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Maybe I just don't understand politics, but it's amazing how many fellow leftists are against the idea of government intervention that encourages manufacturing jobs in a country with better wages and worker rights.

It's amazing how many righties are totally cool with the gov't inhibiting the free market by imposing tariffs. Are we all just inconsistent bastards?

I've been saying this since the 2016 primaries. Trump is not a conservative. He only barely fits in the Republican party and was formerly a Democrat. He's nominally a populist. Some of his policies are more at home on the left. Unfortunately for someone who has policies that cross party lines he isn't centrist or uniting at all, the result is just that there's something for everyone to hate.
 
Why not sell it as a kit (optional) ??

Most of us can handle a simple screw driver if it saves 2K in manufacturing costs..

The problem with this is that most of us that can handle a screwdriver are dying off of old age. Most youngsters don't have any desire to even know what a screwdriver is, let alone know how to use it. They are part of the post-work cohort.
 
The ideal scenario would be a factory town, run entirely by FoxConn (or whoever), and as part of your pay you'd receive a place to live and various amenities. Keeping all that overhead in-house and allowing that to offset direct payroll reduces cost significantly.

We had those; and it was a boon for companies and a determent to workers. They risked losing their house if they spoke up, paid inflated prices for goods a company stores, and got paid less. They often wound up in debt to the company so they couldn't leave. Not all were like that, but I doubt we should go back to them.
 
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There is a reason Apple is the wealthiest company in the world...

I work for a company that manufactures entirely in the US. We are probably the 4th largest market share of the big 6 players. All other companies manufacture outside of the US.

They are still able to sell cheaper than we are. The US does not have the training or resources to manufacture commercial components.

Those days are long gone.

People need to accept this and educate people into roles where this country can be successful and be the best in the world.

Do what you’re good at now, not try to rekindle some long lost romance on something you used to be good at and now someone is kicking your ass at. It’s like an athlete who is past their prime, retire and good into broadcasting.

Some of us see it as purely a long-term national security issue?

Why would we want just about everything we depend on for modern life, made in a country that considers us an enemy? Hell, why would we want everything made in just one location that was friendly? Natural disasters, terrorism, etc. could just as easily do irreparable harm to anyone's manufacturing capacity.

In every other aspect of tech life, we embrace redundancy? Backup batteries, power supplies, on and off site data backups...etc. Why not in the manufacturing of these very items? It's an obnoxious form of bean-counter corner cutting. It defies reason.

I'm not saying everything needs to be made domestically, just that it would be nice if we maintained the ability ... to have options? I believe Jobs once said, "We like to have options". If every tech CEO that pearl clutched every time this subject came up, saying that we just don't have the qualified work force, chose to invest even a little in educating a future workforce, to have those options, it would be refreshing.

Really can't understand how anyone would argue against that.
 
Apple is the wealthiest company on this planet, things can happen if they want to do it.

This post really demonstrates ignorance of the supply chain. Electronics are manufactured in China and the surrounding region because that’s where all the third party suppliers are. Apple isn’t going to recreate a trillion dollar network of third party suppliers in the United States.

It’s like saying: start a seafood restaurant in the Sahara desert. Not only would you have to import all the fish, you’d have to create manufacturers for plates, cups, cutlery, napkins, salt, a farm for the ingredients, you’d need to mine your own natural gas to run your stove... and so on. You’re saying: JUST OPERATE A RESTAURANT IN THE SAHARA! JUST DO IT! I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE DETAILS. But the details are important. You might be able to imagine how expensive it would get to operate that restaurant. Nobody could afford to eat there.

Apple doesn’t make iPhones and Macs in a vacuum. There are dozens of individual suppliers who have their own suppliers who may also have their own suppliers. That infrastructure doesn’t exist in the United States. Recreating it isn’t feasible and neither is it Apple’s job to do it. If Trump wants the United States to rival China in manufacturing, then he should create the policies and investments needed to build that industry in the US. But he’s not sophisticated enough to even understand that, let alone implement it.
 
The ideal scenario would be a factory town

Factory towns are absolutely horrendous for job security, stability of economy and long term sustainability.

The entirety of the town is at the behest of a single industry. if that industry dries up, the town is utterly screwed. The prospects become Move, or live in squalor on the handout of the government. This is essentially why Detroit turned into a ghots town when the US automotive industry packed up and went elsewhere. Why Coal miners are so desperate for Coal to come back.

