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Blu-Ray Support at Macworld? Mac Pros Soon?
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God I hope so
I pray this is true - I've been holding out for a new system for a long time (currently using a Dual 1Ghz G4 from Feb 2002) and I need something better for my work. Also, work has been so good lately that I need a hefty deduction to push me back out of the bigger bracket my last quarter put me in.
I pray this is true - I've been holding out for a new system for a long time (currently using a Dual 1Ghz G4 from Feb 2002) and I need something better for my work. Also, work has been so good lately that I need a hefty deduction to push me back out of the bigger bracket my last quarter put me in.
Blu-Ray for me
More capacity (100GB today, possibly 200GB later), and higher bandwidth (54mbps Blu Ray to 36.55mbps HD-DVD) will be able to support Higher resolutions than HD-DVD including 4k (4096 x 2160), and yes, Sony does make a 4k projector and RED makes a fairly inexpensive 4k camera. AVC and AVC-Intra for tapeless consumer cameras is also a format supported by many of the Blu-Ray hardware manufacturers including Sony, Panasonic and Samsung plus Canon, and is included in both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD playback specs. I would give the content creation advantage to the Blu-Ray Camp
Blu-Ray on 51 GB dual layer content generally includes HD extras, while HD-DVD tends to only support SD extras, albeit the availability of 45 GB three layer HD-DVD discs will mitigate this. HD-DVD + DVD combo disks to date have been expensive and problematic to produce, and will probably be dropped by most studios. Production of Blu-Ray dual layer discs is near parity with HD-DVD multilayer costs, and is no longer considered an issue.
Disk sales are 65% Blu-Ray to 35% HD-DVD and the trend seems to be slowly increasing to a Blu-Ray advantage.
HD-DVD does hold a current advantage for Picture in Picture with only Panasonics DMP-BD30K and PS3 supporting that feature, and with only the PS3 currently supporting internet connection. I would give this as a temporary and minor advantage to the HD-DVD camp. Look for many more Blu-Ray updates in 2008 to close that gap.
My prediction is that a switch to the Blu-Ray exclusive camp by Warner (as rumored) would pretty much kill HD-DVD chances, and Apple's BTO of Blu-Ray burners would become the defacto media standard for Pro-App users. Otherwise, I see HD-DVD slowly sliding back to an acknowledged secondary status, which would doom it as a standard, but otherwise, HD-DVD's might survive indefinitely.
That's all I have to say about that.
More capacity (100GB today, possibly 200GB later), and higher bandwidth (54mbps Blu Ray to 36.55mbps HD-DVD) will be able to support Higher resolutions than HD-DVD including 4k (4096 x 2160), and yes, Sony does make a 4k projector and RED makes a fairly inexpensive 4k camera. AVC and AVC-Intra for tapeless consumer cameras is also a format supported by many of the Blu-Ray hardware manufacturers including Sony, Panasonic and Samsung plus Canon, and is included in both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD playback specs. I would give the content creation advantage to the Blu-Ray Camp
Blu-Ray on 51 GB dual layer content generally includes HD extras, while HD-DVD tends to only support SD extras, albeit the availability of 45 GB three layer HD-DVD discs will mitigate this. HD-DVD + DVD combo disks to date have been expensive and problematic to produce, and will probably be dropped by most studios. Production of Blu-Ray dual layer discs is near parity with HD-DVD multilayer costs, and is no longer considered an issue.
Disk sales are 65% Blu-Ray to 35% HD-DVD and the trend seems to be slowly increasing to a Blu-Ray advantage.
HD-DVD does hold a current advantage for Picture in Picture with only Panasonics DMP-BD30K and PS3 supporting that feature, and with only the PS3 currently supporting internet connection. I would give this as a temporary and minor advantage to the HD-DVD camp. Look for many more Blu-Ray updates in 2008 to close that gap.
My prediction is that a switch to the Blu-Ray exclusive camp by Warner (as rumored) would pretty much kill HD-DVD chances, and Apple's BTO of Blu-Ray burners would become the defacto media standard for Pro-App users. Otherwise, I see HD-DVD slowly sliding back to an acknowledged secondary status, which would doom it as a standard, but otherwise, HD-DVD's might survive indefinitely.
