Coronavirus (Covid-19) informational thread

[yaxomoxay]

This virus, and its many variants, are going to be around a long time. We, as humans, need to realize that now.

That doesn’t meant that our behavior and policies when we have vaccines and 300 deaths/day (less than other stuff) should be the same to when we have no vaccines and 3000-5000 deaths a day.

Human life is more important than the economy. If citizens were supported, the economy will still be here. I mean, you want damage? Wait until the mass evictions start. Wouldn't it be easier, and cheaper int he long run, to support human life, than allow it to be kicked to the curb?

The fact that you disconnect the economy from human life is telling. No, the economy will not be here by definition. It might, it might not. The economy doesn’t live in a vacuum. And what do you think that can support human life if the economy is crashed?

 

[pshufd]

Someone upstream did.

Who wouldn't expect 'economic damage' after what has happened, and IS happening. (AWK!)

Human life is more important than the economy. If citizens were supported, the economy will still be here. I mean, you want damage? Wait until the mass evictions start. Wouldn't it be easier, and cheaper int he long run, to support human life, than allow it to be kicked to the curb?

In the long-term, though, the prosperity of the country depends on the economy. Which means that you have to keep it in mind and feed it in the short and long term

 

[pshufd]

It seems like the only reason to mask-up and lock-down is to protect unvaccinated people. The CDC has been consistent about saying that vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected and much less likely to be hospitalized or die. Their current position is that vaccinations work to protect the vaccinated. So, we are talking about protecting the unvaccinated.

Generally, there are three Categories of unvaccinated:
1. Adults that are eligible but refuse to get vaccinated
2. Adults that are ineligible for medical reasons
3. Children under 12 y.o.

Frankly, I am not very sympathetic to the first group, and I am disinclined to have my freedoms limited because these folks refuse to be vaccinated. I am much more sympathetic to the second and third group. I really have no idea how big the second group is so I might be persuaded on their behalf. As for children, as adults, we have an obligation to protect them. But, the data seems to show pretty clearly that young kids under 12 just don’t seem to have sever health effects from COVID. Of course, there are rare tragic exceptions, but I am talking about the vast majority of the younger population.

Estimates are that there were 1.8 million new cases of cancer in 2020 in the United States.

If we assume that 80% went on chemo, then you have 864,000 people likely immunocompromised. I can not talk about all of the different types of chemo drugs out there but I took two of them and either alone will do a great job at destroying your red and white blood counts. So you do all of the things that normal people do in a pandemic. In addition, you don't shave or otherwise risk getting cut because your ability to clot is degraded.

That's just cancer.

Of course you can get vaccinated when your course of cancer is over and you wait a certain amount of time. A friend of mine got his first dose today. He's stage four and his markers were rising so he had to go back on chemo for a while.

 

[pshufd]

The fact that you disconnect the economy from human life is telling. No, the economy will not be here by definition. It might, it might not. The economy doesn’t live in a vacuum. And what do you think that can support human life if the economy is crashed?

We tend to take the economy for granted because it works. But there's a ton of stuff that happens so that it does work.

In some places, it doesn't work that well and the people that live in those places know that.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

It seems like the only reason to mask-up and lock-down is to protect unvaccinated people. The CDC has been consistent about saying that vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected and much less likely to be hospitalized or die. Their current position is that vaccinations work to protect the vaccinated. So, we are talking about protecting the unvaccinated.

Generally, there are three Categories of unvaccinated:
1. Adults that are eligible but refuse to get vaccinated
2. Adults that are ineligible for medical reasons
3. Children under 12 y.o.

Frankly, I am not very sympathetic to the first group, and I am disinclined to have my freedoms limited because these folks refuse to be vaccinated. I am much more sympathetic to the second and third group. I really have no idea how big the second group is so I might be persuaded on their behalf. As for children, as adults, we have an obligation to protect them. But, the data seems to show pretty clearly that young kids under 12 just don’t seem to have sever health effects from COVID. Of course, there are rare tragic exceptions, but I am talking about the vast majority of the younger population.

View attachment 1812967

Sorry, but you are wrong. With the Delta variant, doing masks and lock downs protects everyone. If vaccinated people can infect others, and now vaccinated people can get sick too, we are back to stage one again. Masks and social distancing, and lock downs too will help protect all of us, to some level. It's looking like 'immunity' is going to be a higher ring to grasp. Damn...

