EU to Close Antitrust Investigation into Apple's Browser Choice Screen

[I7guy]

Right so its speculation as to why people would pick this OS over iOS in Asia and not because they actually view it as a better product

Correct. I e been told that in posts here, so some people have this thought process.

But when people pick iOS it’s because it’s a better product?
Right

Again, I’ve been told one can’t make that determination.

I don’t get what you mean?
Baidu has a market share of over 70% and you’re saying it’s a sub standard experience yet you have never used it & it can reach a population of about 1.4 billion people just in one country.
Yet google is pre installed on every android device & it’s the default for safari and you don’t see any wrong with that
And yet when a country prioritizes its own search engine there’s a problem

Yes it’s a substandard experience compared to google, imo, but people may not know better. Google is popular the world over for a reason.

 

[Stuwil]

You like listening to yourself repeat things, don’t you? Nonsensical.

Right so no actual comeback about competition this time & how there’s competition in china with 3 mobile OS but I thought you said competition will always come because that’s what’s always happened throughout history in tech
Right but it’s different because it’s in china & not the EU or America right I get you

Then you said that the EU should let the market decide & not rely on America or Asia for tech & they should create their own search engine right
So when I point out that china does that then that’s different because government interference
Right

Right you want competition but just not when china has it

 

[TgeekB]

Right so no actual comeback about competition this time & how there’s competition in china with 3 mobile OS but I thought you said competition will always come because that’s what’s always happened throughout history in tech
Right but it’s different because it’s in china & not the EU or America right I get you

Then you said that the EU should let the market decide & not rely on America or Asia for tech & they should create their own search engine right
So when I point out that china does that then that’s different because government interference
Right

Right you want competition but just not when china has it

You say “Right” a lot. It seems like you’re trying to convince yourself. Right? 🤣

 

[Stuwil]

Correct. I e been told that in posts here, so some people have this thought process.

Again, I’ve been told one can’t make that determination.

Yes it’s a substandard experience compared to google, imo, but people may not know better. Google is popular the world over for a reason.

Ah right so you have been told from people on an apple fan website that non apple products are not that good right

right so one can’t make a determination if harmony os is better than iOS in china yet more people choose to buy it in that region
Right

Have you actually used the search engine to form an opinion

 

[I7guy]

Ah right so you have been told from people on an apple fan website that non apple products are not that good right

You’re welcome to have the opinion you want about why customers buy certain products. I would think it’s near impossible to really distill down the rational for hundreds of customers and be right about it. But that’s me.

right so one can’t make a determination if harmony os is better than iOS in china yet more people choose to buy it in that region
Right

Correct.

Have you actually used the search engine to form an opinion

Google has a breadth and depth not found in other search engines.

 

[Stuwil]

You’re welcome to have the opinion you want about why customers buy certain products. I would think it’s near impossible to really distill down the rational for hundreds of customers and be right about it. But that’s me.

Correct.

Google has a breadth and depth not found in other search engines.

ok so now we don’t determine if a product is successful anymore by the amount of people that buy the product in that region compared with the competition.

Yet you told me that iOS was the best because more people in America use it compared with android yet when it’s another country & another os then that’s different because Apple has less market share

Ok but that doesn’t mean that baidu is a worse experience how can it be.
It’s impossible for google to have a better experience than it

This start screen in the EU is a good idea in the current climate or else things could get mandated

 

[I7guy]

ok so now we don’t determine if a product is successful anymore by the amount of people that buy the product in that region compared with the competition.

Pet rock was a successful product by that measure as well.

Yet you told me that iOS was the best because more people in America use it compared with android yet when it’s another country & another os then that’s different because Apple has less market share

I said IOS was best subjectively. People have claimed that android is best objectively. But objective facts don't equal subjective rational.

Ok but that doesn’t mean that baidu is a worse experience how can it be.

The claim was google has a depth and breadth over other search engines. That's fairly objective. Subjectively you may prefer other search engines. But google is still a popular choice no matter how much the goal posts are moved.

