Coronavirus (Covid-19) informational thread

[LordVic]

In time, perhaps the Darwinian pressures will identify who was vaccinated?

Fit and healthy man, 42, from Southport, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid​

John Eyers had been climbing mountains four weeks before his death in intensive care
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid

(This is very much NOT intended to be humorous. Just an observation that if vaccines continue to work more or less as they have done so far, and Covid does the same or worsens, the unvaccinated will reduce in number either as in this case or by a lot of changes of mind.)

The problem isn't the anti-vaxxers who are chosing to not get the shots. it's the people who cannot get the shots that are being put at additional risk because of the nutjobs refusing.

I'd estimate about 5% of our numbers of unvaccinated people can't for medical reasons. In Addition we haven't given shots to those < 12 years old.

Both these groups are at risk, but now elevated risk because 10% of our population is outright refusing to get the shot because "MUH FREEDOM!!!!!"

(that's also terrfiying given that I'm turning 41 this year, and unlike him, I'm 100% in the worst shape of my life, but hey, I just quit smoking, so hopefully that'll help()

 

[polyphenol]

The problem isn't the anti-vaxxers who are chosing to not get the shots. it's the people who cannot get the shots that are being put at additional risk because of the nutjobs refusing.

I'd estimate about 5% of our numbers of unvaccinated people can't for medical reasons. In Addition we haven't given shots to those < 12 years old.

Both these groups are at risk, but now elevated risk because 10% of our population is outright refusing to get the shot because "MUH FREEDOM!!!!!"

In another part of the online universe, I am involved in some health issues. (Not in any way qualified or professional - just support.)

Of those who have reported on an ongoing poll, some of those who are least well have sailed through vaccination, and some who are least unwell have suffered. I thought we might have seen some sort of a pattern. We haven't, or at least, not one discernable on a simplistic poll. But we have seen a number say they have changed their minds and having seen the results will now get vaccinated.

We have not so far vaccinated those below 18 except where there are special reasons. They have now said 16 and 17 year olds will be eligible.

 

[iluvmacs99]

In time, perhaps the Darwinian pressures will identify who was vaccinated?

Fit and healthy man, 42, from Southport, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid​

John Eyers had been climbing mountains four weeks before his death in intensive care
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid

(This is very much NOT intended to be humorous. Just an observation that if vaccines continue to work more or less as they have done so far, and Covid does the same or worsens, the unvaccinated will reduce in number either as in this case or by a lot of changes of mind.)

Unfortunately, this is an ignorant narrative that's continually being pushed by a wide variety of people, served well in the health and wellness industry and is partly to blame for the cause of vaccine hesitancy in people who are fit and healthy. I'm fit and healthy myself and had ran a 10k in 38minutes flat. But that's not a determination of how well your immune system works either.

Part of this ignorance is the mis-understanding or the unwillingness to learn more deeply in how our immune system works. Our immune system is a very complex machine and when it's working perfectly, it can deal with many old and new existing threats, namely COVID 19. Meaning that a working immune system can deal with any threats, produce the neutralizing antibodies to neutralize the threat and then keep that threat profile in its memory cells, the B cells for future threats. What's also interesting is that and there had been research done on this with COVID patients who recovered naturally and I'm part of that research is that, once this threat profile is in its memory cells, it can also produce "mutated" version of the antibodies through a process called "Somatic Hypermutation" to deal with the new variants and neutralize them! There are studies done by taking blood plasma of recovered COVID 19 patients through natural infection and then subjected to differing variants and the blood plasma successfully neutralize all other variants without the help of the vaccine.
What another study also found was that when you had been naturally infected by COVID and you had one shot of any vaccine, it greatly increases the potency of the neutralizing antibodies plus being also able to cross mutate the antibodies to any variants that are vaccine resistant such as the Lambda variant which is starting to show up in Canada and the new Delta Plus variant that shows up in the UK and in the USA. And that research and my doctor who is part of the research suggested that I get the shot. I got the Moderna shot and just 1 1/2 weeks later, I got something and I had slight symptoms of a headache, a mild cough and a runny nose. That only lasted like no more than 2 days and I then bounced back. What I noticed compared to my initial infection from COVID is that, the rate of recovery is just SO FAST. It's like a Ferrari rather than the Pinto rate I had to go through in 2020.

