Biggest ATV4 disappointment. No 1080p24

[RhythmAndBlues]

So there was quite a lot of incentive not to film at 30 fps, or 60 fps-- even if the projectors were compatible.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Apologies, if that's the case.

What I meant was that surely someone with knowledge enough to know that movie theatres output films at 72Hz appreciates why I, as a discerning home viewer, am not happy with a crappy, on-the-fly, 50 or 60Hz conversion?

 

[jerwin]

Out of curiosity... what's this feature normally called? I'll make sure to look for it when I purchase my next TV.

haven't been tv shopping in a while. I imagine "1080p24" will appear in the description, though I don't know how the 4k televisions with it are so advertised.

(This only works if you have a player that can output 1080p24, and the appleTV can't. Great for bluray, though. Manufactures probably have all sorts of weird brand names for inverse telecine, the process of discarding those superfluous stuttering frames, and some work better than others)

 

[RhythmAndBlues]

haven't been tv shopping in a while. I imagine "1080p24" will appear in the description, though I don't know how the 4k televisions with it are so advertised.

Whoa, whoa... my television was advertised as "1080p24", but stutters like Hell when displaying iTunes content. That phrase alone does not mean that a television has the intelligence to smooth out 24fps conversions.

 

[jerwin]

Whoa, whoa... my television was advertised as "1080p24", but stutters like Hell when displaying iTunes content. That phrase alone does not mean that a television has the intelligence to smooth out 24fps conversions.

What's playing the iTunes content? An appleTV outputting a 1080p60 signal, perhaps?

 

[thisismyusername]

Out of curiosity... what's this feature normally called? I'll make sure to look for it when I purchase my next TV.

haven't been tv shopping in a while. I imagine "1080p24" will appear in the description, though I don't know how the 4k televisions with it are so advertised.

I wouldn't count on a manufacturer advertising this very well, if at all. I suggest googling whatever model numbers you're interested in, checking articles like I linked to and reading any threads avsforum.com has that are dedicated to those TVs. I also suggest you buy it from a place that has a decent return policy so you can return it if you don't like it.

Another tip regarding 24p... don't go looking for the judder Ignorance is bliss. If you can't see it (most people don't notice it), just be happy with the picture and concentrate on enjoying the movie. Once you first notice it, you'll forever be looking for it and it might drive you nuts.

 

[Shaddow825]

My projector has an inverse telecine mode that will detect the cadence of a 3:2 pulldown and discard the duplicate frames and just display 24p (quadrupled to 96 IIRC) which should account for motion just fine.

 

[Snoopy4]

Awww, mate... you may not like her music, but the girl has control. It's a great voice - technically speaking, even if you don't like what she sings.

Suicide music. All the way.

 

[Snoopy4]

Out of curiosity... what's this feature normally called? I'll make sure to look for it when I purchase my next TV.

You have to look in the specs. If it has it it will say it. Usually the back spec pages of the manual. If it doesn't then make sure the set has refresh rate divisible by 24 evenly. That will at least unload a lot of flicker. Your source needs it too, but that's easier to find.

 

[thirdeyeopen666]

You have to look in the specs. If it has it it will say it. Usually the back spec pages of the manual. If it doesn't then make sure the set has refresh rate divisible by 24 evenly. That will at least unload a lot of flicker. Your source needs it too, but that's easier to find.

For now I guess I'm stuck using my wdtv for 24p content. Thanks for the info.

 

[Donka]

This is a real issue for me and the reason am I considering a return. If I use Plex on my Samsung TV, movies, especially panning are buttery smooth. The same scenes using Plex on the ATV show the annoying judder and I can't unsee this effect.

 

[dannys1]

Just because your TV accepts 24p input, doesn't mean it displays it at 24hz. My 2008 Pioneer Kuro was one of the first TVs that would accept 24p, but it actually displays it at 72hz (each frame 3 times).