 

[pshufd]

Sorry, but you are wrong. With the Delta variant, doing masks and lock downs protects everyone. If vaccinated people can infect others, and now vaccinated people can get sick too, we are back to stage one again. Masks and social distancing, and lock downs too will help protect all of us, to some level. It's looking like 'immunity' is going to be a higher ring to grasp. Damn...

I'll take the Delta vaccine.

We don't have the political will to pay people to stay home in a lockdown here. So people will be financially desperate and go out and work, shop, etc.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

That doesn’t meant that our behavior and policies when we have vaccines and 300 deaths/day (less than other stuff) should be the same to when we have no vaccines and 3000-5000 deaths a day.




The fact that you disconnect the economy from human life is telling. No, the economy will not be here by definition. It might, it might not. The economy doesn’t live in a vacuum. And what do you think that can support human life if the economy is crashed?

'The economy' is driven by people buying and selling things. If there aren't any people, there isn't an economy. Also, if the people dont have money, and/or a home, there isn't much of an economy either. The ultra rich will not be enough to save 'the economy'. Other countries were giving their citizens monthly stipends to help them survive. TO pay rent, to buy food. America? We god table scraps, and even that took a lot of effort...

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I'll take the Delta vaccine.

We don't have the political will to pay people to stay home in a lockdown here. So people will be financially desperate and go out and work, shop, etc.

And spread the variants around...

 

[pshufd]

'The economy' is driven by people buying and selling things. If there aren't any people, there isn't an economy. Also, if the people dont have money, and/or a home, there isn't much of an economy either. The ultra rich will not be enough to save 'the economy'. Other countries were giving their citizens monthly stipends to help them survive. TO pay rent, to buy food. America? We god table scraps, and even that took a lot of effort...

The economy is a lot more complex than that.

 

[pshufd]

And spread the variants around...

The Delta vaccine will cover the other variants too.

 

[yaxomoxay]

'The economy' is driven by people buying and selling things. If there aren't any people, there isn't an economy. Also, if the people dont have money, and/or a home, there isn't much of an economy either. The ultra rich will not be enough to save 'the economy'. Other countries were giving their citizens monthly stipends to help them survive. TO pay rent, to buy food. America? We god table scraps, and even that took a lot of effort...

What a simplistic view. You have no idea how much the loss of sales tax revenue damaged us (you know, the guys that provide the services) during 3Q and 4Q FY20, going into 1Q FY21. The impact was huge and it will have repercussions for years to come. And we’re lucky that we’re in Texas so the lockdown etc were minimal.

now I am bracing to see the impact of the reduction in property tax and sales tax % on the school system.

 

[Mainsail]

Sorry, but you are wrong. With the Delta variant, doing masks and lock downs protects everyone. If vaccinated people can infect others, and now vaccinated people can get sick too, we are back to stage one again. Masks and social distancing, and lock downs too will help protect all of us, to some level. It's looking like 'immunity' is going to be a higher ring to grasp. Damn...

You are not following the science or the CDC’s position. They have clearly stated that the vaccines are highly protective against sever COVID, even in the rare occasion when there is a breakthrough infection. Also, the CDC has repeatedly stated that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected in the first place. So, who Are we protecting? The unvaccinated.

This kind of misunderstanding is playing right into the hands of the anti-vaxxers. You are stepping on the argument for getting vaccinated in the first place And muddling the message, which will do a heck of a lot more damage than good.

 

[iOS Geek]

I do have to say…given the fact that I responded pretty strongly to my second dose (I missed about a WEEK of work and still felt like crap for a few days after that), the fact that mask requirements are making a comeback…just…sucks.

I’ve had to wear one at work despite being vaccinated anyway, because, well…hospital. No complaints about that one. But it was nice to not have to wear it literally everywhere else. I felt absolutely awful after my second dose (I’ve had bad cases of the flu that didn’t make me feel that bad). Just sucks a bit having to go back to the way things were when I was without it (before it was available).

