Craig Federighi Talks Bringing iOS Apps to macOS, Reiterates No Plans for Touchscreen Macs

[Piggie]

Didn't they say no plans for stupidly big mobile phones, and made a video showing how their small screen was the RIGHT size?

 

[needsomecoffee]

or you can take a 15 minute break. do some pullups or something.

Sure, I can effectively minimize the risk of RSI by occasionally using the OPTION of touching the screen thereby reducing my productivity a tiny percentage, --OR-- I can be forced to take a 15 minute break with 0% productivity. Like Craig, you MUST ENFORCE only one choice on me. If Apple gave me the OPTION of buying and using a touch screen, you likely would have the OPTION of either not buying the TS, or not using it if you did buy it. Not at all against 15 minute breaks for non-RSI health reasons. However, Apple and you deciding the its it BEST that I not have the OPTION of occasionally reaching for the screen while coding to select a word or line thereby running at 95% productivity rather than 0% for 15 minutes again falls into the category of hubris (or fanboi-ism in your case). Options are good imho.

 

[subjonas]

I don’t care about touchscreen macs either, but I also don’t get the fatigue argument. The iPad with a keyboard has the same ergonomics. And that LEGO AR demo looked way more fatiguing.

You don't get the argument, or you don't get the double standard? The argument is solid, but I agree the double standard is confusing their message. I also agree that I would never want to hold up an ipad the way they were in the Lego demo for more than a moment.

 

[FelixDerKater]

Doubling down on the keyboard and mouse.

 

[subjonas]

Fixed:

"We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a gimmicky touchbar is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," he said.

Also, iOS apps on a non-touchscreen Mac = usability nightmare.

Someone is being disingenuous here.

I don't have a TB but I would think if I don't need to lift my arm to use function keys, I wouldn't need to lift my arm to use the TB since they're in the same exact place.

And I don't think they intend ported iOS apps to retain their touch UI, they need to be translated to a cursor UI.

 

[convergent]

Touch screen on a Mac is useless. I applaud Apple for separating the iPad from the Mac in terms of the user interface. The Mac should be more desktop focused and personally, I don’t want to reach across the keyboard to touch the display only to see my own fingerprints. The iPad serves a totally different purpose in terms of portability and interaction.

For The record, I have tried the whole convertible laptop/tablet function, and I absolutely did not like it and I found that I like the separation.

I disagree. Everyone's needs are different. Apple has decided for its customers that there must be separation, and that's why I stopped being a customer. Other companies are a bit more open to supporting customer's needs. That is probably why the hybrid laptop category is the only segment that is growing.

One of the first things I did when I got my Windows laptop with pen was sign a work document. It was cool and quite liberating to sign right on the document and send it off.

It's also awesome to be able to draw on it and do quick mockups. Onenote will even get my crummy handwriting right most of the time.

I hate to say it but it sure feels like MS is honing in on how people want to interact with their devices in a way Apple has forgotten how to do.

Agree. The Surface Pro really lets you bring it all together into one device and having used it for a year now, it would be quite annoying to go back to Apple's approach of having two devices, two operating systems, double the peripherals and dongles, etc.

 

[44267547]

I disagree. Everyone's needs are different. Apple has decided for its customers that there must be separation, and that's why I stopped being a customer. Other companies are a bit more open to supporting customer's needs. That is probably why the hybrid laptop category is the only segment that is growing.

That’s an excellent decision, because now you made the necessary move realizing the Apple will _not_ conform to your preferences, which they basically don’t agree that a touchscreen laptop should exist, which I fully support. Sometimes I think the notion that Apple should appease to every customer what they want is absolutely asinine and borderline ridiculous, but I’m glad you can find other manufactures they can fit your needs, and they can’t make everyone pleased with their decisions.

 

[subjonas]

While mouse support may be coming in iOS 13, it’ll still be the same setup as a touchscreen Mac. If anything, it’s less ergonomic since the screen angle cannot be adjusted.