That's all I have to say about that.
'overcast' is intentionally spreading misinformation here.
Sony Pictures releases now use (have done for a long time in fact) high bitrate MPEG-4 AVC on 50GB Blu-ray Discs. They also include lossless English soundtracks in either or both LPCM and Dolby True HD.
VC-1 and MPEG-4 AVC are modern, more efficient codecs than MPEG-2 so they achieve the same picture quality at lower bitrates. Or better picture quality at the same or higher bitrates of course.
Maximum Bitrate (Audio+Video)
Blu-ray: 48 Mbit/s
HDDVD: 30.24 Mbit/s
Maximum Bitrate (Video)
Blu-ray: 40 Mbit/s
HD DVD: 29.4 Mbit/s
Capacity
Blu-ray: 50GB (25GB per layer)
HD DVD: 30GB (15GB per layer)
This is what allows Blu-ray exclusive studios to produce higher quality encodes with higher bitrate video and lossless audio. The max HD DVD audio+video bitrate isn't much higher than the max video bitrate so if video quality is nearly maxed out it doesn't leave enough bandwidth for lossless audio. Video can be maxed out on Blu-ray with plenty of bandwidth to spare for lossless audio. The extra disk capacity Blu-ray has allows this higher bitrate video and lossless audio to be stored along with high def rather than standard def extra features.
It hasn't been proven than existing players can play 100GB 4 layer Blu-ray Discs or TL51 triple layer 51GB HD DVD's. The bitrate specs for both formats would be unaffected by these new capacity disks should existing players be able to read them.
Sony Pictures releases now use (have done for a long time in fact) high bitrate MPEG-4 AVC on 50GB Blu-ray Discs. They also include lossless English soundtracks in either or both LPCM and Dolby True HD.
VC-1 and MPEG-4 AVC are modern, more efficient codecs than MPEG-2 so they achieve the same picture quality at lower bitrates. Or better picture quality at the same or higher bitrates of course.
Maximum Bitrate (Audio+Video)
Blu-ray: 48 Mbit/s
HDDVD: 30.24 Mbit/s
Maximum Bitrate (Video)
Blu-ray: 40 Mbit/s
HD DVD: 29.4 Mbit/s
Capacity
Blu-ray: 50GB (25GB per layer)
HD DVD: 30GB (15GB per layer)
This is what allows Blu-ray exclusive studios to produce higher quality encodes with higher bitrate video and lossless audio. The max HD DVD audio+video bitrate isn't much higher than the max video bitrate so if video quality is nearly maxed out it doesn't leave enough bandwidth for lossless audio. Video can be maxed out on Blu-ray with plenty of bandwidth to spare for lossless audio. The extra disk capacity Blu-ray has allows this higher bitrate video and lossless audio to be stored along with high def rather than standard def extra features.
It hasn't been proven than existing players can play 100GB 4 layer Blu-ray Discs or TL51 triple layer 51GB HD DVD's. The bitrate specs for both formats would be unaffected by these new capacity disks should existing players be able to read them.
yes. watch a program like "the super nanny" or "jerry springer", and ask yourself how many of those people have macs or PCs with itunes connected to their apple tv's or otherwise to a living-room viewing environment.
next, ask yourself how many more of those people are out there than there are people like yourself.
bingo: the format war will not end just because steve made a deal to put movie rentals on a personal computer.
it may be a death-knell of sorts, but sound travels much slower than enlightenment.
good analysis.
YES...thanks, another good analysis. maybe overcast will listen to someone who calmly explains the facts...he was just pissing me off to much with his FUD.
Anyone know if Apple's displays handle HDCP copy protection? Wouldn't be much use if we can't even watch movies w/ it.
