Dutch Antitrust Probe Targets Contactless Payments Like Apple Pay

[hot-gril]

Then the market will fix itself. Apple can open up the NFC and if there's no market no one will use the third party apps and the banks will all shut their own apps down. Who knows if there's a market for it?

The market has already fixed itself. Most people use Android devices, which provide these kinds of freedoms to developers and users. Some prefer Apple devices for other reasons. It got this way by Apple, Google, and others just doing what they want with their own platforms.

 

[cupcakes2000]

"They can put NFC right in their credit card....which some have done. Apple is locked out. I bet I cannot use Apple Pay on their credit card."

The original statement. Wondering why I can't use Apple Pay directly on my card. Thus needing an Apple chip to be placed in the card.

That was not what I was replying to.

‘ A credit card is a piece of plastic it is not a digital technology. What you are suggesting is that I send my Capital One credit card into Apple headquarters and they somehow cut a hole in my card and put an Apple Pay chip in it. Of course you can't add anything to a plastic credit card. Apple Pay on the other hand is a digital system that anyone can add to unless Apple locks it down digitally.’

 

[ozzymo]

This would be like forcing Walmart to support Apple Pay. No way.

You can pay at Walmart a million different ways. Why should Walmart allow Apple Pay when Apple will not allow Walmart NFC Pay on the iPhone? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Apple wants their cake and eat it too. They want Apple Pay allowed in all stores and throw their considerable weight around to get that accomplished but they do not want any other NFC apps on the iPhone. Luckily Walmart is big enough that they can push back and have so far.

 

[ozzymo]

The market has already fixed itself. Most people use Android devices, which provide these kinds of freedoms to developers and users. Some prefer Apple devices for other reasons. It got this way by Apple, Google, and others just doing what they want with their own platforms.

We have no clue if there is a market for third party NFC apps on the iPhone. Apple has never allowed it. And just as some people prefer Android and Samsung devices, some people might prefer a third party NFC app on their iPhone.

 

[cupcakes2000]

All you guys are hilarious- like banks are the people that have the interest of anyone but themselves in mind 😂😂

 

[The_Gream]

Not sure if the finger should be pointed at the standard short sighted governments, the greedy banks or the lack of intelligence of the consumer.
Apple Pay as a system doesn't charge the user or the merchant a thing (Support for merchant side linked below).

About Apple Pay for merchants

Apple Pay gives your customers an easy, secure, and private way to pay in stores, within apps, on the web, and in Business Chat.

support.apple.com

Apple Pay as a system still has to use the payment processor at the store - generally if the purchase is being made via a non contactless (Not Apple Pay, Google or Samsung) on a Visa or MasterCard the cost to the merchant is ~3.5%. Visa and MasterCard reduced this rate to ~2.5% years back for contactless payment apps because of the reduction of fraud. Now, I haven't found the support doc for it yet, but as far as I remember from reading, Apple charges someone (maybe the bank) 10 cents per 100 dollars.

If the issue is on the government being short sighted - it's because they are attacking the issue from only one side again or want more control or more money.
If the issue is greedy banks - they are actually making more money now, because of the reduction in fraud.
If the issue is the consumer - its because

Now, do I feel that their is an Anti-trust issue here? No. Apple, as everyone should know by now, is a closed eco-system. Android is more open, but how open it is, is left to the company that is putting it on their product (Amazon, Samsung, LG etc). The consumer, merchant and financial groups have options.

Now, here's a question: Why are people/companies/etc making complaints about something that they empowered to happen?
If Apple and their services are such a big issue, why would the banks support them? The banks as a collective industry could have put an end to the closed Apple Pay system before it ever started, but they didn't!!! Anyone remember the other contactless systems being looked at back when Apple Pay was coming out (in the USA) ? Anyone remember how many banks supported cards with the Tap feature? Anyone remember how bad the payment method was from store to store when it came to making a purchase (still is a mess, but that's more of a UX/UI issue)?
For years these companies argued about the best way to move forward, and then Apple, Google and Samsung stepped up and created systems that worked for the consumer and they have controlled those systems for years. All this Anti-trust thing is, is the governments and financial groups trying to save face after years of fumbling the ball, and they still have no clear picture.