We spent a year being told that the vaccine was was our way out. And for those of us who went and got it, we are once again subjected to the same restrictions as those who didn’t bother. I have made every sacrifice that was asked of me (and even MORE because I work in healthcare). I followed every rule to the letter and I’m being put right back to where I was before I got my shot. There are a lot of people who are on the fence and I sort of think this is NOT helping. Can’t even begin to tell you just how many “putting these restrictions and requirements back on vaccinated people proves the shot doesn’t work” comments I’ve seen online. I do think the experts and especially the media need to get their messaging clearer (but I’ve been saying that since March of last year, so I guess it won’t happen). I haven’t had the time to look more into this one, but I saw a claim today from the CDC that vaccinated people can transmit COVID just as easily as unvaccinated people. Whether true or false, that is absolutely one of the most damaging things that could be said. Thanks to vaccinations being available, we are in a completely different situation than we were in this time last year. But based on responses and messaging, you’d never notice.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I do have to say…given the fact that I responded pretty strongly to my second dose (I missed about a WEEK of work and still felt like crap for a few days after that), the fact that mask requirements are making a comeback…just…sucks.

I’ve had to wear one at work despite being vaccinated anyway, because, well…hospital. No complaints about that one. But it was nice to not have to wear it literally everywhere else. I felt absolutely awful after my second dose (I’ve had bad cases of the flu that didn’t make me feel that bad). Just sucks a bit having to go back to the way things were when I was without it (before it was available).

We spent a year being told that the vaccine was was our way out. And for those of us who went and got it, we are once again subjected to the same restrictions as those who didn’t bother. I have made every sacrifice that was asked of me (and even MORE because I work in healthcare). I followed every rule to the letter and I’m being put right back to where I was before I got my shot. There are a lot of people who are on the fence and I sort of think this is NOT helping. Can’t even begin to tell you just how many “putting these restrictions and requirements back on vaccinated people proves the shot doesn’t work” comments I’ve seen online. I do think the experts and especially the media need to get their messaging clearer (but I’ve been saying that since March of last year, so I guess it won’t happen). I haven’t had the time to look more into this one, but I saw a claim today from the CDC that vaccinated people can transmit COVID just as easily as unvaccinated people. Whether true or false, that is absolutely one of the most damaging things that could be said. Thanks to vaccinations being available, we are in a completely different situation than we were in this time last year. But based on responses and messaging, you’d never notice.

But if a mask helps, why fight it. I don't understand... People equate it to a bridle, or a straight jacket. It's neither.

 

[iOS Geek]

But if a mask helps, why fight it. I don't understand... People equate it to a bridle, or a straight jacket. It's neither.

I’m not fighting it. I’m following the rules. Just said it sucks to go backwards, considering I did everything I was told it would take to go forward. That’s all.

I wear one for 12+ hours a day. Trust me, I don’t have any sympathy for people who, as you said, equate it to a bridle or a straight jacket. I can wear it and still think it sucks. (Perfectly capable of doing both). I don’t enjoy wearing them and the skin on my face definitely doesn’t (especially the N95’s)…but I do it. Between long days at work and having to wear one literally everywhere else, I felt like I basically lived in one. It was nice to be able to not have to wear one to a store, for example, that’s all.

 

[iluvmacs99]

It seems like the only reason to mask-up and lock-down is to protect unvaccinated people. The CDC has been consistent about saying that vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected and much less likely to be hospitalized or die. Their current position is that vaccinations work to protect the vaccinated. So, we are talking about protecting the unvaccinated.

Generally, there are three Categories of unvaccinated:
1. Adults that are eligible but refuse to get vaccinated
2. Adults that are ineligible for medical reasons
3. Children under 12 y.o.

There is a 4th category that is not mentioned here.

The 4th category is with people, like Michael Andrews of the US Olympic swimming team and myself who had developed natural immunity from natural infection of COVID, recovered and have the necessary immunity almost equivalent to someone who had the 1st shot for the vaccine with the Delta variant and 2 shots with the original strain. The scientific community is selling a vaccine narrative; basically saying that vaccine is the ONLY WAY to get immunity. It is not. Now, I am not saying that the vaccine isn't helpful as I had gotten 2 doses of the mRNA vaccine myself to help with my LONG Covid. But to say that adults that are eligible but refused vaccination is to me a clear insult to many of us who had natural immunity to COVID, a clear sign of ignorance and brain washing done by some government entity which hasn't come clean and told the truth about natural immunity to protect the big Pharma business and how the immunity works either, because there is a great emphasis of anti-bodies to protect you from the infection, but instead it is much more complicated than that. They made it so that we can sell the vaccine narrative with more antibodies, which is why there is now a big push for a booster dose.