1) I don't think they do..but we all don't use apples displays
2) coincidence the displays are due for a refresh as well?
yes. watch a program like "the super nanny" or "jerry springer", and ask yourself how many of those people have macs or PCs with itunes connected to their apple tv's or otherwise to a living-room viewing environment.
next, ask yourself how many more of those people are out there than there are people like yourself.
bingo: the format war will not end just because steve made a deal to put movie rentals on a personal computer.
it may be a death-knell of sorts, but sound travels much slower than enlightenment.
How many people have an HD player hooked up to their TV either? So maybe the competition becomes HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray vs. AppleTV (vs. this new NetFlix thing). Then it breaks out like this:
HD-DVD/Blu-ray:
Higher quality
Physical medium
Devices will become cheaper
Limited formats
AppleTV:
Lower quality
Digital distribution
Device pretty much guaranteed to cost more
Music and podcasts in addition to video
TV shows available earlier
All files also play on iPods
Not yet. I would expect that the next generation displays would have to have it, as any Blu-Ray player would require it.
What I'm waiting for: 45nm, HDMI 1.3 I/O, Blu-Ray burner plus the new cinema displays.
What about iMac?
I am currently allocating funds for a top-of-the-line 24" iMac. Would you think if this Blu-Ray drive does materialise for the Mac Pro, would this be a possibility for the iMac? Would it be "user-replaceable" if I were to buy the iMac now?
I am currently allocating funds for a top-of-the-line 24" iMac. Would you think if this Blu-Ray drive does materialise for the Mac Pro, would this be a possibility for the iMac? Would it be "user-replaceable" if I were to buy the iMac now?
Even though this entire thread should now be voted Off-Topic as it has little to do with new MacPros, here's some links about Blu-ray and HD-DVD to read, if you are so inclined after this pissing match between monkeytap and overcast. I take no position as I don't have HDTV, HD-DVD, or Blu-ray; just stating some facts and links.
The authoring of the movie/menus/extras/interactive content makes more of a difference than the format of the disc. Lack of QA/QC hurts both formats; they've both had compatibility issues while rushing to release titles. Here's a nice big list of glitches for reference.
Anecdotally, I've seen more models of Blu-ray players available, only seen Toshiba HD-DVD players, more titles in Blu-ray, and some lousy demonstrations in the stores. Most of the salesmen in $BigBoxElectronicsStore don't know anything except one plays in one type of player and the other in the other player and maroon case v. blue case.
Notable facts:
-DRM: AACS on Both; BD+, ROM-Mark optional on Blu-ray
-Larger aperture on Blu-ray, allowing for the higher capacity
-3 layer HD-DVD is v2.0 spec, 3 x 17GB = 51GB, currently unknown compatibility
-Max bitrates (total, audio, video) are higher on Blu-ray
-DD+ and Dolby TrueHD are mandatory on HD-DVD, optional on Blu-ray
-HD-DVD is region free; Blu-ray has 3 regions
-Microsoft's HDi in HD-DVD vs. Sun's BD-J in Blu-ray
-Stand-alone component manufacturers: HD-DVD: 5; Blu-ray: 5
-LG has a player that supports both discs but is expensive
-Blu-ray discs are hard-coated
Blu-ray industry membership:
Apple; Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company*; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corporation; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; Sun Microsystems; TDK Corporation; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television, Warner Bros*
HD-DVD industry membership:
Toshiba, NEC*, Sanyo, Microsoft, RCA, Kenwood, Intel, Venturer Electronics, Hewlett Packard Company*, Memory-Tech Corporation, Universal, Paramount, The Weinstein Company, Warner Bros.*
*Supporting both formats
Links:
Basic Comparison chart (kinda old)
http://www.dv.com/dv/magazine/2006/August/DV0608NHDVDSpecs-compared.jpg
Wikipedia articles:
Comparison of HD optical formats
Blu-ray
HD-DVD
The authoring of the movie/menus/extras/interactive content makes more of a difference than the format of the disc. Lack of QA/QC hurts both formats; they've both had compatibility issues while rushing to release titles. Here's a nice big list of glitches for reference.
Anecdotally, I've seen more models of Blu-ray players available, only seen Toshiba HD-DVD players, more titles in Blu-ray, and some lousy demonstrations in the stores. Most of the salesmen in $BigBoxElectronicsStore don't know anything except one plays in one type of player and the other in the other player and maroon case v. blue case.