And immunity is currently being pushed as being; you can only get it with a needle and nothing else. This is NOT true, but unfortunately that's the narrative that's being pushed rather than perhaps a deeper acknowledgement that yes you can be infected by COVID if you haven't been vaccinated, which you WILL AT SOME POINT with the Delta variant and then educate them that and if you managed to survive the ordeal of the 1st infection and after full recovery of the initial infection is to also get the 1 shot of the vaccine to boost your natural immunity and then another boost dose later on which I did.

Natural immunity is not indicative that you must be an Olympic level athlete either. I've met people that's like your regular housewife and some smuck that watches a lot of TV but live a health lifestyle. Again, there's this notion that your immunity performance ties in somehow with your fitness level is so dated!

 

[pshufd]

WHO asks for moratorium on boosters. I can certainly understand why.

 

[bradl]

A new variant has now been detected in S. Korea. Disease experts are dubbing this "Delta Plus".

Delta Plus COVID-19 variant has been detected in South Korea

South Korea has confirmed the arrival in the country of the new Delta Plus COVID-19 variant, which some experts believe may be more dangerous than the original Delta strain driving surges across th…

nypost.com

Here’s what we know about the delta-plus variant

South Korea has detected its first two cases of a virus variant known as "delta plus." Health officials are on alert.

www.washingtonpost.com

Because of this, WHO is right in asking for a moratorium on booster shots, especially since there has been no studies on what more than the recommended dose would do to a person.

BL.

 

[polyphenol]

Disease experts are dubbing this "Delta Plus".

Doesn't that break the existing naming convention?

 

[bradl]

Doesn't that break the existing naming convention?

It should, yes. My understanding was that it was based on the Greek alphabet, unless this is supposed to be a slight variation of the Delta variant...

 

[polyphenol]

It should, yes. My understanding was that it was based on the Greek alphabet, unless this is supposed to be a slight variation of the Delta variant...

Precisely! If we allow variants to use the same name, we can end up with "just a tiny bit different", "quite a bit different", "massively different" but, because all are based on Delta they get called Delta Plus, Delta Plus Plus and Delta Plus Plus Plus - but not necessarily in order of badness! And if they found one that was halfway between Alpha and Beta would it end up AlphaBeta? Or would Google's parent kick up about that?

 

[bradl]

Precisely! If we allow variants to use the same name, we can end up with "just a tiny bit different", "quite a bit different", "massively different" but, because all are based on Delta they get called Delta Plus, Delta Plus Plus and Delta Plus Plus Plus - but not necessarily in order of badness! And if they found one that was halfway between Alpha and Beta would it end up AlphaBeta? Or would Google's parent kick up about that?

Ahh. I see why they did what they did. From the New York Post:

The strain has similar characteristics to the original Delta variant but also has a mutation in the spike protein called K417N, which was also found in the Beta variant.

So not a true mutation in the sense that it's a different strain altogether, but a mutation that is still likened to Delta.

BL.

 

[macsound1]

Precisely! If we allow variants to use the same name, we can end up with "just a tiny bit different", "quite a bit different", "massively different" but, because all are based on Delta they get called Delta Plus, Delta Plus Plus and Delta Plus Plus Plus - but not necessarily in order of badness! And if they found one that was halfway between Alpha and Beta would it end up AlphaBeta? Or would Google's parent kick up about that?

Maybe they're just appending Delta because then everyone gets extra miles.

Personally I'm waiting for the Southwest variant. It's going to be so disorganized and no frills.

 

[iOS Geek]

A new variant has now been detected in S. Korea. Disease experts are dubbing this "Delta Plus".