This is really old, but is still mostly true (there are more TVs that do it correctly there there used to be).
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/21/can-your-hdtv-even-properly-display-1080p24/

Correct, but as mentioned above, even cinemas use a refresh rate of 72hz - any multiple of 24 is better than 50hz or 60hz that the Apple TV is hard wired to. I'm pretty sure its not a hard law of the feature that it must be 24hz and perhaps it'll even display 24hz but might refresh at a compatible higher rate...either way, you're getting the judderless pan shots, so it works.
It might even report it as 24hz to the HDMI connection (when it actually does a multiple of 24hz on the actual panel), further confusing the issue. My old Samsung for instance reports to OS X that it can do 24hz and it does, behind the scenes is this a multiple of 24? No one knows (its certainly not in the spec sheet which just says its supports a 24hz refresh mode for "TrueCinema" or whatever marketing term they used backed then), but it doesn't matter as its showing you 1080p24 content perfectly so it works.

 

[RhythmAndBlues]

What's playing the iTunes content? An appleTV outputting a 1080p60 signal, perhaps?

I don't know whether you're trying to be clever, or asking a sincere question.

I don't like to assume that anyone is a ********, so I'll go with the latter... yes, the Apple TV outputting a 1080p60 signal is playing the iTunes content. I see now that you've edited the post that I originally quoted to clarify your statement - i.e. that you were not suggesting a television labelled as "1080p24" can necessarily apply inverse telecine.

 

[RhythmAndBlues]

Another tip regarding 24p... don't go looking for the judder Ignorance is bliss. If you can't see it (most people don't notice it), just be happy with the picture and concentrate on enjoying the movie. Once you first notice it, you'll forever be looking for it and it might drive you nuts.

True. But once you've seen it... ... ...

 

[thirdeyeopen666]

True. But once you've seen it... ... ...

I've always been surprised that people don't see it right off the bat. Pans aren't exactly an uncommon filming technique, and it has always been glaringly obvious to me.

 

[RhythmAndBlues]

I've always been surprised that people don't see it right off the bat. Pans aren't exactly an uncommon filming technique, and it has always been glaringly obvious to me.

I certainly became much more discerning, seven or eight years ago. I don't know why. It was around the time that I got into Blu-ray.

I suppose as technological standards rise - higher resolutions, richer colours etc. - these improvements will expose the parts of the experience that aren't improving at the same rate. And if you're the kind of person who's always pressing for the best possible viewing experience, you're more likely to spot these things and be bothered by them.

I frequently wish that my eyes were not so fussy. It's a burden, not a gift.

 

[Cory Bauer]

Well its quite easy when you've got one, the output options are 50hz or 60hz. There's no native 24hz refresh rate to match, there's also no interlaced modes. So its either 1080p50 or 1080p60 depending on what option you have in settings.

And when you say "play" you're misunderstanding me. Of course it PLAYS 24fps content, but it spits it out at 50hz or 60hz thus telecine judder.

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/16971

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. While I understand the desire of 24p output from the device - I have my blu-ray player set to do just that - from what I've read elsewhere the 1080p60hz output of the 4th Generation Apple TV is really a non-issue for most devices. Per some posts on the Plex forums:

24p content is properly handled by the new AppleTV, just as it was on the ATV before it. Even though Apple TV's output frame rate is 60p, the pulldown is handled by your TV and the final result is properly cadenced 24p. I used to worry about this issue and researched the hell out of it, tried different methods to get true 24p out of my Plex hardware, and in the end if you simply hook everything up the standard way, 24p is taken care of for you. Apple are not idiots who don't know better than to turn the world's repository of 24p films into 30p and 60p ESPN.

I spent the evening watching classic 24p movies on the new AppleTV with the new Plex app. Everything looked exactly as it should. This 24p on AppleTV issue is a non-issue, your TV takes care of pulldown and the frames are presented as intended.

And:

Well, did some testing yesterday - seems to work as it should... Even with 24p Content there's no stutter or judder... Works better than my raspi 2 with the new PMP Client!

Source: https://forums.plex.tv/discussion/191588/1080-24p-playback/p1

 

[turbineseaplane]

Per some posts on the Plex forums

So people have their TV's doing the pulldown - Precisely what many don't want (pulldown of any form)

Per that Plex thread, I'm going to be popping PMP onto a rPi2 here this afternoon to try out.

 

[xmichaelp]

So what exactly happens when you play a 24fps movie on an Apple TV? Does it play at 30fps? I'm confused.