It’s impossible for google to have a better experience than it

This start screen in the EU is a good idea in the current climate or else things could get mandated

Yes, the EU is dumbing down all functionality to the lowest common denominator which equals worst in class.

 

[Stuwil]

Pet rock was a successful product by that measure as well.

I said IOS was best subjectively. People have claimed that android is best objectively. But objective facts don't equal subjective rational.

The claim was google has a depth and breadth over other search engines. That's fairly objective. Subjectively you may prefer other search engines. But google is still a popular choice no matter how much the goal posts are moved.

Yes, the EU is dumbing down all functionality to the lowest common denominator which equals worst in class.

How can google have a better experience than baidu at search
That’s impossible

Ok but it’s not about objective facts
It’s a fact that harmony os is better than iOS in china if that wasn’t the case then why is china the only country in the world that apple discounts there latest iPhone on sale.

It’s not about subjective or objective
The question was how can baidu be a
sub standard experience if you have never used it

Ok so they are dumbing down in class because they are giving customers a choice at the start screen & making people aware that other search engines exist & that’s a bad thing

 

[Stuwil]

Yet you’re not paying attention or learning. You’re making arguments that don’t make any sense. You’re not listening to everyone else who is trying to teach you. You come back with “Right, so…….” Which adds nothing to the conversation. You are, for whatever reason, on an Apple fan website trying to say communist run OS’s are better than iOS. You are defending the EU who is attempting to hinder technological advancement. Keep going. It’s entertaining at best.

you did say that a new mobile os would come as history has shown us with blackberry & Nokia where on top then Apple came along with their os
So then I took your advice & listened then I saw china had three mobile os’s
So that means your correct about someone else will come along to compete with google & Apple
So you were correct in fact android has a 60% market share in china

Yes I do own an iPhone so that’s why I’m on an apple fan site

I then took your advice about the EU that they should make their own search engine & not rely on America in your words however you don’t seem to like that option so the only thing realistically the EU can do is create a start screen to make customers away of other options
Unless you like the other option

But yeah you were right about competition & you were right that the EU should incentivize a new search engine

 

[Abazigal]

Right I get google make money from ads

Yet that doesn’t explain in the current market with google giving their OS away for free then how is any startup company going to be able to compete with that because with google doing that they are basically squashing their competition.

See it this way.

Usain Bolt was at the absolute top of his game when he was still actively competing. I don't hear any of his competitors claiming that they ought to be given a 30-second head start in order to stand a chance of winning. I guess it sucks to have been born during his time, but it is what it is.

I have also been delving in the vTuber rabbit hole of late, and one observation I have made is that the ones with more active viewers are those who were active many years ago when the concept of being a virtual streamer was still a fairly new and novel one. Today, it feels like the space is pretty saturated, with new entrants struggling to grow an audience and having to contend with viewership in the low hundreds when everyone else appears to have already latched on to an existing streamer. In short, there just isn't much of the pie left to fight over.

The same can be said for the video streaming space. Currently, it seems like only Netflix is profitable (and only after more than a decade in business), while every other service is making huge losses. Only Disney, Apple and Amazon seem like they have the resources to keep funding the creation of new content indefinitely.

The truth of the matter is that the reason why Google is so dominant goes a lot deeper than them simply giving away their version of Android for free, and I suspect that you are simply choosing to not see it. You think that the entire problem is caused by Google and Apple choosing not to share their technology, but the real answer, I feel, is a lot more nuanced than that.

There's the services like google maps which Google also makes available for free, and which they can choose to not make available on competing platforms (like windows phone). There's the App Store (which is more a developer problem than a google one, because even back when Microsoft was trying to make Windows phone a thing, developers famously decided to not release apps for it at all). There's the stark truth that it's no longer enough to just release a smartphone in today's day and age and expect it to be enough. You have to come up with your own ecosystem and it's not something you can create from scratch in a single day.

And for all we know, even if a new entrant releases a third smartphone OS, why would any smartphone OEM want to adopt it over Android when again, the former would likely have no ecosystem supporting it? Why would any consumer want to buy said smartphone over the more established brands like Samsung or the iPhone?

