Oh, we know each other?
And dude, take a breath. I said to each his own so you do you.
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Butterfly Keyboard is better than new MacBook Pro
- Thread starter dan9700
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Oh, we know each other?
And dude, take a breath. I said to each his own so you do you.
As I said, to each his own and since you own a butterfly and like it, that’s a win for you.
And to me there is a distinct difference between the New MacBook Pro keyboard and the Magic keyboard. And I like both of them over the butterfly keyboard.
I think the MacBook Pro is quieter and that the typing is a softer feel. I don’t know that they are different at al, but the MBP has a better feel to me.
As much as many dislike or have found issues with the butterfly keyboards, I'm going to guess it's still the vocal minority. The percentage of failed keyboards (especially 3rd gen) is likely pretty low.
That said, Apple needed to address the issue. Perception is reality. It was becoming a PR nightmare. They really could of avoided the whole debacle if they just left well enough alone. No one in 2015 was clamouring for a new keyboard.
That said, Apple needed to address the issue. Perception is reality. It was becoming a PR nightmare. They really could of avoided the whole debacle if they just left well enough alone. No one in 2015 was clamouring for a new keyboard.
That's been the case since the original retina macbook pro. But the scissor keyboard didn't really fail with any regularity, so it wasn't a huge issue.
I am not trolling. When people talk about this issue, they are usually referring to problems related to the older iterations of the KB. It's an echo chamber. I believe the 2019 version of the Butterfly KB is much better. And, reviewers and tech sites agree. Reference article by iMore and YouTube review by Max Tech.
So, it is not trolling. I am questioning the assumption that the current Butterfly Keyboard is not reliable. When people make the blanket declaration that the Butterfly KB is a failure, I would like them to be clear they are really talking about a KB that Apple no longer puts on their new computers. Is the new KB perfect? Absolutely not. Of course, there will be some examples of failures. Apple makes millions of these laptops. But, guess what, if they make millions of 16in MBPs, there will be some examples of keyboard problems as well.
The 2019 revision has been out what... 5 months? Perhaps it's slightly more reliable to reduce the < 6 month failures, but I doubt it will prove to be reliable long term. There's a reason Apple has a 4 year warranty on even the latest revision butterfly without offering any such thing on the new keyboard. That should tell you all you need about reliability.
I also wouldn't be so sure about keyboard failures popping up on the 16 inch. Short of spilling liquids, keyboard failures on pre 2016 models were unheard of, even with millions of those things out there still getting used today.
Its not about how many people love the butterfly keyboard - its about how many people hate it.
Now, in a perfect world, when you ordered your new MBP, you'd get a choice of keyboard designs. In the real world, you don't, and probably never will, for all sorts of practical and logistical reasons. That means that the keyboard can't be a love/hate thing, but has to be something that pleases most of the people most of the time.
The thing about Apple's "classic" scissor-mechanism, chiclet keyboard, introduced with the 'unibody' MacBook design, is that (a) a lot of people love it and (b) very few people hate it (unless they expect a full-travel keyboard in an ultrabook). How many complaints do you remember seeing about the old keyboard (apart from back ~2010 when people who hadn't tried it remembered the IBM PC Jr, PET 2001 and other 'chiclet' keyboards from the Bad Old Days).
Then there is the reliability thing - Apple had three goes at 'fixing' the butterfly keyboard. Even if the 2019 version is third time lucky, it is still a day late and a dollar short. Anyway, its only been out for 6 months or so and Apple doesn't publish return rates so who knows? In a sense, it doesn't matter if the 'keyboard faults' were entirely fake news - there's no public confidence in the design. Sometimes life is unfair even to trillion dollar companies. (Hey, the Newton could have bought about the tablet revolution a decade early if it wasn't for one pesky Doonesbury cartoon that hocked the archery of its hound warting recondition).
Fair enough. My recollection is that after 5 months there were tons of complaints about the older KB, but there are very few related to the latest iteration. So, I (and others) see the improvement as being significant. But, I get your point, and time will tell.
As for the 4 year warranty, people really see this differently. Some see it as an admission that the current KB is unreliable. I see it as Apple's attempt to deal with a serious PR problems. They had to do something to earn back consumer confidence. So, they did the two logical things: (1) stand behind their product with an extended warranty, and (2) make the keyboard more reliable.
I really don't think that Apple's best fiscal strategy is to continuously make a failure prone KBs and then pay for 4 years of replacements. There is no way that is going to be profitable.
I don't think the keyboard in 16" is exactly the same in all properties as standalone one. I haven't tried 16" myself but I have compared standalone version to butterfly MacBooks and there was no real difference is sound, they were equally loud or standalone even very little louder. So if the keyboard in 16" is noticeable quieter than butterfly KB in 2019 models, it is quieter.
Also based on the preliminary iFixit video where they removed the key and fitted standalone one to it mentioned standalone key looking higher, so it fits to mechanism but it is not exactly the same size. Also key travel is shorter in 16" if I understood correctly.