 

[RhythmAndBlues]

So what exactly happens when you play a 24fps movie on an Apple TV? Does it play at 30fps? I'm confused.

Yeah, it fudges it. I don't really know how to explain it...

... one of the professionals on here will do a better job than me but - in my own, self-taught, layman's parlance - it displays 30 frames per second, even though the image is only made up of 24. Hence, the image is juddery - because it's running at the wrong speed, and the number of frames being drawn doesn't align with the number of frames from which the image is made up.

I really didn't explain that well... somebody else who knows what they're talking about will be along shortly!

 

[Cory Bauer]

So people have their TV's doing the pulldown - Precisely what many don't want (pulldown of any form)

Per that Plex thread, I'm going to be popping PMP onto a rPi2 here this afternoon to try out.

Well what exactly do people want? In my experience, smooth handling of 24p content and pulldown is one of the many things to consider when purchasing a television. If a person bought a tv that does it well, it's not a problem. And what's the alternative? No display operates at 24hz and if it did it'd be unwatchable (even 48hz is unwatchable due to the perceived flicker).

To my knowledge, the very purpose of having a device that outputs 1080p24 (like a blu-ray player) is so your tv can handle adding the necessary pulldown to create a 60hz or greater signal. So, if your television handles 24p content output at 60hz just as well as it does a native 1080p24 signal, then it's a non-issue.

So what exactly happens when you play a 24fps movie on an Apple TV? Does it play at 30fps? I'm confused.

No, it doesn't make film material look like video if that's what you're wondering. Since 60 is not evenly divisible by 24, some frames get repeated in a 2:3 pattern to create a 60hz signal from 24hz. If your display device handles 2:3 well, then there will be no perceivable difference. If your display doesn't handle it well, then you may see what kind of looks like stutter (or judder) in certain shots where the camera or objects pan across screen.

Even if the Apple TV did have the option to output 1080p24, it would still require a display that can handle pulldown well for there to be no stutter or judder (because a display operating at 24hz would be unwatchable so it has to turn it into something). So it's effectively a moot point unless there's a unique case where a device like a projector does well with 1080p24 but sucks at handling 1080p at 60Hz.

 

[jerwin]

Suppose you have 6 frames of video. On a movie screen, they are displayed like this.

ABCDEF. ( 6 frames, 24fps, 0.25 s)

Or, to reduce flicker, like this.

AABBCCDDEEFF. (12 frames, 48 fps, 0.25 s)

what a television does more akin to

AAABBCCCDDEEEFF (15 frames, 60 fps, 0.25 s)

 

[RhythmAndBlues]

Suppose you have 6 frames of video. On a movie screen, they are displayed like this.

ABCDEF. ( 6 frames, 24fps, 0.25 s)

Or, to reduce flicker, like this.

AABBCCDDEEFF. (12 frames, 48 fps, 0.25 s)

what a television does more akin to

AAABBCCCDDEEEFF (15 frames, 60 fps, 0.25 s)

That's an interesting and useful way of describing it.

 

[richtea123]

I know the AT4 doesn't support 24p, and I've seen the comment on the developers forum confirming that, but does anyone know if this is a software or hardware limitation? i.e. Could Apple add 24p support to the ATV4 in a future iOS version or will it need a hardware upgrade?

 

[RhythmAndBlues]

I know the AT4 doesn't support 24p, and I've seen the comment on the developers forum confirming that, but does anyone know if this is a software or hardware limitation? i.e. Could Apple add 24p support to the ATV4 in a future iOS version or will it need a hardware upgrade?

I'm almost certain the hardware can do it. I'm not an engineer, but if a £50 Blu-ray player can output 24p then I can't imagine why an Apple TV wouldn't be able to...

... I'm open to correction on this point.

 

[TsMkLg068426]

Do we know movies in iTunes Store is 24p? I doubt it. Also, is there any settings in HB that encode to 24p?
This is a TV. It's not Blu-Ray player.

With your logic a higher quality streaming such as 1080p24 or 4K is impossible while other streaming devices can handle it that are not Blu-Ray. Not sure why people worry who want a better quality of streaming, is it because you can not afford it or is your ISP Comcast?