You are asking a lot of "what if" questions, to a problem that does not have a single straightforward answer or solution. Companies like Apple and Google did not arrive at their current dominant position by chance. Yes, they started off on the right foot with a great product, but they have also spent billions of dollars over the years improving on said product while also building a formidable ecosystem around it. Apple has also spent the better part of a decade building up their supply chain in China. Apple also had to bank on a fervent user base from their Mac days. And it didn't happen overnight. Every percentage of market share iOS and Android enjoy today, they fought tooth and nail and earned from the likes of Nokia, Blackberry, Windows Phone, even webOS and each other.

Why then do you feel like a new upstart is entitled to dethrone the incumbents without having had any of their accomplishments or their investments to show for it? Especially when Apple and Google have not been resting on their laurels and continue to improve on their product offerings every year?

Which is also why I find it ironic in a sense, that after all these years, we may finally have a new competitor to Google (openAI), and the first instinct is for everybody to call for AI to be regulated and to preserve the status quo (which will serve to only further entrench Google's dominance). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Right if that’s the case then why is there no dedicated instagram app for the ipad
& you have to use the iPhone version?

Did you even read the post I was responding to? Instagram wasn’t even mentioned!

I have no idea what deeply intensive things folks are doing in instagram that would require a dedicated app, but I feel for them. Not that they don’t have an iPad app, that they need instagram that much!

 

[Unregistered 4U]

So how can you undercut them for a start

You think EVERYTHING is about the money and, if it were, the Mac wouldn’t even exist. Yet, there it is, a successful competitor that you think doesn’t exist. And, the iPhone absolutely didn’t undercut its competition at the time.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If that’s the issue, why isn’t the EU regulating that, rather than forcing iOS to turn into an open ecosystem?

It’s about “whatever they want it to be about” at any point in time. There’s little consistency because, at the core, the reason for the DMA to exist doesn’t make sense. I feel for them having to MAKE sense out of nonsense.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Mate I had a Commodore 64 if you even know what that is?

I’m assuming you’re still using it as literally nothing came out after it that was better because no one had the money to beat it. Because, it’s not about having better ideas, it’s about having money, of course.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

This conversation is hilarious. How someone can be so blind to how the tech industry works is beyond me.

I feel like I understand an EU regulators’ minds SO much better now. You have to start with a complete lack of understanding of “how we got here” to come up with the absolute WORST way to go forward. At no point did they look at the EU and go “Why don’t we have any world class tech companies here?” and consider how their past actions led to their current state.

 

[Stuwil]

See it this way.

Usain Bolt was at the absolute top of his game when he was still actively competing. I don't hear any of his competitors claiming that they ought to be given a 30-second head start in order to stand a chance of winning. I guess it sucks to have been born during his time, but it is what it is.

I have also been delving in the vTuber rabbit hole of late, and one observation I have made is that the ones with more active viewers are those who were active many years ago when the concept of being a virtual streamer was still a fairly new and novel one. Today, it feels like the space is pretty saturated, with new entrants struggling to grow an audience and having to contend with viewership in the low hundreds when everyone else appears to have already latched on to an existing streamer. In short, there just isn't much of the pie left to fight over.

The same can be said for the video streaming space. Currently, it seems like only Netflix is profitable (and only after more than a decade in business), while every other service is making huge losses. Only Disney, Apple and Amazon seem like they have the resources to keep funding the creation of new content indefinitely.

The truth of the matter is that the reason why Google is so dominant goes a lot deeper than them simply giving away their version of Android for free, and I suspect that you are simply choosing to not see it. You think that the entire problem is caused by Google and Apple choosing not to share their technology, but the real answer, I feel, is a lot more nuanced than that.

There's the services like google maps which Google also makes available for free, and which they can choose to not make available on competing platforms (like windows phone). There's the App Store (which is more a developer problem than a google one, because even back when Microsoft was trying to make Windows phone a thing, developers famously decided to not release apps for it at all). There's the stark truth that it's no longer enough to just release a smartphone in today's day and age and expect it to be enough. You have to come up with your own ecosystem and it's not something you can create from scratch in a single day.