(sorry for the ramble. This topic just pushes my buttons, as I had to deal with an IT department for years that insisted that Apple Pay cost the company more per transaction, than other contactless payment systems)

 

[FCX]

But why would you be forced to use some ***** app? No one is saying open up NFC and shut down Apple Pay. They're saying open up NFC and allow more apps along with Apple Pay. Then let the consumer choose what they want to use.

You missed my second point earlier. Apple Pay doesn't allow merchants to track your purchases, build a dossier, and sell that information to anyone that wants it... which is why I prefer it. Why would merchants enable Apple Pay at their terminals if there were other 'wallets' allowed? Short answer - they wouldn't.

 

[ozzymo]

All you guys are hilarious- like banks are the people that have the interest of anyone but themselves in mind 😂😂

Oh but let me guess. Apple has my interests in mind and the interests of the millions of iPhone users out there. They aren't doing this for the 2T market value they have now, they are doing this to enrich the lives of people all over the world. Let's all sing Kumbaya now

 

[ozzymo]

You missed my second point earlier. Apple Pay doesn't allow merchants to track your purchases, build a dossier, and sell that information to anyone that wants it... which is why I prefer it. Why would merchants enable Apple Pay at their terminals if there were other 'wallets' allowed? Short answer - they wouldn't.

There are other wallets allowed at stores. I have never seen one store ever that only allows Apple Pay. Every store I have seen allows Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Target etc. I fail to see how any store would say since NFC is opened up we won't allow the other wallets.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Oh but let me guess. Apple has my interests in mind and the interests of the millions of iPhone users out there. They aren't doing this for the 2T market value they have now, they are doing this to enrich the lives of people all over the world. Let's all sing Kumbaya now

Blind hatred is making you- well, blind. Banks are notorious for their fixed strategy which makes them billions of pounds every second, world wide. Apple are disrupting that, perhaps making a thing or two themselves of course.

 

[ozzymo]

Blind hatred is making you- well, blind. Banks are notorious for their fused strategy which makes them billions of pounds every second. Apple are disrupting that, perhaps making a thing or two themselves.

I don't disagree with you. But let's be clear: Apple is not doing this to benefit anyone but themselves. They are disrupting the market because they saw an opportunity to make a LOT of money in the process. I have probably 15 apple devices in my home. I don't have a blind hatred for Apple. I just don't drink the KoolAid either and can see them for what they are: a capitalistic company. Nothing wrong with that, but let's not kid ourselves and think otherwise.

 

[7149041]

It is accessing the bank's servers with your account information stored on it. Why should the bank let Apple access their hardware?

Nobody is forcing the banks to comply with Apple Pay, they have an option of ignoring the Apple platform. And likewise, nobody should be forcing Apple to open a specific API. Clients have a choice - if you can't live without using your banks app to pay for stuff, get a different phone.

 

[RHohn5392]

Really? Apple uses the NFC chip to process financial transactions. Why can't Wells Fargo or Capital One use the NFC chip to process financial transactions? Equating your Chase debit card to the NFC reader on your apartment building is distorting the facts to fit Apple's narrative.

I'm not distorting anything. The example I provided just wasn't the best example. So, edited: I want to use the NFC chip on my Chase debit card to withdraw money from my Wells Fargo account, even tho the mag stripe and the EMV chip still withdraws from Chase. How is THAT different?

 

[gaximus]

It‘s not theirs...it’s yours! You own the NFC device in your phone.

I own the phone and the hardware in the phone, I don't own the right to access or use it how ever I want, According to the Software License Agreement I agreed to when I first set up my phone.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I don't disagree with you. But let's be clear: Apple is not doing this to benefit anyone but themselves. They are disrupting the market because they saw an opportunity to make a LOT of money in the process. I have probably 15 apple devices in my home. I don't have a blind hatred for Apple. I just don't drink the KoolAid either and can see them for what they are: a capitalistic company. Nothing wrong with that, but let's not kid ourselves and think otherwise.

I would trust Apple with my financial integrity over any of the worlds most successful financial institutions any day.

 

[ozzymo]

I would trust Apple with my financial integrity over any of the worlds most successful financial institutions any day.

That's cool. That's you. Do you speak for every consumer out there who makes financial transactions?

 

[FCX]

There are other wallets allowed at stores. I have never seen one store ever that only allows Apple Pay. Every store I have seen allows Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Target etc. I fail to see how any store would say since NFC is opened up we won't allow the other wallets.

