EU to Close Antitrust Investigation into Apple's Browser Choice Screen

[Stuwil]

Google was already dominant when they bought android in 2005. At that time yahoo was nipping at their heels. Their strategy was a good one.

The Google market share was only 44% before 2008
So that’s hardly a massive lead
Then something changed after that to dramatically increase their lead
Like maybe releasing android for free to then dramatically increase their market share from 44% to 89%
But yeah it’s all right to have one company dominate the market & not regulate it

 

[I7guy]

The Google market share was only 44% before 2008
So that’s hardly a massive lead

Well in the eu iOS trails android, so there is that.

Then something changed after that to dramatically increase their lead

Yes. Yahoo went belly up and google started to do things better.

Like maybe releasing android for free to then dramatically increase their market share from 44% to 89%

Or starting mobile browsing from the iPhone. Either way google had a lead going in. But then the others tanked themselves.

But yeah it’s all right to have one company dominate the market & not regulate it

As long as the company got there legally and fits the framework of existing laws.

 

[Stuwil]

Censoring results to control the population puts the user experience down near the bottom. Plus google has a depth and breadth that bad doesn’t have, unless google was hacked and its data siphoned off.

It’s true android market share is greater than iOS market share worldwide. What’s your point?

People above my pay grade make those decisions. I personally don’t care.

ok so if your in china then what search engine are you going to use then?
The one that’s pre installed or a 3rd party one?

Because in china apple have been in 3rd place because they are competing against other companies who are offering better products according to the market
If they had proper competition in the west & not just one company then they would have to properly improve their products more than just small upgrades every year

Having a choice is good for competition

 

[Stuwil]

Well in the eu iOS trails android, so there is that.

Yes. Yahoo went belly up and google started to do things better.

Or starting mobile browsing from the iPhone. Either way google had a lead going in. But then the others tanked themselves.

As long as the company got there legally and fits the framework of existing laws.

No that’s not what happened yahoo never went belly up Google launched android & as a consequence of that it then increased their market share dramatically because it was pre installed on every device sold so naturally it got much better over time because of it
That is why governments are regulating them
Now what Google did is not illegal however they are getting to point due to their actions where they are potentially getting broken up

 

[I7guy]

ok so if your in china then what search engine are you going to use then?
The one that’s pre installed or a 3rd party one?

Because in china apple have been in 3rd place because they are competing against other companies who are offering better products according to the market
If they had proper competition in the west & not just one company then they would have to properly improve their products more than just small upgrades every year

Having a choice is good for competition

Competition is good except when regulated or influenced by government. As in the cases of apple and google. Apple has never been the top seller. They been the most profitable and liked and admired corporation by various surveys - at least in the US.

 

[I7guy]

No that’s not what happened yahoo never went belly up Google launched android & as a consequence of that it then increased their market share dramatically because it was pre installed on every device sold so naturally it got much better over time because of it
That is why governments are regulating them
Now what Google did is not illegal however they are getting to point due to their actions where they are potentially getting broken up

Yahoo did go belly up. They made some bad decisions and became a shell of their former self. Google was already on track to be the most popular browser and it got helped by mobile searches, notably from Apple.

 

[Stuwil]

Yahoo did go belly up. They made some bad decisions and became a shell of their former self. Google was already on track to be the most popular browser and it got helped by mobile searches, notably from Apple.

Because the iPhone & then android launched so as a consequence of that then chrome was the default search engine on both platforms
So with that Google then managed to squeeze the competition out because the smartphone era took off and that is why Google went from having 44% market share to having 89% because they are the default browser on over 3.5 billion devices for android & are the default search engine under safari with access to about 1.5 billion
So with being that they managed to squeeze out the competition at the start and then continued their dominance because of it.

That is why governments are now trying to regulate them & why the EU is putting a start screen on iOS because as the EU is not china they won’t ban Google completely but what they can do is things like that

 

[Stuwil]

Competition is good except when regulated or influenced by government. As in the cases of apple and google. Apple has never been the top seller. They been the most profitable and liked and admired corporation by various surveys - at least in the US.

I think your not understanding you are not marched down to buy a huawei product people buy because of the technology that it has & compares it to the competition & as a consequence of that you have more choice because then Apple are not only competing with android they are also competing with them. Where as in the west there are only 2 companies to choose from so as a consequence of that then Apple just consistently just does minor updates to their mobile’s every year rather than making major improvements

Then because of only having 2 companies in mobile it has allowed the both companies to put certain business practices in that they are now getting regulated by governments all over the world and it will continue because the 2 companies have such a grip right now.