And for all we know, even if a new entrant releases a third smartphone OS, why would any smartphone OEM want to adopt it over Android when again, the former would likely have no ecosystem supporting it? Why would any consumer want to buy said smartphone over the more established brands like Samsung or the iPhone?

You are asking a lot of "what if" questions, to a problem that does not have a single straightforward answer or solution. Companies like Apple and Google did not arrive at their current dominant position by chance. Yes, they started off on the right foot with a great product, but they have also spent billions of dollars over the years improving on said product while also building a formidable ecosystem around it. Apple has also spent the better part of a decade building up their supply chain in China. Apple also had to bank on a fervent user base from their Mac days. And it didn't happen overnight. Every percentage of market share iOS and Android enjoy today, they fought tooth and nail and earned from the likes of Nokia, Blackberry, Windows Phone, even webOS and each other.

Why then do you feel like a new upstart is entitled to dethrone the incumbents without having had any of their accomplishments or their investments to show for it? Especially when Apple and Google have not been resting on their laurels and continue to improve on their product offerings every year?

Which is also why I find it ironic in a sense, that after all these years, we may finally have a new competitor to Google (openAI), and the first instinct is for everybody to call for AI to be regulated and to preserve the status quo (which will serve to only further entrench Google's dominance). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are missing the point
The reason the EU are regulating Apple & Google is because there is no major competition
In regards to search engine & mobile OS’s
Because how the current market is setup
That’s all

 

[Stuwil]

Did you even read the post I was responding to? Instagram wasn’t even mentioned!

I have no idea what deeply intensive things folks are doing in instagram that would require a dedicated app, but I feel for them. Not that they don’t have an iPad app, that they need instagram that much!

Because your point was developer would make their apps available on any new os because they want to get their app out to as many users as possible & I say rubbish
Because there are many examples of companies who have produced mobiles & that’s one of the reasons they failed because developers wouldn’t build apps for it like the windows phone & Amazon fire phone & the blackberry touch screen mobile
Hence why they all failed
I know because my family bought them & they couldn’t get their apps for it.

 

[Stuwil]

I’m assuming you’re still using it as literally nothing came out after it that was better because no one had the money to beat it. Because, it’s not about having better ideas, it’s about having money, of course.

Android is free to use for any OEM so how can it be just about the money and as a consequence of that then chrome is pre installed on 3.5 billion devices so in turn has allowed them to become the dominant company in search
So as a consequence of that dominance then governments are either bringing in regulation like having a start screen with a choice or regulating it so it’s mandatory for a search engine from that country is prioritized
Now is that what you want

 

[Stuwil]

I feel like I understand an EU regulators’ minds SO much better now. You have to start with a complete lack of understanding of “how we got here” to come up with the absolute WORST way to go forward. At no point did they look at the EU and go “Why don’t we have any world class tech companies here?” and consider how their past actions led to their current state.

But you don’t want the EU to actually have their own search engine or mobile OS
This is all to do with them regulating Apple in the EU & nothing more.

 

[laptech]

Mate this isn’t about you wanting competition
for you This is because the EU are regulating Apple because they an American company

Well unfortunately you they can & will continue to do so until there is a legitimate 3rd mobile OS & an actual competitor for chrome

The bit in bold is a false fallacy because the EU has to follow it's own laws as well and therefore if an American company was of the belief they were being treated unfairly they can take the EU to court. Has Apple taken the EU to court because they feel they are being unfairly targeted? no they haven't. Therefore this idea that the EU is targeting Apple just because they are an American company is laughable and ludicrous.

 

[Stuwil]

The bit in bold is a false fallacy because the EU has to follow it's own laws as well and therefore if an American company was of the belief they were being treated unfairly they can take the EU to court. Has Apple taken the EU to court because they feel they are being unfairly targeted? no they haven't. Therefore this idea that the EU is targeting Apple just because they are an American company is laughable and ludicrous.

the actual comment was mate this isn’t about you wanting competition for you
It’s because the EU are regulating Apple because they are an American company
Maybe you should put it into context instead of cherry picking one sentence.