Bringing mouse support to iOS would really make their no-touch Mac stance non-sensical. But I'm pretty sure mouse support is never coming to iOS. Apple already confused their message enough allowing keyboard support, but that was because they were backed into a corner. Most people can't get any work done without a physical keyboard.

 

[willgreene99]

I honestly applaud Apple for doing the correct approach by keeping MacOS / iOS separate while providing incentive for developers to port their iOS apps over to the Mac.

Just wish it didn't have to come at the expense of deprecating OpenGL and casting out a lot of capable older hardware.

I am still on the fence about this. I can't agree that it is the correct approach as I can see two paths. Either the developer will not spend any time on the port and bring the i-OS version over 'as is' since I don't see them getting paid for this port. The result will be a sub-par experience for the user who will likely delete it. Or the developer will spend time on bringing over a well crafted port and make it an ad-free upgrade to which Apple would benefit by the 30% margin they charge. But I do wonder why would a developer do that instead of just creating the app for Mac-OS and take advantage of the better hardware components which would then defeat the purpose of porting the i-OS version in the first place. What incentive would a developer have to do this?

I'm pretty excited about this because it means more apps for the Mac. But will the reverse be true? Could we get more professional apps on the iPad because of this system? If so, this could solve a lot of problems for Mac and iPad users—especially those of us who like to jump between using both for design, photography, development, drawing, etc.

A risk is the Mac being flooded with one horse iOS apps which won't take advantage of the extra power a laptop/desktop brings. Developers writing iOS apps for Mac, instead of "real" native apps.

The apps might not be what we would like for them to be. Where is the incentive for the developer to do this? The Mac-OS store is not as profitable as the i-OS store. And would Apple or Mac users cannibalize the Mac-OS versions of the apps if the i-OS versions are free to install and are 'good enough' to run? In this scenario the developer just lost another revenue stream and now must recoup those development cost from the i-OS version possibly adding a price hike.

It remains to be seen how this is handled and that will determine how the developers react to the options they have.

 

[convergent]

That’s an excellent decision, because now you made the necessary move realizing the Apple will _not_ conform to your preferences, which they basically don’t agree that a touchscreen laptop should exist, which I fully support. Sometimes I think the notion that Apple should appease to every customer what they want is absolutely asinine and borderline ridiculous, but I’m glad you can find other manufactures they can fit your needs, and they can’t make everyone please with their decisions.

Yep, if you go with Apple, you conform to Apple's decisions on what you can have and not have. If you go with other companies, you get to have your own choice. I've worked for several tech companies and for the most part the customer has always been a priority. Apple has a different approach. And its not just related to touch screen. You get what they think you should get, and more and more they build barriers to a heterogeneous world where you can pick and choose.
[doublepost=1528230825][/doublepost]

I am still on the fence about this. I can't agree that it is the correct approach as I can see two paths. Either the developer will not spend any time on the port and bring the i-OS version over 'as is' since I don't see them getting paid for this port. The result will be a sub-par experience for the user who will likely delete it. Or the developer will spend time on bringing over a well crafted port and make it an ad-free upgrade to which Apple would benefit by the 30% margin they charge. But I do wonder why would a developer do that instead of just creating the app for Mac-OS and take advantage of the better hardware components which would then defeat the purpose of porting the i-OS version in the first place. What incentive would a developer have to do this?

The incentive is that Apple customers will buy twice as much software to go with their two devices instead of one.
[doublepost=1528231017][/doublepost]

Bringing mouse support to iOS would really make their no-touch Mac stance non-sensical. But I'm pretty sure mouse support is never coming to iOS. Apple already confused their message enough allowing keyboard support, but that was because they were backed into a corner. Most people can't get any work done without a physical keyboard.

The problem when you become dogmatic about something is that you end up taking non-sensical stances. There are lots of people that can get buy with iOS for what they do. My wife is one of them... she lives on her iPad for everything. She never uses a computer. For a vast population of information workers, you can not be effective on an iPad. I would love to see someone try to show me how they can be more productive on an iPad than I can with a mouse an external 4K display doing complex work in Excel.