 

[surferfb]

I think your not understanding you are not marched down to buy a huawei product people buy because of the technology that it has & compares it to the competition & as a consequence of that you have more choice because then Apple are not only competing with android they are also competing with them. Where as in the west there are only 2 companies to choose from so as a consequence of that then Apple just consistently just does minor updates to their mobile’s every year rather than making major improvements

There are multiple companies making devices. Just because there are only two OSes doesn’t mean only two companies are coming out with features.

I also strongly disagree that Apple is just doing “minor updates” because there isn’t a third OS. Even if the fact they are doing “minor updates” is true (I disagree but understand why others might think so), it’s much more likely because smartphones are a mature product category. It’s not like Android and Apple don’t want to be selling more phones and would love to use exciting new features the other doesn’t have to do so.

Then because of only having 2 companies in mobile it has allowed the both companies to put certain business practices in that they are now getting regulated by governments all over the world and it will continue because the 2 companies have such a grip right now.

Why do you assume it would be any different with a third competitor? Apple and Android are competing against Huawei in China, and China is arguably Apple’s second biggest market. That’s not enough competition for Apple?

And none of this addresses the point: nothing the DMA does encourages a third OS to arise. In fact, it does more to cement Apple and Android as the only two options than encourage a third one. It’s saying it’s fixing a problem when not actually fixing anything.

 

[I7guy]

Because the iPhone & then android launched so as a consequence of that then chrome was the default search engine on both platforms
So with that Google then managed to squeeze the competition out because the smartphone era took off and that is why Google went from having 44% market share to having 89% because they are the default browser on over 3.5 billion devices for android & are the default search engine under safari with access to about 1.5 billion
So with being that they managed to squeeze out the competition at the start and then continued their dominance because of it.

That is why governments are now trying to regulate them & why the EU is putting a start screen on iOS because as the EU is not china they won’t ban Google completely but what they can do is things like that

I think your not understanding you are not marched down to buy a huawei product people buy because of the technology that it has & compares it to the competition & as a consequence of that you have more choice because then Apple are not only competing with android they are also competing with them. Where as in the west there are only 2 companies to choose from so as a consequence of that then Apple just consistently just does minor updates to their mobile’s every year rather than making major improvements

Then because of only having 2 companies in mobile it has allowed the both companies to put certain business practices in that they are now getting regulated by governments all over the world and it will continue because the 2 companies have such a grip right now.

The ascendence of google as a popular search engine going into 2007 combined with with mobile browsing from the iPhone helpe propel google into the stratosphere as the most popular search engine. This combined with missteps from Yahoo. Google is a popular brand. The reason people don’t use google is they use a more privacy focused front-end like DuckDuckGo.

There are literally hundreds of phone manufacturers in the world, each with their different spin. I also caved in and set google as my default search engine because imo it’s the best for my needs.

As surferfb said, the DMA doesn’t promote competition it all buy guarantees there son’s be any legitimate competition in the EU. Only competition for Apples regulated apis and such.

 

[Stuwil]

There are multiple companies making devices. Just because there are only two OSes doesn’t mean only two companies are coming out with features.

I also strongly disagree that Apple is just doing “minor updates” because there isn’t a third OS. Even if the fact they are doing “minor updates” is true (I disagree but understand why others might think so), it’s much more likely because smartphones are a mature product category. It’s not like Android and Apple don’t want to be selling more phones and would love to use exciting new features the other doesn’t have to do so.


Why do you assume it would be any different with a third competitor? Apple and Android are competing against Huawei in China, and China is arguably Apple’s second biggest market. That’s not enough competition for Apple?

And none of this addresses the point: nothing the DMA does encourages a third OS to arise. In fact, it does more to cement Apple and Android as the only two options than encourage a third one. It’s saying it’s fixing a problem when not actually fixing anything.

ok let’s take your points

Yes there are multiple devices but you’re choices are limited between iOS & android where as if you had a 3rd player with a big market share then the mobile market would improve on multiple levels because then there would be 3 competitors and the quality would be higher

Yes it would force Apple to actually make better improvements to software & hardware because the 3rd company has 1 billion active users & there products have got out standing tech in them so then Apple would not only be competing against high end Samsung but also the other company
Which would then make them improve their products better as a consequence

there is a reason hardware wise that Apple doesn’t the latest technology into their phones & it’s not because they can’t.

Because in china & because of competition they have had to put their iPhones on sale in their stores and they don’t do that anywhere else plus in that region they are competing against 2nd place because of the quality of products they are competing against.