What is best for a town / country is promoting business so that healthy competition comes in and brings with it sustainable jobs via competition and diversity of employment. That's why cities work generally pretty well for employment. Lots of employers, Lots of employees, all vying and competing with eachother. If a few go under? More tend to pop up in their place to swallow up the employees.

when a single business town has that business go under, it's never ends well.
 
Evan as a staunch Trump critic, even I don’t see anything wrong with that policy. This is the law and it should apply to all companies equally.

As for the spirit of the law, well that another question...

But it doesn't. Some get special treatment, others such as farmers get paid off, and small companies such as the nail manufacturer whose raw materials went up 25% and now no longer can compete with cheaper nails from Mexico get shafted.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nail...nent-tariffs-trump_n_5b331858e4b0b5e692f26a0e

Even Harley is moving more production overseas becasue of tariffs and retaliation for US tariffs, although in fairness they have been manufacturing overses for a while. The tarfiffs just made moving more imperative.
 
As much as I dislike Trump, lets take the political parties out of this.

American Companies should worry about the American people. Outsourcing is not them acting in good conscious of this country, so yes these companies should be penalized.

Yep, if India and China can say. "Don't manufacture here, can't sell here", then I think it is only appropriate that the US makes a very similar statement.
 
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This post really demonstrates ignorance of the supply chain. Electronics are manufactured in China and the surrounding region because that’s where all the third party suppliers are. Apple isn’t going to recreate a trillion dollar network of third party suppliers in the United States.

It’s like saying: start a seafood restaurant in the Sahara desert. Not only would you have to import all the fish, you’d have to create manufacturers for plates, cups, cutlery, napkins, salt, a farm for the ingredients, you’d need to mine your own natural gas to run your stove... and so on. You’re saying: JUST OPERATE A RESTAURANT IN THE SAHARA! JUST DO IT! I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE DETAILS. But the details are important. You might be able to imagine how expensive it would get to operate that restaurant. Nobody could afford to eat there.

Apple doesn’t make iPhones and Macs in a vacuum. There are dozens of individual suppliers who have their own suppliers who may also have their own suppliers. That infrastructure doesn’t exist in the United States. Recreating it isn’t feasible and neither is it Apple’s job to do it. If Trump wants the United States to rival China in manufacturing, then he should create the policies and investments needed to build that industry in the US. But he’s not sophisticated enough to even understand that, let alone implement it.

What is the difference between shipping individual parts from China to USA and shipping a fully assembled mac pro from China to USA?
 
But the "infrastructure" to build the previous model was? Bullsh*t.
The previous model was built in a factory heavily driven by automation, a feat only possible because of the relatively low volumes needed, and many of its components still came from East Asia including China. Some of the components for computers from Apple’s suppliers simply are not made in the United States and cannot be made here in the short term.

That’s because, even for the cylindrical Mac Pro, Apple had to import some components from other countries. The Mac Pro components, including components assembled in the U.S., may themselves have involved importing components from outside the U.S. Apple’s supply chain is incredibly complex, and even with all the money Apple has in the bank, they can’t just up and move other companies’ factories.

We’ll most likely never see a mass-market computer sold again that doesn’t have at least one component that was manufactured in East Asia. If we do, it’ll likely have automation at every single step such that substantial human labor expense isn’t needed. It’s a harsh reality, but these “jobs” are never coming back to the United States. Ever.
 
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Transferring jobs overseas was part of a long-term strategy to ensure the stability of our allies. The cliff-notes version of the idea is that exporting jobs to other countries will make their populations rich, which will provide domestic stability as well as buy-in into the world order.

It worked, for the most part, especially since the Communists were actively trying to destabilize the West. It also was able to hide inside the tenets of liberal economics, which provided sort of ideological cover for the policy.

Today, that policy is probably no longer needed for that particular reason and the idea behind it is slowly being eroded away. However, exporting jobs does lead to a larger consumer base in the destination country, which should create markets for our products. That needs to be a two-way street eventually, which is why China and the US are at loggerheads; China wants to reap the benefits of free trade without allowing others to benefit by allowing access to large chunks of China's internal market.

Even Japan eventually opened its markets up. China's problem is that it needs to figure out how to exercise control over non-Chinese actors.
 
King Donny has spoken! A price hike is coming, I doubt that Apple will cut its margins. However, if the demand is low they just might.

PS Long love the king, u r still da best, Donny!
 