Delta Plus COVID-19 variant has been detected in South Korea

South Korea has confirmed the arrival in the country of the new Delta Plus COVID-19 variant, which some experts believe may be more dangerous than the original Delta strain driving surges across th…

nypost.com

Here’s what we know about the delta-plus variant

South Korea has detected its first two cases of a virus variant known as "delta plus." Health officials are on alert.

www.washingtonpost.com

Because of this, WHO is right in asking for a moratorium on booster shots, especially since there has been no studies on what more than the recommended dose would do to a person.

BL.

I’m sensing an Apple naming theme here. Wonder when Delta Pro Max comes in!

Ok now that I got that dumb attempt at humor out of my system (I’m tired, what do you expect)! I do agree with the moratorium on the boosters. Personally, when looking at how bad my side effects from the second dose were, I want some solid data before considering (or at the rate my state is going…getting forced into) a third shot.

 

[polyphenol]

Maybe they're just appending Delta because then everyone gets extra miles.

Personally I'm waiting for the Southwest variant. It's going to be so disorganized and no frills.

Just wait for them to reach the new mu variant - the broadcasters will make a pig's ear of it - to be followed by the new nu one.

 

[bradl]

Maybe they're just appending Delta because then everyone gets extra miles.

Personally I'm waiting for the Southwest variant. It's going to be so disorganized and no frills.

Have you seen Spirit lately? They're making SWA look like they're in the private charter business with gold plated toilets in the lavs!

Seriously though, it's a good call by the WHO and hopefully the rest of the world follows suit. Trying to be greedy and get 3rd and even 4th shots while less than 10% of an entire continent hasn't had a first shot will do nothing to stem the spread of the virus. We need those areas covered first before we can even begin to think about boosters.

BL.

 

[baypharm]

I’ve begun to use Sotrovimab in some extreme patient cases. It’s experimental but hopeful.

 

[A.Goldberg]

I’ve begun to use Sotrovimab in some extreme patient cases. It’s experimental but hopeful.

Technically the MAb’s are not supposed to be used in severe COVID cases (those hospitalized or on supplemental O2 for COVID), but there are studies happening and the expanded access program being utilized.

To a large degree they are not authorized to treat COVID because there hasn’t been enough research into this cohort to know if it’s safe. The pharmaceutical companies rarely test new drugs on the severely ill due to liability concerns and the potential of negatively skewing their results. In the case of COVID, I always found this lack of research quite ridiculous. That said preliminary data suggested from at least one of the products suggested in no benefit in severe cases but…

There was some large-scale research that came out maybe a month ago suggesting the MAb’s alone are not effective in treating severe COVID, however in combination with dexamethasone it has a synergistic benefit, but it’s really only effective in patients who for whatever reason have not naturally formed antibodies against the virus.

Interestingly, REGEN-COV (casirivimab + imdevimab) just got an EUA for use for post-exposure prophylaxis within 96hrs in high risk patients, particularly those who are immunocompromised. I have some major issues with how they conducted their study, but theoretically it should provide some benefit. For immunocompromised patients who may not benefit from the vaccine, this could be quite significant.

The only problem is a lot of people don’t know they’ve been in contact until they develop the symptoms.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Have you seen Spirit lately? They're making SWA look like they're in the private charter business with gold plated toilets in the lavs!

Seriously though, it's a good call by the WHO and hopefully the rest of the world follows suit. Trying to be greedy and get 3rd and even 4th shots while less than 10% of an entire continent hasn't had a first shot will do nothing to stem the spread of the virus. We need those areas covered first before we can even begin to think about boosters.

BL.

I generally have to agree. The media has created this perception that vaccinated Americans are dropping dead left and right from breakthrough cases. In reality, looking at 125,000 reported US breakthrough cases, that’s out of something like 190,000,000 vaccinated Americans… that’s like 0.06%. And that’s with vaccines that are 72% (J&J) to 94-95% (Moderna, Pfizer) effective. Even if the breakthrough cases are 10x higher than known, the breakthroughs are still well below 1%. And only 1,400 vaccinated people have died from COVID (0.0007%). And AFAIK there is no report on what other health issues these people had that may have affected their ability to have a quality response to the vaccine or made them more vulnerable to the infection.

