code to encourage business growth. Flat tax makes doing business more expensive.

Dale

No it wouldn't! He/she flat rate is just on Profit and not when paying off debt! You understand that! Any business improvements is not taxable and then the goverment must pay the small business the tax rate IF the improvement is a regulation (i.e. Wheelchair access, etc).
 
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