The issue I have with that is he is playing to the desires of many workers to have better, traditional blue collar jobs when that isn't going to happen. US manufacturing is more and more high tech with global supply lines. New factories will have a few technicians overseeing a largely automated line rather than hundreds of workers building things. Even currently labor intensive US manufacturing, such as carpeting, is going that route; and the disruption ion communities that rely on those jobs will be as great as it was for car towns.

It's the hypocrisy of it all that bothers me, especially since you're playing with people's lives and hopes.

They said that back in the 80’s when robots were taking over assembly lines. A funny thing happened, people started learning more skills and got better jobs at higher pay. That led to the 90’s tech boom. I was a technical recruiter at the time. I used to get these guys jobs, and there were more jobs than there were people to fill them. Then along came NAFTA and the outsourcing boom kicking in full steam....all these jobs went out of the country, and a not so funny thing happened to the job market after that.
 
What is the difference between shipping individual parts from China to USA and shipping a fully assembled mac pro from China to USA?

Over here it'll cost minimum of 11(ish) / hr + benefits and ensuring quality of living and good work conditions

over there it costs $1/hr and if a few workers throw themselves off the roof because they're treated like slaves, who cares! (/s)

the only difference is the corporations maximization of profit trumps employee rights and worker safety.
 
I've been saying this since the 2016 primaries. Trump is not a conservative. He only barely fits in the Republican party and was formerly a Democrat. He's nominally a populist. Some of his policies are more at home on the left. Unfortunately for someone who has policies that cross party lines he isn't centrist or uniting at all, the result is just that there's something for everyone to hate.
And everything Trump is doing re: judges, abortion etc. isn’t because he really believes it. It’s transactional. He knows he can’t win without evangelical conservatives and the only way he gets them is to promise pro-life judges and being very pro-Israel.
 
I'm personally opposed to tariffs in general as economic policy (allowing that there might be specific times that they can be useful), but that's irrelevant. That's the current policy, right or wrong, and there's no reason Apple should get exemptions others don't.

Ok, don't like the tariffs? Work to get them changed or removed. But company-specific exemptions to laws and regulations are worse policy than tariffs are.
 
Never sided before with Trump in my life but he's right here. Everyone saying "oh, but the factories don't exist!" - if only Apple had a massive war chest of cash they could use?

Apple aren't special.
 
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That's a valid observation.

Another Observation: A Republican President trying to incentivize American companies to hire locally and generate working-class jobs (something the dems should be cheering?). It seems that since the 90s(at least) both parties catered to non-working-class concerns.

"Catering to non-working-class concerns" tends to be the net effect, even when they claim to be catering to working-class concerns. Employers get the big tax incentives and sometimes cash grants. Prices to consumers may hold steady (do they ever drop?), while working class wages stagnate or fall. When things trickle down, most of the gains stay at the top.

It's a game both parties play. The thing is, "good for jobs" often doesn't result in as many jobs as promised. Businesses have to do what's best in their own self-interest. If automation/mechanization is cheaper, it must be done. If skilled labor can be eliminated in favor of cheaper semi-skilled labor, it must be done. If the economy is soft, layoffs.

When Southern states (with very Republican leadership) dangled tax breaks to automakers and other Northern industries, the jobs didn't move from Japan, they moved from elsewhere in the US. Those relocated jobs typically paid lower wages than had been paid up North (Republican-passed right-to-work laws helped with that), in factories that were generally more automated than those they replaced. While that brought growth to those states, it meant shrinkage elsewhere in these so-called united states.

Today, the "business is better" mantra also leads to outsourcing of government jobs. Almost invariably, the result is lower wages and fewer jobs. Why? The fastest path to business "efficiency" is by reducing labor costs - "management" of wage and benefit costs, and increased automation. If business is going to underbid government's current cost and still earn a profit, how else can it be done? This is not rocket science.

So we have a President who speaks to the white working class in a voice that sounds like theirs, but what has the net effect been? Have jobs actually been saved, or have they just been shuffled from one town to another? Have wages risen? No. When wages stagnate in the face of record-low unemployment, there's something else going on. If employees and prospective employees felt they could demand better wages and jobs, they would. Employers are better than ever before at keeping employees and prospective employees on the defensive. Though unemployment among those actively seeking work ls very low, there's an underlying suspicion that structural unemployment is very high. Fear of joining the structurally unemployed contributes to wage stagnation (as does the fear that the next job will pay worse than the current job). Do we blame that structural unemployment entirely on the unemployed (sloth, lack of education, etc.), or do society and business as a whole bear some (or most) of the responsibility?

