Nope. Try again. Comparing influenza to sars will not hold water in any bucket
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Coronavirus (Covid-19) informational thread
- Thread starter yaxomoxay
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You're right there. It's a grey area on if companies force individuals to get vaccinated. Now, if they offered it as a benefit at no cost to the employee, they may have something. I'd expect that in either way, such a move would get challenged in court. But then again, Jacobsen may make that moot.
He isn't comparing the viruses; he is comparing the degrading effects of the vaccines over a period of time between the flu and COVID and seeing the pattern of how the vaccines effects degrade over time. That pattern is definitely there, especially with seeing the findings of the study in Israel.
BL.
I’d be curious to know what are the differences between the Delta and lambda. I know I could do some simple research, but typically there is a degree of variance of what makes one more dangerous over the other. With the Delta, we know it’s primarily a lot of the same symptoms, but more severe and more contagious. In my wife’s network of health professionals that she works with various doctors, they said ‘we can’t worry about Lambda until we get Delta under control’. Kind of makes sense, but still.
My recollection is that it has a couple of different ways to evade the vaccines. That was something I read a few weeks ago.
Just set me thinking about booster vaccines. Last year there was discussion about whether a booster would likely be needed. One specific consideration was that it just might be inadvisable for people to receive a third vaccination where all three use the same vector. This was specifically in relation to the Oxford AstraZeneva vaccine which used an adenovirus.
Whether the same consideration applies to mRNA vaccines, I wouldn't know. But it does suggest that a booster might need to be different to the first two vaccinations in some cases.
We also have a tendency to speak/write loosely and ignore that the Janssen vaccine is single-shot.
Whether the same consideration applies to mRNA vaccines, I wouldn't know. But it does suggest that a booster might need to be different to the first two vaccinations in some cases.
We also have a tendency to speak/write loosely and ignore that the Janssen vaccine is single-shot.
That would probably be harder to do in the United States unless independently done as the vaccine companies fund their own trials and would likely prefer to test their own booster with their own vaccines.
I believe the downside to the Adenovirus vector is that, when used often with the same vector, the body could raise the immune response against the vector itself rather than the antigen (the engineered spike protein in the vector) which then defeats the purpose of the vaccine.
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As I thought I understood
, the body becomes sensitised to the adenovirus such that even if it did confer some spike protein reaction, it would cause increasingly strong immune responses to the adenovirus - thus increasing "side" effects.Maybe both aspects are significant in terms of delivering an effective vaccine?
Regardless, there has been UK discussion about switching between Pfizer and AstraZeneca for many, or (if available) going for the upcoming Novavax (maybe Janssen, Moderna or something else).
Can't help wondering what really happens if two different vaccines are used? Do they end up re-provoking the response achieved by the first vaccine, or a de novo response to the new one, or something more complex?
But, so far as I am aware, as yet undecided on exactly what we in the UK are going to do.
The UK will provide the booster shots to tens of millions of people from September, The Telegraph newspaper reported on Sunday.
Some 32 million people would be eligible, including all those over the age of 50 and those who are immunocompromised. Shots will also be given to National Health Service workers and care home staff.
The boosters will be administered from September 6, according to the report.
Britain, Germany to begin giving 3rd doses of coronavirus vaccine
UK reportedly set to administer booster shots to those over aged 50 or immunocompromised from September; German authorities to offer the inoculation to vulnerable groups
www.timesofisrael.com
I'm surprised at how fast Israel, UK and Germany are moving on this compared to the US, especially since UK and Germany are using the longer gap between doses and thus, should have longer protection.
The UK will provide the booster shots to tens of millions of people from September, The Telegraph newspaper reported on Sunday.
Some 32 million people would be eligible, including all those over the age of 50 and those who are immunocompromised. Shots will also be given to National Health Service workers and care home staff.
The boosters will be administered from September 6, according to the report.
Britain, Germany to begin giving 3rd doses of coronavirus vaccine
UK reportedly set to administer booster shots to those over aged 50 or immunocompromised from September; German authorities to offer the inoculation to vulnerable groups
I'm surprised at how fast Israel, UK and Germany are moving on this compared to the US, especially since UK and Germany are using the longer gap between doses and thus, should have longer protection.
Since the UK has ordered around 500 million doses of vaccines in total, the alternative to moving fast is inevitably going to be wastage!
That's a lot of doses for a population of 70 million people.
The mRNA platform vaccine is not affected by this as well as the Sputnik V vaccine from Russia, which is Adenovirus based with 2 types; Adeno Type 5 and Adeno Type 26 and they are administered separately and thus won't allow the body to be sensitized to the vector as easily, but still able to trick the body to mount a response to the engineered antigen in the differing vector instead. The UAE is a country which is using the SinoPharm (inactivated virus), Pfizer Biontech (mRNA) and Sputnik V (Adenovirus vector) to allow them plenty of options for the booster shot if necessary.As I thought I understood
Maybe both aspects are significant in terms of delivering an effective vaccine?