The DMA exists because there is fundamentally no competition and it’s very unlikely to rise anytime soon because if it could happen then china wouldn’t be the only country in the world with 3 actual competing companies

 

[I7guy]

ok let’s take your points

Yes there are multiple devices but you’re choices are limited between iOS & android where as if you had a 3rd player with a big market share then the mobile market would improve on multiple levels because then there would be 3 competitors and the quality would be higher

This wont happen because the DMA now guarantees any big player, especially American, will be a gatekeeper, because it’s revenue based. Tell me which company is going to sink funds into being a regulated gatekeeper?

Yes it would force Apple to actually make better improvements to software & hardware because the 3rd company has 1 billion active users & there products have got out standing tech in them so then Apple would not only be competing against high end Samsung but also the other company
Which would then make them improve their products better as a consequence

Apple will do what it thinks it’s best for its users. You can’t force people to buy a lousy product, they have to want to buy the product, and that is where apple excels.

there is a reason hardware wise that Apple doesn’t the latest technology into their phones & it’s not because they can’t.

Yes, the reasons is that specs don’t sell. The experience sells and apple creates the experience.

Because in china & because of competition they have had to put their iPhones on sale in their stores and they don’t do that anywhere else plus in that region they are competing against 2nd place because of the quality of products they are competing against.

The government stacked the deck against apple in china, that is the reason.

The DMA exists because there is fundamentally no competition and it’s very unlikely to rise anytime soon because if it could happen then china wouldn’t be the only country in the world with 3 actual competing companies

There will never, ever fundamentally be competition in the EU. For everything about china at least they encourage competition.

 

[surferfb]

ok let’s take your points

Yes there are multiple devices but you’re choices are limited between iOS & android where as if you had a 3rd player with a big market share then the mobile market would improve on multiple levels because then there would be 3 competitors and the quality would be higher

I don’t see any evidence the quality would be higher with a third OS. Do you have any proof of this?

Yes it would force Apple to actually make better improvements to software & hardware because the 3rd company has 1 billion active users & there products have got out standing tech in them so then Apple would not only be competing against high end Samsung but also the other company
Which would then make them improve their products better as a consequence

Why do you think Apple would compete harder against two companies, one, say, with 1.5 billion users and another with 2 billion than they compete today against one company with 3.5 billion users?

there is a reason hardware wise that Apple doesn’t the latest technology into their phones & it’s not because they can’t.

I disagree wholeheartedly that Apple “isn’t putting the latest technology in their phones.” I think given Apple’s scale and (for lack of a better word) “conservativeness” they often wait to implement features that others at smaller scales will rush out to market. I don’t think a third competitor would change that.

Because in china & because of competition they have had to put their iPhones on sale in their stores and they don’t do that anywhere else plus in that region they are competing against 2nd place because of the quality of products they are competing against.

They’re not putting phones on sale and competing for second place because of quality, they’re doing that because their phones are too expensive for the vast majority of users in the market. Not to mention the government actively putting their thumb on the scale for their companies.

The DMA exists because there is fundamentally no competition and it’s very unlikely to rise anytime soon because if it could happen then china wouldn’t be the only country in the world with 3 actual competing companies

There is no reason the EU couldn’t do what China did and support its local companies to make a great smartphone OS. The fact that their conclusion was “the big American companies must be cheating so let’s pull them down” is a pretty good indication of why there isn’t a powerful EU tech company. And the way in which they “pulled them down” almost assures there won’t be a third competitor. Which is why lots of us are saying this is a bad regulation that doesn’t actually fix the problem it claims to fix.

 

[Stuwil]

The ascendence of google as a popular search engine going into 2007 combined with with mobile browsing from the iPhone helpe propel google into the stratosphere as the most popular search engine. This combined with missteps from Yahoo. Google is a popular brand. The reason people don’t use google is they use a more privacy focused front-end like DuckDuckGo.

There are literally hundreds of phone manufacturers in the world, each with their different spin. I also caved in and set google as my default search engine because imo it’s the best for my needs.

As surferfb said, the DMA doesn’t promote competition it all buy guarantees there son’s be any legitimate competition in the EU. Only competition for Apples regulated apis and such.