There is also no scientific evidence boosters are effective. There is only inference based on convoluted data.

My thought is if boosters (the same drugs as the first two doses) are effective in reducing breakthrough cases, they should be administered only to high risk patients in areas experiencing high COVID cases. Otherwise the vaccines should be going to less developed nations, particularly those with higher COVID rates.

As it is I have a problem with young people getting vaccinated in developed while in other countries with significant COVID numbers people with much higher risk factors are not.

The goal should be to save as many people as possible. Far too often in the pandemic that goal has been forgotten or not even recognized in the first place.

 

[Gregg2]

...

Honestly, this is one place I'm genuinely concerned being in Ontario. as an employer I want to mandate my staff have vaccines. Especially since we're Information Technology and have travel possibilities to 15 different branches. But again, I can't ask. I can't even say that I want them vaccinated. And technically my staff have zero obligation to legally tell us.

And yet, the very same people objecting to mandatory mask wearing, vaccinations, etc. are subject to myriad other government requirements that require certain behaviors. For example, if you want to drive a car, there are several things the government says you have to do. Or, do you want to go hunting or fishing? ...same thing, and there are plenty more examples of government telling citizens what to do. I guess the privacy aspect is what sets apart things relating to health, and people are unwilling to make exceptions for the greater good of their fellow humans.

 

[pshufd]

Our numbers are going up exponentially. I've seen this before.

Went to the gym early this morning. I was the only person with a mask on. There was also a classroom of children in an open area while I was leaving. There will be another 100+ kids there later today. I'm going to try and go to the gym before the kids arrive or just workout at home. The media is starting to report the number of kids in the hospitals and ICUs in the worst states and I don't want to be involved in that (either catching it from them or passing it on).

I think that people are very tired of masks, washing, social distancing, etc. Or maybe they're not watching local numbers like I am.

 

[yaxomoxay]

And yet, the very same people objecting to mandatory mask wearing, vaccinations, etc. are subject to myriad other government requirements that require certain behaviors. For example, if you want to drive a car, there are several things the government says you have to do. Or, do you want to go hunting or fishing? ...same thing, and there are plenty more examples of government telling citizens what to do. I guess the privacy aspect is what sets apart things relating to health, and people are unwilling to make exceptions for the greater good of their fellow humans.

Not really the same. Driving and hunting are seen as privileges, often using government property of some kind (roads; you don't need a license to drive in your own backyard racetrack!). Working, shopping for food, breathing, walking are not privileges but inalienable rights. That's the difference, in addition to the privacy element you mention.

 

[Mainsail]

Not really the same. Driving and hunting are seen as privileges, often using government property of some kind (roads; you don't need a license to drive in your own backyard racetrack!). Working, shopping for food, breathing, walking are not privileges but inalienable rights. That's the difference, in addition to the privacy element you mention.

There are hundreds of examples of government restrictions on behaviors that have nothing to do with licensed privileges. You can't walk across an intersection without following crosswalks and signage. In some cities, you can use a leaf blower. There are noise ordinances the restrict activity after 10pm in residential neighborhoods. In my state, you can't use your fireplace on certain days when the air quality is poor. During droughts, the state can restrict your use of water. None of these are licensed privileges.

 

[yaxomoxay]

There are hundreds of examples of government restrictions on behaviors that have nothing to do with licensed privileges. You can't walk across an intersection without following crosswalks and signage. In some cities, you can use a leaf blower. There are noise ordinances the restrict activity after 10pm in residential neighborhoods. In my state, you can't use your fireplace on certain days when the air quality is poor. During droughts, the state can restrict your use of water. None of these are licensed privileges.

You're mixing things. Your first post was about licensing, not about behavioral limitations. Your second post is about behavioral limitations.

In none of the examples above you have to provide information to the government, and in none of the above you have to submit evidence of "innocence". More importantly, the government can't intervene against you unless there is suspicion of a crime (be it murder, or a simple noise ordinance or a traffic violation). The limitations are indirect and very limited in the applicable circumstances.