This is about search engines & the EU putting regulation in place for a start screen
On iOS because of Google’s dominant position in regards to mobile & making people aware that other companies actually exist instead of the chrome monopoly

Unless you think people shouldn’t be giving a choice

 

[surferfb]

The bit in bold is a false fallacy because the EU has to follow it's own laws as well and therefore if an American company was of the belief they were being treated unfairly they can take the EU to court. Has Apple taken the EU to court because they feel they are being unfairly targeted? no they haven't. Therefore this idea that the EU is targeting Apple just because they are an American company is laughable and ludicrous.

Except the law was clearly written to target American companies and avoid hitting European ones.

But you don’t have to take my word for it.
Here’s a European professor:

The spectre of protectionist intervention is reinforced by the fact that revenue thresholds outlined in the DMA seem designed purposefully to exclude European platforms, notably Spotify

 

[Stuwil]

Except the law was clearly written to target American companies and avoid hitting European ones.

But you don’t have to take my word for it.
Here’s a European professor:

Is that not what the current us goverment is doing with tariffs on foreign imports?

To make American companies build things in America instead of other countries

At the end of the day every government regulates no matter what country it is

 

[Stuwil]

The EU shouldn't, but EU companies absolutely should. In fact, given the state of the US at the moment, I'd argue it's in everyone's interest that the EU cut the red tape it puts around its tech companies and invest significant funds to help its companies - whether that's building a home-grown competitor to iOS and Android or developing state-of-the-art AI, or whatever. But the EU shouldn't be ceding its future to be dependent on China and the US.

In response to your second question, I am in favor of (what I consider) sensible regulations, for things like health and safety of customers and employees, protections against false advertising, environmental harm, limiting (actual) monopolies, and the like. Demanding that OS providers be prohibited form setting their own browser to be default, and produce an extremely user-unfriendly "browser choice" screen doesn't come anywhere close to the bar required for government intervention. Particularly when the result of the regulation will actually do the opposite of what it intends, and will actually give more market share to the market leader by taking away market share from its strongest competitor.

Ok so in one point you say the EU should be building a home grown competitor to iOS or android & shouldn’t be ceding its future on china & the US
But then when I point out in china there is a Chinese company competing with Apple you then say that’s government control?

Then I point out that in china they have a search engine called baidu & not google you then say that’s not correct
Yet on this post you want the EU not to rely on china or America your words

Then you complain about the start screen regarding browser choice and you don’t think that’s correct but on the other hand you want competition but on the other hand you don’t actually want competition

 

[surferfb]

Is that not what the current us goverment is doing with tariffs on foreign imports?

To make American companies build things in America instead of other countries

At the end of the day every government regulates no matter what country it is

Yep. I’m not a fan of those either. Regulations should be fair.

Ok so in one point you say the EU should be building a home grown competitor to iOS or android & shouldn’t be ceding its future on china & the US
But then when I point out in china there is a Chinese company competing with Apple you then say that’s government control?

There’s a difference between fostering a home grown competitor and actively stacking the deck against foreign companies. And I think we can both agree the EU’s political environment is preferable to a “communist” dictatorship that tramples human rights.

Then I point out that in china they have a search engine called baidu & not google you then say that’s not correct

I didn’t say that wasn’t correct, I said that because Google search doesn’t compete in China you can’t say the Chinese market thinks Baidu is better than Google.

Yet on this post you want the EU not to rely on china or America your words

Then you complain about the start screen regarding browser choice and you don’t think that’s correct but on the other hand you want competition but on the other hand you don’t actually want competition

I think this is what you are missing: I don’t think the browser choice screen increases competition. In fact, I think it will lead to less competition in the long run, because many “normal users” will select the option they’ve heard of (Chrome) vs Safari, further strengthening Google.

To be abundantly clear, I support competition. I just think the DMA will lead to less competition and worse products.