Google’s market share before 2008 was 44%
Yahoo’s was about 29% so not that much of a difference then in 2007 google partnered with Apple to have chrome under safari & then google launched android with chrome as the defaulted browser so then that squeezed out the competition
That is why Google’s market share is now 89% because of the smartphone market in the west
That is why they are getting regulated and that is why you now have a start screen to pick your search engine in the EU

Again the dma exists because there is no competition and there is unlikely going to be any competition anytime soon

 

[I7guy]

Google’s market share before 2008 was 44%
Yahoo’s was about 29% so not that much of a difference then in 2007 google partnered with Apple to have chrome under safari & then google launched android with chrome as the defaulted browser so then that squeezed out the competition
That is why Google’s market share is now 89% because of the smartphone market in the west
That is why they are getting regulated and that is why you now have a start screen to pick your search engine in the EU

Again the dma exists because there is no competition and there is unlikely going to be any competition anytime soon

Think we have a different view on which we won’t reconcile. The lead google had combined with yahoos missteps. In 2009 yahoo had a market share of about 5% and google had a market share of 65%. Lots of that was help by mobile browsing on the iPhone.

Again, the DMA is not a competition enhancer but a competition killer all but guaranteeing there won’t be more competition in the EU.

 

[Stuwil]

I don’t see any evidence the quality would be higher with a third OS. Do you have any proof of this?


Why do you think Apple would compete harder against two companies, one, say, with 1.5 billion users and another with 2 billion than they compete today against one company with 3.5 billion users?


I disagree wholeheartedly that Apple “isn’t putting the latest technology in their phones.” I think given Apple’s scale and (for lack of a better word) “conservativeness” they often wait to implement features that others at smaller scales will rush out to market. I don’t think a third competitor would change that.

They’re not putting phones on sale and competing for second place because of quality, they’re doing that because their phones are too expensive for the vast majority of users in the market. Not to mention the government actively putting their thumb on the scale for their companies.


There is no reason the EU couldn’t do what China did and support its local companies to make a great smartphone OS. The fact that their conclusion was “the big American companies must be cheating so let’s pull them down” is a pretty good indication of why there isn’t a powerful EU tech company.

ok so can you name another big great smartphone OS maker anywhere else in the world?

Yes because all you have to do is look at the data from china and you will see what happens when you get actual competition means more choice & better products for the customer.

No your wrong because if they are faced with a 3rd competitor that then eats into their market share they they would be forced to actually improve their hardware specs & not give subtle improvements like improve camera aperture

The reason why the EU doesn’t do it & it’s the exact same as every other country in the world apart from china is because of how the smartphone market is setup in the west currently & that is not going to change anytime soon

 

[surferfb]

ok so can you name another big great smartphone OS maker anywhere else in the world?

Yes because all you have to do is look at the data from china and you will see what happens when you get actual competition means more choice & better products for the customer.

No your wrong because if they are faced with a 3rd competitor that then eats into their market share they they would be forced to actually improve their hardware specs & not give subtle improvements like improve camera aperture

The reason why the EU doesn’t do it & it’s the exact same as every other country in the world apart from china is because of how the smartphone market is setup in the west currently & that is not going to change anytime soon

If your response is simply "no you're wrong a third competitor would force competition" without any proof to back it up, or an explanation for why that didn't happen when there were multiple OSes out there, then I don't think we're doing anything productive here.

Have a good day! I'll see you in the next thread.

 

[Stuwil]

Think we have a different view on which we won’t reconcile. The lead google had combined with yahoos missteps. In 2009 yahoo had a market share of about 5% and google had a market share of 65%. Lots of that was help by mobile browsing on the iPhone.

Again, the DMA is not a competition enhancer but a competition killer all but guaranteeing there won’t be more competition in the EU.

Yahoo’s market share was about 28 to 29% before android launched & then it launched & then it more or less squeezed every other search engine out there because chrome was suddenly the default on every smartphone available to buy so then most people just used the default browser on the device & that’s how good got fundamentally better than the competition & as a consequence of that you are now seeing them getting regulated with the potential to separate chrome & Google

There is no competition anywhere in the world apart from 2 companies & that’s not going to change anytime soon so that’s why the dma has been introduced

 

[I7guy]

Yahoo’s market share was about 28 to 29% before android launched & then it launched & then it more or less squeezed every other search engine out there because chrome was suddenly the default on every smartphone available to buy so then most people just used the default browser on the device & that’s how good got fundamentally better than the competition & as a consequence of that you are now seeing them getting regulated with the potential to separate chrome & Google

There is no competition anywhere in the world apart from 2 companies & that’s not going to change anytime soon so that’s why the dma has been introduced

The ascendancy of google was prior to android taking hold. The decline of yahoo was prior to android taking hold. The rise of google was in part due to mobile browsing helped by the iPhone.