The only thing that will mitigate the "jobs" problem is true income redistribution. Higher wages in the hands of the 90%. Government spending on "wasteful" projects like carbon sequestration, infrastructure, parks, preventive healthcare, mental health, daycare centers, affordable housing... raise the quality of life for all. Feelings of well-being and security stimulate consumer spending, which flows right back to big business. The trick is that big business and investors can't keep it all, they need to recycle a larger proportion back into the economy in ways that aid the entire population, not just the ownership class. It doesn't matter whether the richest of the rich have $100 billion or $10 billion. Either way they and their descendants can't spend it all.

There's nothing wrong with income redistribution - it's always just a matter of which direction the money is flowing. We've had a long stretch where it has been flowing upward. It needs to flow in the other direction for a while. If we were truly wise (which we are not), we'd find that delicate balance point where everyone is comfortable.
 
As long as they won’t raise the price in other countries, who cares. Start selling the MP for a higher price in the US, then people will just buy it in Canada or somewhere else. Perfect solution. Apple should not eat up the costs, just pass it on to the buyers.
 
They said that back in the 80’s when robots were taking over assembly lines. A funny thing happened, people started learning more skills and got better jobs at higher pay. That led to the 90’s tech boom. I was a technical recruiter at the time. I used to get these guys jobs, and there were more jobs than there were people to fill them.

That is the crux of the problem, it's not there isn't enough people is that the needed skills are in short supply; and many who lost jobs simply lack those skills. The notion that you can magically retrain a factory worker to be a tech worker is a chimera. Some may develop the skills, but many won't and to promise them the good old jobs are coming back is political pandering at its best.

I worked with some economic development folks and one of their biggest challenges was trying to convince people if a factory comes back it'll be high tech and not employee hundreds of workers like before.
 
Trump is a clown.

Having said that -- good. Keep the jobs in America. Pay American wages. Operate under American labor / safety laws. Abide by American environmental regulations.

....environmental regulations....under this administration?!? Laughable.
 
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Then build it. I will be happy to pay the premium. I already do for using apple products in the first place.

What, for all of apple's hardware? Economically infeasible. The supply chain is where it is for a lot of reasons. We don't have the workforce -- and the labor laws for working the miracles FoxConn does sometimes, sweeping in ten thousand workers overnight to redo something or speed something up-- and we can't handle the environmental issues, and most of all American and other countries' consumers will not choose to pay to "fix that" and move it all to the states. Not going to happen.

Anyway Trump is being Trump and the tariffs are amusing him because they hit China and Tim Cook both in his mind. ooh look at what I did with the mac pro, I can make them both dance at my command, I am host of the best reality TV show ever imagined.

Protectionism as Trump's using it is the stuff of trade wars and it's self harmful. He thinks he's using tariffs as negotiating tactics. The global economy gets in an uproar because it needs to know today how much it's going to cost to buy this and that next month because just-in-time inventory etc.

Jerk companies and countries around like that long enough (and it's looking long enough) and they start figuring hey ya know who needs this let's just build this widget in China and sell it in Chile and Paraguay, just leave the states out of it, their consumers are almost broke anyway and the country's hard pressed to find enough contestants for a decent Lego™ construction contest. I'm exaggerating a wee bit but check back in a couple years if we re-elect this moron and he keeps appointing incompetents to staff up his administration.

Too bad for the free traders of the GOP that protectionism isn't an impeachable offense, or the turnip would be gone already. They must be pulling their hair out by now.
 
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And no one will be able to afford the products except the super rich

You can't have it both ways. If you want companies to pay people a decent wage, give benefits to full time staff, keep the environment at least somewhat clean, etc., it will cost them more to operate. To demand all of those things and then expect sweatshop-level prices is extremely naive and unrealistic.
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....environmental regulations....under this administration?!? Laughable.

Environmental regulations are a nightmare of bureaucracy and paperwork just for reporting, not to mention the cost to comply, and yes, that is all still true under Trump.
 
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If Apple designed it, why didn’t they get it manufactured in the USA?
Because having specialized parts build from scratch by companies that don’t have the tools or experience creates quality and can increase cost by a factor of 5. The difference between green lighting a product or cancellation
 
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