 

[niun]

Apple has decided for its customers that there must be separation, and that's why I stopped being a customer.

Ditto.. It didn't stop there though. Once I stopped using a Mac, my iPhone became pointless which meant a move over to android. It also meant ditching all of the Apple software and cloud storage etc...

I don't think I'm alone..

 

[LinusR]

Fixed:

"We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a gimmicky touchbar is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," he said.

YMMV, but I'Ve found the toolbar incredibly useful and intuitive. Wouldn't call it gimmicky at all (unless you have no use for it, but then why bother labelling it?).

Also, iOS apps on a non-touchscreen Mac = usability nightmare.

Only if you do it wrong. I suppose we agree that nobody assumes they'll simply run iOS apps on the Mac, omit the touch-screen specific gestures and replace everything by mouse clicks. There are ways of translating UI from one OS to another in a unified manner that utilises the input options of the different devices respectively. In a best case scenario, this mapping is a bijection.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Clearly hasn't seen 2-in-1 laptops or the surface book designs? They manage to solve all 'ergonomic issues'. Have you seen the new Asus with a touchscreen pad? They all leave your touch bar effort in the dust. Talking about ergonomics - how are your keyboard lawsuits going?

I had a Surface at one point and I can assure you that it doesn't solve "ergonomic issues". It's not a not very good computer and a crap tablet. I actually think an iOS with more features is the way to go.

 

[TimUSCA]

Good. I've got two friends who own touch screen windows laptops (XPS 13 and HP some model I don't remember). They both never use it and when you do use it, it leaves dirty finger prints and makes the screen wobble. It's useless on a laptop. Leave it for tablets and phones.

My wife was issued a Dell with a touchscreen from work. I saw her using the touch screen a good bit, and I asked her why. She said it made it so much easier to scroll on websites by dragging the scroll bar. I asked why she didn't just use the two-finger scroll on the trackpad that's similar to how her MacBook works, and her response was that the trackpad on the Dell sucks and she hates using it. And she admitted that if the Dell had a trackpad as nice as her MacBook's, she'd never use the touchscreen at all because it's awkward and she's constantly wiping down the screen.

So basically, touchscreen is only useful on Windows laptops because it's there to fix garbage implementations of existing features. It's a band-aid, and not a good one at that.

 

[niun]

So basically, touchscreen is only useful on those specific Dell laptops because it's there to fix garbage implementations of existing features. It's a band-aid, and not a good one at that.

Fixed

 

[Appleaker]

Bringing mouse support to iOS would really make their no-touch Mac stance non-sensical. But I'm pretty sure mouse support is never coming to iOS. Apple already confused their message enough allowing keyboard support, but that was because they were backed into a corner. Most people can't get any work done without a physical keyboard.

The keyboard is the main thing that makes their no-touch Mac stance non-sensical (although there are plenty of other reasons why they have that view), since a trackpad or mouse is usually at the side of the device, therefore not adding to the poor experience of reaching over to nagivate the UI. In fact it could be seen as making their stance make more sense, since currently you are forced to reach up and touch the screen when using the Smart Keyboard.
Due to the situation with porting iOS apps to macOS, mouse support is more likely than before (but in general, still not that likely) but we are probably not going to see it next year, if they do it, it may be in a few years time.

 

[Vjosullivan]

My dad otoh cannot stop. Whenever he uses his retina MBP after using an iPad he immediately tries to scroll on the screen lol.

That would suggest that many users would find a touch screen on a Mac to be entirely logical and intuitive.

 

[MartiNZ]

Fixed

Indeed, the Latitude trackpads are pretty bad, but Inspirons at least are excellent, and I use both the trackpad and the touchscreen.

It is concerning to see in this thread people -still- giving Apple credit for making their decisions for them. The epitome of what Apple originally wanted NOT to be. The hammer into the screen that was running their lives, not the company on the screen running them!