Now, as for vaccines, the SCOTUS already decided that the State government has the right to impose vaccinations. I don't think there is much that no vaxxers can do to stop a State from that and to be honest I am fine with mandated vaccinations for 16+ yo (without medical reasons, although religious exemptions might cause some issues).

As for masks, I'm still wondering if the government (at any level) has the right to impose them on citizens within a privately owned space and in non-exigent circumstances (surgery etc.).

 

[Mainsail]

You're mixing things. Your first post was about licensing, not about behavioral limitations. Your second post is about behavioral limitations.

In none of the examples above you have to provide information to the government, and in none of the above you have to submit evidence of "innocence". More importantly, the government can't intervene against you unless there is suspicion of a crime (be it murder, or a simple noise ordinance or a traffic violation). The limitations are indirect and very limited in the applicable circumstances.

Now, as for vaccines, the SCOTUS already decided that the State government has the right to impose vaccinations. I don't think there is much that no vaxxers can do to stop a State from that and to be honest I am fine with mandated vaccinations for 16+ yo (without medical reasons, although religious exemptions might cause some issues).

As for masks, I'm still wondering if the government (at any level) has the right to impose them on citizens within a privately owned space and in non-exigent circumstances (surgery etc.).

In my school district, you can't register your kid in school without proof of vaccinations for measles, mumps, polio, etc..

If I want to make modifications to my home, I need to obtain permits and provide drawings and specs to local authorities that prove that the renovations are in compliance with local regulations. The burden of proof is on me to demonstrate that I am in compliance.

I think you are looking at a distinction without much of a difference as it relates to the numerous ways governments can and do limit our freedoms for the purpose of community safety and health.

 

[iOS Geek]

As for masks, I'm still wondering if the government (at any level) has the right to impose them on citizens within a privately owned space and in non-exigent circumstances (surgery etc.).

To add to this one, I'm wondering about schools. Our governor just announced a mask mandate for schools. Both public schools and private schools. I won't be surprised if a legal battle comes up over that one. Especially because he said that if any school violates the COVID mandates, he would pull funding from them as punishment. There is one private school in my area (a Catholic school). They receive zero funding from the state. How he's able to dictate what that private school does, I'm not so sure I understand where that authority is coming from. As for the threat to pull funding, to this school...that threat means nothing because there is no funding for the governor to pull from them.

 

[pshufd]

To add to this one, I'm wondering about schools. Our governor just announced a mask mandate for schools. Both public schools and private schools. I won't be surprised if a legal battle comes up over that one. Especially because he said that if any school violates the COVID mandates, he would pull funding from them as punishment. There is one private school in my area (a Catholic school). They receive zero funding from the state. How he's able to dictate what that private school does, I'm not so sure I understand where that authority is coming from. As for the threat to pull funding, to this school...that threat means nothing because there is no funding for the governor to pull from them.

Pierce vs Society of Sisters.

 

[yaxomoxay]

In my school district, you can't register your kid in school without proof of vaccinations for measles, mumps, polio, etc..

As it should be. But in many states, you can homeschool. Which makes vaccinations not a blanked mandate even for school aged kids.

If I want to make modifications to my home, I need to obtain permits and provide drawings and specs to local authorities that prove that the renovations are in compliance with local regulations. The burden of proof is on me to demonstrate that I am in compliance.

As it should be. But I'd argue that building/modifying a home is not exactly a common daily life-experience like going at the park or at the restaurant. Building/modifying a home also makes a permanent modification over government property (Gov't owns the land) which makes the government an interested party.

I think you are looking at a distinction without much of a difference as it relates to the numerous ways governments can and do limit our freedoms for the purpose of community safety and health.

It is very important - at least in my opinion - to look at those differences. The government can and will limit our freedoms. It's part of their job. However, this power is and should be very limited. For a couple of centuries we always stated that clothing of any kind is a first amendment right for example (I am not arguing that masks infringe on this right; I do not know, but it's a consideration to take into account).