So far, studies had shown that using 2 different platforms (Adenovirus + mRNA) will actually mount a higher immune response to the virus rather than using the same platform, seemed safe enough with manageable side-effects and produce more of the potent neutralizing antibodies against the variants. Canada is one of the countries that actually experimented with this, but later abandoned in favor of mixing Pfizer and Moderna when necessary because of the bad press Astra got and monetary compensations being paid out to people who got permanent side effect from Astra.
Another issue during the mixing experiment is that of branding preference and vaccine passport. On the street, the Pfizer Biontech vaccine is known as the Bourgeois of vaccine (upper class), Moderna being middle class and the Adenovirus being lower class because of the bad rap it got with the AstraZeneca and its blood clot side effects with a certain population. In Canada, it caused people to cancel appointments when they found out they are getting the Moderna or a mixed mRNA brand (eventhough it's based on the mRNA platform like Pfizer), and then reschedule intentionally so they can get the Pfizer, because they want their future vaccine passport in a form of an ArriveCan app to show Pfizer given for both shots or Moderna given for both shots. In some other countries, this causes confusion in vaccine passport eligibility where 2 of the same platform vaccines (namely Pfizer or Moderna) are recognized as fully vaccinated, but 2 differing platforms are not. This has caused unnecessary wasting of close to expiry Moderna and AstraZeneca vaccines which can save lives. This is not limited to only Canada, but around the world. Wasted vaccines do not save lives.
However, the plan I think with many nations is that by the time a booster shot is required is that the 2nd generation vaccine, which is the more traditional "protein-based with an adjuvant" will become approved for use. The top contender for this protein based vaccine is none other than Novavax. You probably heard this sometimes in the news with the anti-vax people saying that, they will only get vaxed with Novavax or with Sanofi-GSK which is another protein based vaccine. In Canada, we have Medicago-GSK vaccine from Quebec's firm Medicago which is a "plant based" adjuvant vaccine based on its "Proficia platform". In fact, I actually wanted to wait for the Medicago vaccine myself as the preferable platform, but took the mRNA vaccine to recover from LONG Covid. Protein based vaccine with an adjuvant is safe, trusted and easier to store in fridge temperature of 2-8 degrees Celsius as opposed to the Pfizer Biontech -70 degrees Celsius. So the Novavax' 2-8 Celsius storage for a minimum of 6 months is a plus. It can be stored in a doctor's fridge and can be administered broadly to the population. And besides, Protein based vaccines should promote a longer lasting immune response that can last at least 3 years and should be ok for mixing with other platforms as boosters, but like anything else more studies will need to be conducted to evaluate its safety and efficacy.
There's a saying that "good things will come to those who wait". I suspect that moving forward, many of us fully vaxed will probably get the Novavax or the Sanofi-GSK as boosters if necessary and those would become the dominant vaccines used to vax the global population and I suspect that Medicago-GSK would not be far behind with Canada using it to boost its domestic population and sharing the rest with Covax/Gavi on a humanitarian basis. Costs should become more reasonable with protein based vaccines and you don't need those specialized cold freezers which makes transportation and distribution of these vaccines to the world through Covax/Gavi much easier logistics wise.
The thing is that, we will not be free of COVID until all of us are free of COVID and that means vaccinations. Right now, the trend unfortunately is very predictable with first world nations getting vaxed, but the poorer countries like Africa not getting vaxed plenty enough. This is the same trend as the Rotavirus vaccine such as RotaTeg which was used in 2006 in the US and later RotaTrix in 2008, given in 3 doses to address the symptoms of vomiting and diarrhea after exposure to the Rotavirus. Despite the availability of these vaccines, more than 11 years later roughly 60% of the population of children still have yet to receive this vaccine. That's the inequality of vaccine distribution you will often see between rich and poor nations, but through Covax and Gavi (The Vaccine Alliance), I hope this inequality will be addressed well with the COVID vaccine and should be. Otherwise, you'll have instances when the border opens fully up and we have cross border travel and migrations that pockets of COVID infection will continue to happen if the global population are not fully and equally vaxed to achieve herd immunity, because so far 4 billion doses of COVID vaccines had been given to higher and middle income countries, eventhough they account for less than half the world population.
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Frankly, right now when epidemiologists can't even agree on how to deal with the Delta variant, we have a big problem. A major factor is that in countries with very high vaccination rates, the Delta variant may spread fast but people actually getting sick from the variant is not really that high. I worry more about countries where a large portion of the population have compromised pulmonary systems, like China with decades of dealing with bad air pollution and way too much cigarette smoking among the adult population (not to mention the somewhat lower protection rate of the Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines).
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Imagine Corona virus without internet, technological and medical advances?
It would've been 10 times disastrous i guess, technology certainly played a huge role saving millions of lives.
It would've been 10 times disastrous i guess, technology certainly played a huge role saving millions of lives.
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An interesting, but ultimately I suspect futile, way of viewing it.
Imagine Coronavirus happening in China pre-Marco Polo days. Is it possible it would never have reached us?
If there is any truth whatsoever in the idea of a lab being involved - even if it was just one of their bat collectors somehow coming into contact with a wild bat - we might think that technology was a part of the cause. (Trying to avoid any assumptions at all.)