Anyway, my biggest complaint with Butterfly 2019 is the loudness. I much prefer short key travel. It causes much less strain to my hands using it. I use Logitech Craft with my desktop PC (it has 1.8 mm key travel) and it feels so long and harder to type with that than my MBP. It is much what you prefer and how you get accustomed to shorter key travel IMHO. When I first got my Craft about year ago (I had used standard long stroke keyboards before that and Zenbook that I have has rather long stroke too) it felt like crap. It took me few months to get accustomed to it and I liked it a lot (until got my MBP with even shorted stroke and I like it more) once I learned how to type these short stroke keyboards. The key thing with short stroke keys is not to hit them like old fashion typing machine keys, you need to learn to slide your fingers on the keys and then just press them lightly. If you type these with old fashion style, you will break the keyboard and your fingers!
I can easily understand this is purely up to each personal preferences and not all like short stoke keys at all and never will.
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Do you know the failure rate for previous 2015 MacBook Pro's computers? It was in the 5-6% range. Just because there is a similar keyboard in the 16" doesn't mean that people won't have issues be it a new design. The 2019's with butterfly I still see as a better buy be it a refined design with a lot of fixes over the years. You don't know if the new keyboard will be as reliable as the 2019's also you are just assuming.
As far as apple offering a 4 year warranty on even the 2019's, well what do you think a company should do with a bad name for a keyboard design from prior years? Even if they fixed the keyboard with the new parts the name is tainted at this point and less people will buy it because of that. EVEN if it is 100% fixed. So this is why in my eyes apple needed to put the 2019's on the list. For piece of mind with customers not because they are claiming that there will still be issues. Its pretty clear to see why apple did it imo.
Source on the 2015 having a 5-6% keyboard failure rate? I seriously doubt it's anything near that.
And I'm confident this keyboard is essentially fixed since they reverted to a tried and true design.
And I'm confident this keyboard is essentially fixed since they reverted to a tried and true design.
Just because the battery ages doesn't mean you need to really replace it. Ive known a lot of people that just keep their laptop plugged in with over 8 years on their machines. All im saying is 4 years is a pretty low number for the hardware In these machines. I don't really think computers over the last 5 years will be any different than the 2010's in terms of reliability. Sure there are issues that pop up here and there but I mostly put that on bad luck and how you treat the machine over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if I still see 2016's in 2024.Not necessarily die completely but there may be likely some or several parts that need to be replaced and they are more or less expensive considering value of the machine is close to nothing after couple of years. Simple things like the battery require the whole top cover assembly replacement including the keyboard etc, so you will be looking few hundred dollar cost for simple battery replacement. Also there are many other things that can fail or deteriorate to point that may need to replace for that (like the ar-coatings, logic board (=mainboard), flex cables, or display having bluish spots and so on). It is more or less the same with other manufacturer machines too but many others still have (pretty easily/cheaply) replaceable batteries which have limited lifespan.
I'm looking forward for hearing your experiences with your 2019 in 2025. Please post your comments then
Correct, but that is glued to the top case, so you will get always new battery and top case too. Not sure if even Touch Bar come with it??
Anyway, considering the fact the battery will need replacement sooner or later in coming years that additional keyboard warranty is actually very nice.
I quite like the tactile response of the butterfly keyboard over the return to scissor keys. I'm fine with either one and I wouldn't have minded if Apple stuck with the butterfly design.
Well not necessarily but they have limited shelf time and even not using it for years causes battery to age. Depending on charge level and temp it happens quickly or quicker.
It is depending on many factors, whether that will be a problem or not is hard to predict. Anyway, batteries used in todays machines (not just Apple) don't seems quite so reliable as they used to be. You can see problems with swelling batteries with just year old machines, so you cannot just ignore the battery even you don't ever use it on battery...I'm looking forward to hear from your own experiences of todays machines in 2024/2025.
Exactly this, at the end of the day the old MBP keyboard and magic keyboard are just about universally praised, the butterfly always has been divisive, reliability issues or no. It makes sense to base something as key as the keyboard on a near universally praised design, not a divisive one.
If there are problems, though, they should be a lot easier to resolve than the repair requirements if the Butterfly series.
My take away was that given any keyboard that if you're forced to use it then it will eventually lead to Stockholm Syndrome.
This is how I see it too. The earlier models had problems, and some people got screwed. These folks have a legitimate gripe. I think the failure rate on the 2019 KB is much less, and acceptable given the fact that all keyboard designs risk failure. I just don't see that many complaints posted about the latest version. On top of that, you get a 4 year warranty, which is just Apple's way of standing behind their product and acknowledging the hit to their reputation from the older KB. It's nothing to freak out about.
BTW - If you read posts about any mass produced laptop that has been in the wild for 6 months or so, you are going to find complaints of some kind. Let's see what the MR boards look like in 6 months after the release of the 16in MBP. And, if Apple does find a problem and fixes it, the issue will continue to resonate for a long while through this echo chamber of discontent.
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...I'd also note that the "Magic" keyboard design is already a compromise between the old keyboard and the butterfly - with about half the travel, lower-profile and marginally larger keys c.f. the 'classic' design.
So it's not like the butterfly fans have been totally dumped. I prefer the old one, but I suspect that butterfly fans will find "Magic" more to their liking.
I disagree. Butterfly keyboard was **** and I upgraded from the 2018 13-inch MacBook Pro as soon as this model was released. I am so happy typing on this scissor keyboard.
You know at least from this thread that people who like typing on the butterfly keyboard do exist. Never said anything about knowing those people in person.