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Biggest ATV4 disappointment. No 1080p24
- Thread starter dannys1
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As well they should be. Since (nearly) all films are shot 24fps, any additional frames in the file would be redundant. And that already starved Kbps would have to be divided even more amongst unnecessary redundant frames.
Sure. I guess what those asking the question are trying to ascertain is whether or not the encodes have retained the native frame-rate of the movies, or whether they have been reworked to accommodate the Apple TV's 50/60Hz output options.
I'm not arguing the point but seeking clarification. My Samsung 2011 55" supports 24p. If I watch a move on the Samsung Plex client, it handles the movie correctly with perfectly smooth pans. The exact same movie via the ATV 4 on the Samsung exhibits noticeable judder during pans. Are you saying this should not be the case and I'm missing a TV setting to have these movies play back smoothly on the Samsung via ATV?
Maybe check if there's a setting called "Film Mode" in the picture settings of your Samsung display while the Apple TV HDMI source is active. If I recall correctly, the intent of that setting is for exactly this situation - or more commonly with a broadcast signal where 24p content has also had pulldown added.
But in my experience, those tvs which smoothly handle transitioning a true 24p source into a watchable image typically also do well at detecting and translating the 3:2 cadence of a 24p source within a 60hz signal.
Yes, there is a film mode but not available for the Apple TV as it is only available for HDMI connected devices running 1080i. There are some motion plus settings I'll play around with tomorrow. If I can eliminate that judder then the ATV4 will be a keeper.
You've quoted a guy talking nonsense from the Plex forums (he might have a TV set that does reverse telecine) and now you're talking nonsense.
TV's that operate at 24hz do not create flicker, you've obviously not owned one. You need to stop thinking of it as being a computer montor not having enough frames to appear smooth. When given 24fps, 24hz TV's play it back perfectly.
And there's no such thing as TV's so good at 2:3 pulldown that it becomes "I perceivable". You can't magic the maths any differently. The only thing you can do is employ reverse telecine on the process.
To ensure smooth playback of 24fps souces the Apple TV has to output at 1080p24hz like even my Sat set top box can!
There's no magic sets that are suddely going to negate this issue at 1080p50hz or 1080p60hz no matter how much a bloke on the Plex forums tries to convince himself.
You can only cheat the 2:3 pulldown with a 1080i signal, you're screwed once its progressive (see earlier quoted article) handily the Apple TV has no interlaced mode outputs either, sigh.
Not to be mean Cory but you were asking questions about this a few posts ago and now you're posting as if you've got all the answers but it's just muddying waters futher on a subject which bizarrely already confuses people too much for a problem so simple.
And well my "magic" projector does exactly this. It takes 60 frames per second input, detects the duplicates, throws them away and displays the original 24frames per second (at 4x/96fps). And many other TVs do as well. There was an article posted earlier in this thread that lists TVs that do, and TCVs that don't. And unlike your previous comment, the sets were tested to do it at both 60i and 60p.
And no TV these days (or possibly ever) operates at 24z, it is almost always a multiple. 72 or 96 are common. The duplicating a frames at an even rate is no different than 24 fps to the eye (because of persistence of vision), its the unevenness of 3 frames then 2 then 3 that creates the flicker.
1080p @24fps is not higher quality. It's the lowest acceptable speed. The fact that it's just supported in HD doesn't change this fact.
This is like saying Pentium is higher quality than Core2Duo. People are funny sometimes.
Don't all TVs have that these days? Except for the bargain basement ones, perhaps.
In the context of this discussion, i.e. when the content itself is 24fps, then a 24p signal is the best quality option:
60p/i: terrible motion quality (3:2 pulldown)
50p/i: bad motion quality (2 frame hold every second)
24p: ideal
Wow this has been a long read 
So, just to throw my tuppence in, to try and summarise and explain for those who drop in at the last page.
The Apple TV does not and likely will not ever output 1080p at 24Hz. It will output 24fps at 60Hz (or 50Hz) and that's as good as you are going to get from it.
Many displays are able to detect this 24/60 format and employ a technique known as inverse telecine to remove the added frames and reconstruct the original 24fps format of the source. But that will never be quite as good as having both source and display operating in harmony.
Needless to say, there are precious few displays that can actually operate at 24Hz but as we all know there are many refresh rates such as those at 96/120/240Hz which are a multiple of 24 and so use techniques such as frame doubling to smoothly reproduce the 24fps content from a compatible device outputting 24fps video at 24Hz. In doing this these displays can bypass the need for any software trickery to achieve the original 24fps of the source material and results in a much smoother, more natural motion which should be free of any "Judder".
Think that qualifies as my typical pointless morning post then
So, just to throw my tuppence in, to try and summarise and explain for those who drop in at the last page.
The Apple TV does not and likely will not ever output 1080p at 24Hz. It will output 24fps at 60Hz (or 50Hz) and that's as good as you are going to get from it.