If someone like Michael Andrews who clearly didn't suffer LONG Covid and had no reason to get a vaccine; why then we have this desire to scapegoat people like him that people who had natural immunity are not doing our part? Now, I'm not trying to defend Michael Andrews either nor want to speak on his behalf. Current science has now demonstrated that there is no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated in terms of infecting others with the Delta variant, but what is also true at least for me that we can also avoid hospitalization and serious illness with naturally infected but unvaccinated individuals.

Why isn't there a serious effort in research towards people like Michael Andrews and myself and learn how our immunity ticks. What makes us so that we can be immune to a novel virus? Even while I'm in this Canadian study myself, I can sense that they are JUST DOING it for the sakes of just doing this research. There is no sincerity to learn from us how we could adapt to this clever virus. There is no desire to go beyond the box other than adopting the current vaccine narrative and antibodies. I clearly didn't have antibodies for COVID for 2019, so why people keep promoting that you need antibodies to fight COVID. It doesn't make sense to me, but no one in the science community want to answer it, because antibodies sell vaccine and make profits, but naturally occurring memory cells response and why they came to be don't.

The government is really trying to protect those people who are the wealthy and the debtors who owe money to the rich, because a dead unvaccinated or vaccinated citizen of a country no longer can pay their taxes, their mortgages and their rents, and more likely you will get more dead unvaccinated debtors than vaccinated when infected with the Delta variant, so is it a surprise government are protecting their source of income and revenue from the unvaccinated if it weren't for the money interest that the rich don't want to loose!?!

 

[Mainsail]

There is a 4th category that is not mentioned here.

The 4th category is with people, like Michael Andrews of the US Olympic swimming team and myself who had developed natural immunity from natural infection of COVID, recovered and have the necessary immunity almost equivalent to someone who had the 1st shot for the vaccine with the Delta variant and 2 shots with the original strain. The scientific community is selling a vaccine narrative; basically saying that vaccine is the ONLY WAY to get immunity. It is not. Now, I am not saying that the vaccine isn't helpful as I had gotten 2 doses of the mRNA vaccine myself to help with my LONG Covid. But to say that adults that are eligible but refused vaccination is to me a clear insult to many of us who had natural immunity to COVID, a clear sign of ignorance and brain washing done by some government entity which hasn't come clean and told the truth about natural immunity to protect the big Pharma business and how the immunity works either, because there is a great emphasis of anti-bodies to protect you from the infection, but instead it is much more complicated than that. They made it so that we can sell the vaccine narrative with more antibodies, which is why there is now a big push for a booster dose.

If someone like Michael Andrews who clearly didn't suffer LONG Covid and had no reason to get a vaccine; why then we have this desire to scapegoat people like him that people who had natural immunity are not doing our part? Now, I'm not trying to defend Michael Andrews either nor want to speak on his behalf. Current science has now demonstrated that there is no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated in terms of infecting others with the Delta variant, but what is also true at least for me that we can also avoid hospitalization and serious illness with naturally infected but unvaccinated individuals.

Why isn't there a serious effort in research towards people like Michael Andrews and myself and learn how our immunity ticks. What makes us so that we can be immune to a novel virus? Even while I'm in this Canadian study myself, I can sense that they are JUST DOING it for the sakes of just doing this research. There is no sincerity to learn from us how we could adapt to this clever virus. There is no desire to go beyond the box other than adopting the current vaccine narrative and antibodies. I clearly didn't have antibodies for COVID for 2019, so why people keep promoting that you need antibodies to fight COVID. It doesn't make sense to me, but no one in the science community want to answer it, because antibodies sell vaccine and make profits, but naturally occurring memory cells response and why they came to be don't.

The government is really trying to protect those people who are the wealthy and the debtors who owe money to the rich, because a dead unvaccinated or vaccinated citizen of a country no longer can pay their taxes, their mortgages and their rents, and more likely you will get more dead unvaccinated debtors than vaccinated when infected with the Delta variant, so is it a surprise government are protecting their source of income and revenue from the unvaccinated if it weren't for the money interest that the rich don't want to loose!?!