Good point, but if you remember Black death Pandemic in 14th century it originated somewhere in Mongolia or China but spread all over the world and wiped out 1/3 of Europe population and millions around the world.
Back then if they had Internet and advanced medical and technology i am sure it would've saved millions of lives.
The Black Death: The Greatest Catastrophe Ever | History Today
www.historytoday.com
This is what we're really struggling with right now up here.
It's illegal for employers to ask for medical information, especially if it relates to employment. Our bosses cannot legally ask if we've been vaccinated. Or even if we've had a Covid test.
Even before vaccines, Employers have not been allowed to ask Covid information. We technically cannot even ask for proof of medical exemption for mask mandates. Our Branches are basically asking those not wearing masks who come in to wear it, and if they say no 'I have an exception" they're opting to serve the member anyways to get them out quickly.
This is one of those places where our privacy regulations surounding health data is getting in the way here. 99% of the time, I fully agree and support these restrictions, but right now, it's really hard to put those limits in place.
And our Provincial government who would be responsible for public health decisions has opted to have NO documentation that people can carry around to prove vaccination statuses. "we're not going to have a split society" is our current conservative governments decision on mandating vaccine certificates. (but then the next day begged the federal government to do something)
Honestly, this is one place I'm genuinely concerned being in Ontario. as an employer I want to mandate my staff have vaccines. Especially since we're Information Technology and have travel possibilities to 15 different branches. But again, I can't ask. I can't even say that I want them vaccinated. And technically my staff have zero obligation to legally tell us.
As I thought I understood
Maybe both aspects are significant in terms of delivering an effective vaccine?
Regardless, there has been UK discussion about switching between Pfizer and AstraZeneca for many, or (if available) going for the upcoming Novavax (maybe Janssen, Moderna or something else).
Can't help wondering what really happens if two different vaccines are used? Do they end up re-provoking the response achieved by the first vaccine, or a de novo response to the new one, or something more complex?
Look to us in Canada. you'll get some data eventually on mixed uses.
We have AstroZenica, Pfizer and Moderna all approved and given out. And we've been told that it's OK to mix. And for those of us who got our first shot of AZ, they out right recommended switching to one of the other vaccines for our second doses.
National Avisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) has stated they believe that a mixed dose will provide even better results than two of the same. At least if going from AZ to one of the mRNA ones.
I'm currently representing AstroDerna. Got my first shot of AZ in April, and then a second shot of Moderna in June. Aside from side affects both time knocking me out, Otherwise been fine.
We're a good guinea pig and very interested to see how well the vaccines do hold up for those of us (about 1 million Canadians) who got the AZ shot first and switched for the second.
There has been at least one significant trial of crossing over vaccines in the UK. I know at least some switched between Pfizer and AstraZeneca but not at all sure if anything else has been used.
Luckily for me, I had very little unpleasantness from first or second AstraZeneca - just a bit of tiredness and odd feeling of falling backwards! Both really mild.
I was staggered when the numbers were first announced. Unless we are going to either give the surplus away, or are effectively speculating in vaccines to eventually flog them at a profit, it seems mad. (Well aware they have limited storage life.)
First shot wasn't too bad (Astrozenica). Just had a fever and was tired. the Fever snuck up on me too. Didnt even feel bad. Was sitting working, and next thing I knew, my shirt was soaked from sweat. (I'm not usually a sweater)
The second shot did knock me on my ass hard. But i was warned doing the AZ -> Moderna route that was likely. Had a Fever, aches, pains, vertigo. All hit exactly 24 hours after. And went away completely after 48 hours. Woke up afterwards feeling great!
Probably similar to us. We ordered a few hundred million doses between AZ, Pfizer and Moderna. It was to hedge our bets last year before they were ready. We weren't sure which vaccines were going to be approved. So the government pre-bought all of them
We don't have local manufacturing though so we're at the mercy of the companies shipping to us. So we just, bought so many ahead of everyone else (I think we're expecting about 80 to 100 million doses by the end of 2021, for a country of 35 million)
We've announced that all excess vaccines that we don't use will be donated for free to developing nations who can't afford their own vaccines. Once we're done at least. Which is likely going to be soon. As of this morning 80% first doses, and 70% second doses for all qualified Canadians.
As for Ontario's Numbers today. Despite the small bump in cases last week after the next opening step. We've now seen 3 days straight of decreases again: We'll see if this continues as we just had a long weekend.
Ontario August 4th update: (Population 14 million)
139 New Cases
11 Deaths
17,000 tests with 0.81% positivity rate (OMG thats one of the best we've had!)
60,000 new vaccines administered yesterday bringing our totals to: 80.59% First Dose, 70.12% Second dose.
ICU's:108 (+2 yesterday, -14 from last week)
In time, perhaps the Darwinian pressures will identify who was vaccinated?
Fit and healthy man, 42, from Southport, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid
John Eyers had been climbing mountains four weeks before his death in intensive carehttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid
(This is very much NOT intended to be humorous. Just an observation that if vaccines continue to work more or less as they have done so far, and Covid does the same or worsens, the unvaccinated will reduce in number either as in this case or by a lot of changes of mind.)