Many displays are able to detect this 24/60 format and employ a technique known as inverse telecine to remove the added frames and reconstruct the original 24fps format of the source. But that will never be quite as good as having both source and display operating in harmony.
Needless to say, there are precious few displays that can actually operate at 24Hz but as we all know there are many refresh rates such as those at 96/120/240Hz which are a multiple of 24 and so use techniques such as frame doubling to smoothly reproduce the 24fps content from a compatible device outputting 24fps video at 24Hz. In doing this these displays can bypass the need for any software trickery to achieve the original 24fps of the source material and results in a much smoother, more natural motion which should be free of any "Judder".
Think that qualifies as my typical pointless morning post then
Needless to say, there are precious few displays that can actually operate at 24Hz but as we all know there are many refresh rates such as those at 96/120/240Hz which are a multiple of 24 and so use techniques such as frame doubling to smoothly reproduce the 24fps content from a compatible device outputting 24fps video at 24Hz. In doing this these displays can bypass the need for any software trickery to achieve the original 24fps of the source material and results in a much smoother, more natural motion which should be free of any "Judder".
Think that qualifies as my typical pointless morning post then
Haha.
Thinks people concerning about this are those who mainly have TV that's 120/240 Hz capable set (I hope). I'm not concerning but I have one.
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Haha.
Thinks people concerning about this are those who mainly have TV that's 120/240 Hz capable set. I'm not concerning but I have one.
Well the thing is, is you don't have a set capable of taking advantage of 24Hz, why give a rats ass. Your only going to see a 60Hz video with some software trickery to smooth it out. Seems pointless caring about 1080p/24 if you can't use it.
That's also true. Many times people just get stuck in spec without a better understanding of it.
Ah, the classic, my football boots are better than yours because they've got Ronaldo's face on them. Who cares if my feet don't fit in them. Or something like that
Spec wars are pointless at the best of times, something will do what it does and that's that. But if you can't even make use of the thing your complaining about missing you might as well complain that the sky isn't purple with yellow spots. Make your choice and enjoy what you have, all the whinging in the world won't change it.
I was a bit disappointed that the new aTV did not support 24p yet as I bought into the hype myself. However, the more I read about it in the forums from owners of Panasonic plasmas (which is what I've got), 24p support/implementation seems to be more of a headache than a blessing and most people end up setting their BR players to output 60p as that seems to produce the best picture.
1. Fair enough, I know my older Samsung does no such reverse telecine and as far as my eye tells me neither does our 2013 Samsung either. I'm seeing telecine judder form slow pan shots on the Apple TV that i'm not seeing from the same material played back on the Set Top Box at 1080p24.
2. No one would really know which multiple of 24hz the TV's operate as, as if you feed them with 24hz and it tells you its displaying 24hz. The actual panel might be displaying something higher, but to make it simple for the end user it just reports it as 1080p24hz (at least all Samsung's and Panasonic's i've ever used do)
If reverse telecine was the perfect answer to everything, there would be no point in a 1080p24 mode in the first place - and we've had reverse telecine since early DVD players! Its a very wasteful way of doing two unnecessary things to an image to display. If our eyes can't tell, thats fine, but i'm afraid i'm not seeing perfection from the ATV4 at the moment.
To be fair, if you go to practically any electrical retailer or their website, the refresh rate (or claimed refresh rate, don't get me started on that one) is plastered all over the specs they list so it's hard to miss what frequency the panel is supposed to be.
It is, but not in terms of what it would operate at in 1080p24 mode - or rather if you feed it a 24hz signal from a box. Of course they all claim things like 100hz, 500hz, 800hz and that nonsense. But it doesn't say "if you feed a 24hz signal the TV will actually perform at 120hz, 240hz etc) I know my 2013 Samsung does neither of those as its 100hz max (which is switched off so it natively runs at 50hz as I hate the 100hz motion)
I'm going to go through every single option available to me on my Samsung LCD this evening to see if I can affect the movie quality from the ATV4 in any way. The difference between what Plex produces on the Samsung and the ATV4 really is stark when it comes to this issue. The TV is clearly capable, I'm just hopeful there is a way to apply that to what is being received from the ATV4 over HDMI.
I suspect the film mode is being employed when the Samsung Plex client is playing back a movie which is giving such a nice, smooth pan but given this only works with composite, component or interlaced HDMI signals, I'm not holding out much hope.
I suspect the film mode is being employed when the Samsung Plex client is playing back a movie which is giving such a nice, smooth pan but given this only works with composite, component or interlaced HDMI signals, I'm not holding out much hope.
Perhaps, but if you're buying a tv and you don't know the answer to that question before you even think about visiting a shop, then you either don't care about it at all, or didn't do the research in which case you probably don't care about it.
I know when I bought my ES8000 back when it first came out I knew pretty much every little detail before I even went to look at it (along with the details of a few other backup options.)