You misunderstand. Yes, all stores allow many payment types. Some allow Apple Pay, at the expense of that juicy, juicy consumer-identifiable purchase data. IF alternate wallets are permitted on iPhone, there will be less incentive for merchants to enable Apple Pay, and indeed, force those iPhone users to pick anything other than Apple Pay so they get their data.

 

[[AUT] Thomas]

I can configure whatever credit card I want to use under Apple Pay. Apple Pay itself is free. So what is really the problem?

See... this is the problem... You believe you know something yet your statement is absolute proof you shouldn't have posted at all. Your posts BS score is a solid 10/10.

1.) It's not free, in fact Apple wanted a very high cut of the earnings of the banks (fees are low in Europe)
2.) Payment solutions not based on credit cards (a completely outdated system in first place) can not utilize the NFC function because Apple Pay doesn't support it.
3.) "whatever credit card"... yeah... whatever credit card Apple supports
4.) The anti-trust investigation is for stiffling innovation on the market of NFC solutions. That investigation has valid roots. And it's just an investigation as of now...

I side with Apple on this one, f**k banks. Pay or whine.

Why would you side with Apple? Side with none of them... Why do people here always believe they have to pick a side?
BOTH of them deserve an anti-trust investigation. When it comes to stiffling innovation I could rant for hours about banks taking DAYS to send a payment... yet a stock trade... we'll execute that in 50ms. Still too long? Let's put a new fibre cable in the ground directly connecting us with the stock exchange... 10ms quicker. You are in debt? Pay us interest! Have a lot of money on our account? Pay us interest! Banks sc**w up. Everyone else ends up paying for it... Yes, banks suck (quite generally actually, it's just which one sucks least). Doesn't mean others don't.

Everyone here always takes Apple's side, but I think it's a valid complaint and that Apple should open NFC up to other apps. I'd use Paypal or possible other methods.

That's actually the point... Paypal couldn't establish an NFC payment protocol.
Yet, NFC is by no means essential for electronic payments as demonstrated e.g. by bluecode. That's why this investigation will likely be closed without any action.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I would trust Apple with my financial integrity over any of the worlds most successful financial institutions any day.

And why is that? Did you democratically choose any of those institutions (including Apple)? Or is it because Tim Cook has nice blue eyes and other Bank CEOs have not? Your remark sounds a tad naive imo.

 

[ozzymo]

I'm not distorting anything. The example I provided just wasn't the best example. So, edited: I want to use the NFC chip on my Chase debit card to withdraw money from my Wells Fargo account, even tho the mag stripe and the EMV chip still withdraws from Chase. How is THAT different?

Ok so to the example you just provided. I have my Capital One card in my Apple Pay wallet. When I go to the store and use Apple Pay is Apple withdrawing money from an Apple bank to make the purchase? No they are using their own Apple hardware to access Capital One's hardware to determine if I have enough money to cover the purchase. Why should Apple be allowed to access Capital One's servers? In your scenario shouldn't Apple Pay only be allowed to access and withdraw money from Apple Bank?

 

[cpfoto2005]

Easy. Then you switch banks to a bank that allows choice and allows you to choose Apple Pay. Most banks would be wary to do that as they would lose a lot of iPhone customers.

Along the same thinking: Then you switch your phone to a phone that allows choice and allows you to choose apps with access to NFC.

 

[gaximus]

It seems like banks want to have access of the iPhone's NFC chip. Maybe banks want users to use the bank's app instead of Apple Pay.

If banks are allowed to do this, then they would stop allowing their cards to be used in Apple Pay, as a user you would then have to open up 5 different apps for all your bank accounts. You wouldn't be able to open it from the Lock Screen, and you wouldn't have a shortcut(double click of the power button) to open it directly from your watch or phone. This would be much worse for the customers. Look at the adoption rate of Walmart pay vs Apple Pay or Android Pay

 

[cupcakes2000]

And why is that? Did you democratically choose any of those institutions (including Apple)? Or is it because Tim Cook has nice blue eyes and another Bank CEO has not? Your remark sounds a tad naive imo.

I assume you have been living under rocks and missed all of the world financial crashes caused by banking mismanagement of the past years?

 

[Plutonius]

I thought that when you pay Dutch, everyone pays for their own .

I can't see this going anywhere. People will get the phone that supports what they want to do.

 

[Glideslope]

Next: European Antitrust Probe Targets Tim Cook's Underwear

Pretty sure he already feels the itch.