Look, if someone thinks they have natural immunity and want to take a chance, so be it. Or if you think you have natural immunity, but want to get the vaccine anyway, great! But, I don’t see any reason why I need to have to wear a mask to protect this group should they decide not to get vaccinated, which was my point. This still sounds like group 1 in my list….adults that are eligible but may elect not to get vaccinated. I am not particularly sympathetic.

As I said earlier, I am sympathetic to people that are not eligible to be vaccinated for medical reasons, but I have no idea how large of a group this is.

btw - it is untrue that there is no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated in transmitting the infection. The CDC clearly state on Tuesday that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected …… 3 times less likely. You can not transmit if you are not infected. People keep missing this important point. The CDCis new science was that, given someone is infected, vaccinated and unvaccinated seem to be carrying about the same amount of viral load. That does not mean they are just as likely to infect another person, since vaccinated are less likely to get infected in the first place.

 

[bradl]

You are not following the science or the CDC’s position. They have clearly stated that the vaccines are highly protective against sever COVID, even in the rare occasion when there is a breakthrough infection. Also, the CDC has repeatedly stated that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected in the first place. So, who Are we protecting? The unvaccinated.

This kind of misunderstanding is playing right into the hands of the anti-vaxxers. You are stepping on the argument for getting vaccinated in the first place And muddling the message, which will do a heck of a lot more damage than good.

Not for nothing, but the CDC also did state that with the delta variant, those who are vaccinated are not immune from catching that variant, let alone becoming carriers and transmitters of that variant, despite being vaccinated. The Provincetown super spreader event proved that.

BL.

 

[Mainsail]

Not for nothing, but the CDC also did state that with the delta variant, those who are vaccinated are not immune from catching that variant, let alone becoming carriers and transmitters of that variant, despite being vaccinated. The Provincetown super spreader event proved that.

BL.

But, CDC did say that vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected…..3 times less likely. Then, if they do get infected, they are 10 times less likely to have sever illness or death. That’s pretty damn good.

 

[LordVic]

But, CDC did say that vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected…..3 times less likely. Then, if they do get infected, they are 10 times less likely to have sever illness or death. That’s pretty damn good.

I'm of the opinion that once we all hit a point where everyone who wants it, has both shots. Than it's time to be open again. We can't protect ourselves any further at that point. But it should be no more "deadly" than the season flu since enough of us should give significant herd immunity.

I'm just eager to get there, but its slow and no nation is at that state. But for those of us who are double vaxxed. We're as protected as we're ever going to be.

I went to the bar yesterday (distancing between tables still around) for the first time in over a year. I had pub food and a few beers. It was glorious.

 

[iOS Geek]

I'm of the opinion that once we all hit a point where everyone who wants it, has both shots. Than it's time to be open again. We can't protect ourselves any further at that point. But it should be no more "deadly" than the season flu since enough of us should give significant herd immunity.

I'm just eager to get there, but its slow and no nation is at that state. But for those of us who are double vaxxed. We're as protected as we're ever going to be.

I went to the bar yesterday (distancing between tables still around) for the first time in over a year. I had pub food and a few beers. It was glorious.

Not a beer fan, but you had me at pub food! I could go for some of that right about now. Thanks a lot 😂

 

[bradl]

But, CDC did say that vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected…..3 times less likely. Then, if they do get infected, they are 10 times less likely to have sever illness or death. That’s pretty damn good.

To be exact, the CDC said that vaccinated people are much less likely to suffer the severe symptoms of COVID, not get infected by COVID. That is a distinct difference. Especially with this variant, you can still get infected by it and transmit it, especially if the vaccinated were getting the same amount of viral infection as the unvaccinated.

A CDC Document Gives New Details On Just How Dangerous The Delta Variant Really Is

The CDC information dated Thursday gives new details on this variant of the coronavirus and says the agency should "acknowledge that the war has changed." It was first reported by The Washington Post.

www.npr.org

The major excerpt:

Data from a July 4 outbreak on Cape Cod, in Massachusetts, appears to have led CDC Director Rochelle Walensky earlier this week to recommend that fully vaccinated people wear a mask indoors in public spaces if they live in areas where the spread of the virus is currently "substantial" or "high."