Notable facts:
-DRM: AACS on Both; BD+, ROM-Mark optional on Blu-ray
-Larger aperture on Blu-ray, allowing for the higher capacity
-3 layer HD-DVD is v2.0 spec, 3 x 17GB = 51GB, currently unknown compatibility
-Max bitrates (total, audio, video) are higher on Blu-ray
-DD+ and Dolby TrueHD are mandatory on HD-DVD, optional on Blu-ray
-HD-DVD is region free; Blu-ray has 3 regions
-Microsoft's HDi in HD-DVD vs. Sun's BD-J in Blu-ray
-Stand-alone component manufacturers: HD-DVD: 5; Blu-ray: 5
-LG has a player that supports both discs but is expensive
-Blu-ray discs are hard-coated
Blu-ray industry membership:
Apple; Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company*; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corporation; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sony Corporation; Sun Microsystems; TDK Corporation; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television, Warner Bros*
HD-DVD industry membership:
Toshiba, NEC*, Sanyo, Microsoft, RCA, Kenwood, Intel, Venturer Electronics, Hewlett Packard Company*, Memory-Tech Corporation, Universal, Paramount, The Weinstein Company, Warner Bros.*
*Supporting both formats
Links:
Basic Comparison chart (kinda old)
http://www.dv.com/dv/magazine/2006/August/DV0608NHDVDSpecs-compared.jpg
Wikipedia articles:
Comparison of HD optical formats
Blu-ray
HD-DVD
The only thing user replaceable in the iMac (AFAIK) is the RAM and HDD. If you were to install a BD drive it would be at your own risk (read: void warranty). Even if Apple were to add is as a BTO option.
HDMI connectors???
I would assume that this means that the new Mac Pros will have HDMI ports.
....and how come apple have not reduced the current Mac Pros prices?
Does it mean the new Mac Pro are far from being released?
or are the prices on the new Mac Pro going to be more expensive than the current prices now?
I would assume that this means that the new Mac Pros will have HDMI ports.
....and how come apple have not reduced the current Mac Pros prices?
Does it mean the new Mac Pro are far from being released?
or are the prices on the new Mac Pro going to be more expensive than the current prices now?
It's interesting to note, that entire page of glitches is all Blu-Ray authoring issues. There is only one HD-DVD issue and it was for a typographical error on the packaging.
Anyhow, I apologize to everyone for making a mess of the topic. Time to upgrade to AIX 6.1 on the new boxes! Laters.
psyched for the storage option
It's worth it to me to pay a little more for blu-ray media to have the convenience and reliability of optical media backups that take up so little room. As a video editor, this would be a real boon to me in my work.
re: the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war, I'm a movie lover first and foremost, so I went "purple" with excellent players from Toshiba and Panasonic connected to a Pioneer 1080p Kuro.
There is NO difference between the quality that is possible on these formats. There are some discs on both formats where the quality of the transfer is subpar, but when executed well, the PQ is terrific on either.
Anecdotally, I've found the HD-DVDs in my collection to be more consistently of higher quality than my Blu-Rays, but Lost Season 3 and Ratatouille (both Blu-Rays) are the highest quality HD movies I've ever seen. Newer Blu-Rays seem to be far better quality than the original batch (which were actually using MPEG2 compression instead of VC1).
Life is too short. Pick one format or both and enjoy your movies looking and sounding better than ever.
It's worth it to me to pay a little more for blu-ray media to have the convenience and reliability of optical media backups that take up so little room. As a video editor, this would be a real boon to me in my work.
re: the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war, I'm a movie lover first and foremost, so I went "purple" with excellent players from Toshiba and Panasonic connected to a Pioneer 1080p Kuro.
There is NO difference between the quality that is possible on these formats. There are some discs on both formats where the quality of the transfer is subpar, but when executed well, the PQ is terrific on either.