Options are excellent. There is no downside to putting in a touch screen. Just don't use it if you don't want to use it. The argument that we are all better off without it is very Outer Limits. Ironic that there is still an Option key on Apple's keyboard.

 

[niun]

It is concerning to see in this thread people -still- giving Apple credit for making their decisions for them.

What really bothers me is the complete lack of faith in Apple!
The one company that looks at what the competition does and then does it better than anyone else, ironing out all of the issues in the process..

To say that Apple (if they'd not backed themselves into this corner) couldn't make THE BEST touch screen Mac on the planet is just odd...

If the iMac was anything like the Surface Studio the creatives out there would be tearing bank vaults apart to throw cash at Apple (including myself).

 

[macduke]

Yep, if you go with Apple, you conform to Apple's decisions on what you can have and not have. If you go with other companies, you get to have your own choice. I've worked for several tech companies and for the most part the customer has always been a priority. Apple has a different approach. And its not just related to touch screen. You get what they think you should get, and more and more they build barriers to a heterogeneous world where you can pick and choose.

It's all up to the market. Apple makes design decisions for the customer because Apple has experience working with and designing computer systems and think their way is the best way forward. Either you agree or disagree. A lot of people agree because they don't like tinkering around with half-baked solutions. Others agree because they like to do a bunch of in-depth customization and have spare time to dink around with fixing all the issues that may arise. It's a personal preference and a debate that goes back decades.

 

[VictorTango777]

I get your point here, which is fair, but I just don't think Apple would see a huge benefit in doing so. I would imagine most use a touchscreen laptop/desktop for drawing, you can do that on an iPad. Swiping through pictures, scrolling, all are better with a track pad. With macOS, they aren't going to rewrite the OS to be touch friendly. For them, keeping them separate creates the best option for the majority of users. With the iPad keyboard (which I use daily), it's definitely a nice to have, but is only used when sitting down to type. I am really not doing a whole lot of screen touching when I am typing and use keyboard shortcuts instead. Lastly, Windows as a tablet is pretty crappy, which kind of goes back to the original point - better to keep them separate and be really good at what they are intended to do. Just my opinion and I am sure there are use cases out there where 2 in 1's work for people.

Let's stop trying to move the goal posts, ok? Craig, Phil and several posters on this forum keep arguing about how terrible it is, having to reach across the air to touch a screen. Other companies make adjustable touch screens which render this argument moot. But Craig, Phil and several posters on this forum continue making that same argument anyway. Why?

 

[StellarVixen]

I cannot believe what am I reading here myself, people are actually comparing touchscreen laptops and desktops with TouchBar.

TouchBar stands in the place of function keys. It didn't do anything else, except replace physical keys with the touch ones. If TouchBar is not ergonomic, the function keys aren't either.

TouchBar is nowhere near of an ergonomic nightmare such as touchscreen desktops/laptops are. OMG, not even close, people I do understand all of the Apple criticism, but pick valid points to argue for/against, please. Otherwise, this doesn't even make sense.

LOL, again.

 

[HowardEv]

How about a Mac mini with a battery, and a wireless screen keyboard?
I’m worried the new MacMini is going to have a power cord and that’d be really stupid.

 

[jonblatho]

Well so far the testing is horrible. I keep getting a UIKitSystem Quit Unexpectedly error whenever I try to open one of those apps. Anyone else getting this?

It’s almost like it’s a beta or something.

 

[Scottsoapbox]

Good. I've got two friends who own touch screen windows laptops (XPS 13 and HP some model I don't remember). They both never use it and when you do use it, it leaves dirty finger prints and makes the screen wobble. It's useless on a laptop. Leave it for tablets and phones.

How would you know that it leaves fingerprints if they *never* use it?

I have a surface and use the touch screen all the time.

Don't have a problem with fingerprints on either the surface or my iPad that trained me to touch big screens.