The DMA has 100% guaranteed in the EU there won’t be further competition in the smartphone space. They recognize the DMA is a competition killer. No business in their right mind would now want to be a large company doing business in the EU.

 

[Stuwil]

If your response is simply "no you're wrong a third competitor would force competition" without any proof to back it up, or an explanation for why that didn't happen when there were multiple OSes out there, then I don't think we're doing anything productive here.

Have a good day! I'll see you in the next thread.

I’ve been very clear in china they are fighting between 2nd & 3rd place because they have actually got competition out there.

Regarding your multiple os’s out there that’s because it’s only in one location that they are competing against 2 other mobile operating systems it would be a different story if it was world wide

And again that’s not going to happen anytime soon because the only competition in the world for Apple & Google is in china

 

[Stuwil]

The ascendancy of google was prior to android taking hold. The decline of yahoo was prior to android taking hold. The rise of google was in part due to mobile browsing helped by the iPhone.

The DMA has 100% guaranteed in the EU there won’t be further competition in the smartphone space. They recognize the DMA is a competition killer. No business in their right mind would now want to be a large company doing business in the EU.

If the DMA is a competition killer as you say then can you point to any other country in the world that has a mobile operating system that competes with Apple & Google?

The reason why Google is getting regulated by either the start screen in the EU or in the USA is because of their dominance on the smartphone & no matter what any company does they will not be able to dislodge them at this time because of it.

 

[I7guy]

If the DMA is a competition killer as you say then can you point to any other country in the world that has a mobile operating system that competes with Apple & Google?

They are mutually exclusive. That the DMA is a competition killer is not relevant to that consumers didn’t take to windows operating system on a smartphone. But what the DMA does guarantee is that today Microsoft wouldn’t give the EU another shot at a smartphone.

The reason why Google is getting regulated by either the start screen in the EU or in the USA is because of their dominance on the smartphone & no matter what any company does they will not be able to dislodge them at this time because of it.

Google is extremely popular and that popularity is not why it’s being regulated in the US and the DMA is just a ****-show all of it’s own.

 

[Stuwil]

They are mutually exclusive. That the DMA is a competition killer is not relevant to that consumers didn’t take to windows operating system on a smartphone. But what the DMA does guarantee is that today Microsoft wouldn’t give the EU another shot at a smartphone.

Google is extremely popular and that popularity is not why it’s being regulated in the US and the DMA is just a ****-show all of its own.

How can the DMA be a competition killer as you claim
When the DMA doesn’t exist in other countries yet there is no competition to
iOS or android can you name any competitors to them in mobile?

So how do you know it will be a killer have you got evidence to suggest otherwise

The reason why there is now a start screen in the EU is because they want to give consumers a choice because of Google’s dominance
And it’s the reason why one of the options muted in the us is potentially wanting Google & chrome to separate because of the dominance

 

[surferfb]

I’ve been very clear in china they are fighting between 2nd & 3rd place because they have actually got competition out there.

Again, that doesn't agree with the facts on the ground. Apple doesn't reach the majority of the Chinese market because they are too expensive and the government is actively promoting using its competitors as a point of national pride. It has nothing to do with the fact that there is "competition."

Regarding your multiple os’s out there that’s because it’s only in one location that they are competing against 2 other mobile operating systems it would be a different story if it was world wide

And again that’s not going to happen anytime soon because the only competition in the world for Apple & Google is in china

And why are you arguing that Apple and Google don't compete against each other? And if I'm wrong and you are right and the "innovation" of the additional competition in China is why Apple is fighting for second place, what is your explanation for why that isn't forcing Apple to up its game? Again, China is its second-most important market. Shipment misses in China directly correlate to lower stock prices. So if you are correct and Apple is losing out because their products are worse there compared to the competition, why aren't they doing anything about it?

 

[I7guy]

How can the DMA be a competition killer as you claim
When the DMA doesn’t exist in other countries yet there is no competition to
iOS or android can you name any competitors to them in mobile?

The DMA imposes a regulatory burden so heavy imo I can’t see any major outside company wanting to do business in their EU.

So how do you know it will be a killer have you got evidence to suggest otherwise

The reason why there is now a start screen in the EU is because they want to give consumers a choice because of Google’s dominance

Google has 96% of the market today. And they didn’t get there by quashing the competition illegally. They got there through innovation. In other words they earned it. This “choice” the EU mandates is lipstick on a pig and benefits no one and google will win anyway.

And it’s the reason why one of the options muted in the us is potentially wanting Google & chrome to separate because of the dominance