Anecdotally, I've found the HD-DVDs in my collection to be more consistently of higher quality than my Blu-Rays, but Lost Season 3 and Ratatouille (both Blu-Rays) are the highest quality HD movies I've ever seen. Newer Blu-Rays seem to be far better quality than the original batch (which were actually using MPEG2 compression instead of VC1).
Life is too short. Pick one format or both and enjoy your movies looking and sounding better than ever.
I feel that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats will be dead in the water, when flash media has already exceeded the 32 - 64 GB capacity range.
Feels stupid for the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray camp to biker about price and availability when the underdog flash media will overthrow them.
The roadmap indicates that 128GB flash might be introduces sometime this year, though it will be expensive that only leave the 32GB to come down in price.
Feels stupid for the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray camp to biker about price and availability when the underdog flash media will overthrow them.
The roadmap indicates that 128GB flash might be introduces sometime this year, though it will be expensive that only leave the 32GB to come down in price.
I feel that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats will be dead in the water, when flash media has already exceeded the 32 - 64 GB capacity range.
Feels stupid for the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray camp to biker about price and availability when the underdog flash media will overthrow them.
The roadmap indicates that 128GB flash might be introduces sometime this year, though it will be expensive that only leave the 32GB to come down in price.
Sigh, flash media will not ursup HDM for supremacy. You are looking at it from a storage perspective than from a content perspective. Movie companies won't use a flashmedia as a media/content delivery format. Major reason why? Can't get the price down fast enough for the amount of disk would have to be sent out. Could you imagine how much a 32-64GB flashdrive movie would cost? Or what kind of DRM would have to be implemented to keep you from copying it? Of how few movies could actually be made in a year (versus HDM where they can press millions of them in a real short time).
Guys come on. All this argument is moot. Take it from the guy that writes HDTV driver code for a living.
Both HD-DVD and BD provide ample space and bandwidth to encode a movie at a high enough bitrate that on a big high quality 1080P display you will not be able to tell improvements by increasing the bitrate further. VC1 or H.264 (AVC), it does not matter.
The HD-DVD/BD battle is mainly a POLITICAL one being waged between giant corporations. The consumers are the victims. Dont get pissed off at each other. Get pissed off at the greed of Toshiba, Sony and co. Put your money where your mouth is and dont buy either format or if you are a video/audio junkie absolutely must, greatly restrict your purchasing until a proper solution is in place.
One last side technical note for the fellow who was saying that 1080P->1080i output will look exactly the same as 1080P. Well... sorta. The original 1080P signal will get run through an interlacing algorithms on the source player and a de-interlacer inside the TV which generally involve more and different post processing vs a progressive signal. In certain circumstances might result in visible differences. Typically however, I agree there will be no difference if the source material is originally high quality 1080P being interlaced and then de-interlaced on the other end.
Both HD-DVD and BD provide ample space and bandwidth to encode a movie at a high enough bitrate that on a big high quality 1080P display you will not be able to tell improvements by increasing the bitrate further. VC1 or H.264 (AVC), it does not matter.
The HD-DVD/BD battle is mainly a POLITICAL one being waged between giant corporations. The consumers are the victims. Dont get pissed off at each other. Get pissed off at the greed of Toshiba, Sony and co. Put your money where your mouth is and dont buy either format or if you are a video/audio junkie absolutely must, greatly restrict your purchasing until a proper solution is in place.
One last side technical note for the fellow who was saying that 1080P->1080i output will look exactly the same as 1080P. Well... sorta. The original 1080P signal will get run through an interlacing algorithms on the source player and a de-interlacer inside the TV which generally involve more and different post processing vs a progressive signal. In certain circumstances might result in visible differences. Typically however, I agree there will be no difference if the source material is originally high quality 1080P being interlaced and then de-interlaced on the other end.
Close, but no cigar.
Compaq (at CES 2001) and Apple (a week later at MWSF 2001) announced the availability of the Pioneer DVR-103 option and DVD authoring bundles.
This drive had around a $1000 list price, but was available soon after release for about $600-$700 at online retailers.
Prior to this drive, DVD writers were extremely expensive (about $5400) but these were not the same devices as the DVR-103.
http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_dvd/dvd_format.htm