In that outbreak, vaccinated and unvaccinated people had nearly the same amount of virus recovered from test samples, indicating that vaccinated people are just as contagious as unvaccinated people when it comes to the delta variant.

The likeliness of getting infected isn't what the vaccine was intended to alleviate; what it was to alleviate were the major symptoms that would cause hospitalization and death.

BL.

 

[Mainsail]

To be exact, the CDC said that vaccinated people are much less likely to suffer the severe symptoms of COVID, not get infected by COVID. That is a distinct difference. Especially with this variant, you can still get infected by it and transmit it, especially if the vaccinated were getting the same amount of viral infection as the unvaccinated.

A CDC Document Gives New Details On Just How Dangerous The Delta Variant Really Is

The CDC information dated Thursday gives new details on this variant of the coronavirus and says the agency should "acknowledge that the war has changed." It was first reported by The Washington Post.

www.npr.org

The major excerpt:



The likeliness of getting infected isn't what the vaccine was intended to alleviate; what it was to alleviate were the major symptoms that would cause hospitalization and death.

BL.

CDC said you are 3 times less likely to get infected if you are vaccinated. Once infected you may be equally likely to transmit. But, you are less likely to get infected in the first place. This has been a major point of confusion.

CDC shares 'pivotal discovery' on Covid-19 breakthrough infections that led to new mask guidance | CNN

A new study shows the Delta Covid-19 variant produced similar amounts of virus in vaccinated and unvaccinated people if they get infected -- illustrating a key motivation behind the federal guidance that now recommends most fully vaccinated Americans wear masks indoors.

www.cnn.com

The problem is….you have to keep reading to see the part where they say the vaccine provides significant protection against getting infected.

”The CDC internal document estimated that vaccines reduce the risk of severe disease or death 10-fold or greater, and they reduce the risk of infection three-fold”

This whole thing has been an absolute communication disaster for the CDC, and the media hasn’t helped. They highlight the most sensational part and bury some important facts. Then, they wonder why people are runnning around saying the vaccines aren’t effective.

 

[yaxomoxay]

This whole thing has been an absolute communication disaster for the CDC, and the media hasn’t helped. They highlight the most sensational part and bury some important facts. Then, they wonder why people are runnning around saying the vaccines aren’t effective.

I wholeheartedly agree. See my post above with CNN and WaPo’s screenshots.

 

[bradl]

CDC said you are 3 times less likely to get infected if you are vaccinated. Once infected you may be equally likely to transmit. But, you are less likely to get infected in the first place. This has been a major point of confusion.

CDC shares 'pivotal discovery' on Covid-19 breakthrough infections that led to new mask guidance | CNN

A new study shows the Delta Covid-19 variant produced similar amounts of virus in vaccinated and unvaccinated people if they get infected -- illustrating a key motivation behind the federal guidance that now recommends most fully vaccinated Americans wear masks indoors.

www.cnn.com

The problem is….you have to keep reading to see the part where they say the vaccine provides significant protection against getting infected.

”The CDC internal document estimated that vaccines reduce the risk of severe disease or death 10-fold or greater, and they reduce the risk of infection three-fold”

This whole thing has been an absolute communication disaster for the CDC, and the media hasn’t helped. They highlight the most sensational part and bury some important facts. Then, they wonder why people are runnning around saying the vaccines aren’t effective.

The issue however isn't just a communication blunder by the CDC, but the general misconception of what this vaccine does. The vaccine isn't the panacea, to where it completely destroys the virus making you totally immune and impervious to the virus; you can blame the former POTUS for that misinformation..

However the vaccine will provide immunity from the major symptoms of the virus, but not the actual virus itself. Like the flu, the flu shot protects you from the major symptoms of it, but doesn't prevent you from catching the virus to begin with, let alone prevent you from being the carrier that infects someone else with that flu strain.

The common misconception of the vaccine being something that gives absolute 100% immunity is the problem, and that hasn't been tackled properly. Plus add into that the misinformation already going around about this being a hoax or those being completely intolerant to the virus, and we get the problem that we have now. But can you blame the CDC for that ignorance?

BL.