EU to Close Antitrust Investigation into Apple's Browser Choice Screen

[surferfb]

Right however if we are basing it on that logic then how is any search engine supposed to compete with google if it’s the default one & it’s buried within the settings app that the general public doesn’t even know where it is.

I mean search is already dying. By the time my 3 year old is old enough to use a computer, I if he ever uses Google it'll be once in a blue moon. That's not to say that some people won't use it, but it won't be the dominant way to find information on the internet.

Yet as I said before if there is an option at the start then you might end up picking chrome

But it’s generally not about current users it’s about new consumers so that maybe they pick another option then it turns out to be good then they tell others who then try it.

While that's a nice thought, I think it's much more likely people pick another option, not realizing what they're doing, and then wonder where the iPhone's normal internet browser went, wonder why it changed, and then complain to/about Apple for something the EU made Apple do. All while the new internet browser hoovers up their private data to sell to advertisers.

So glad the EU is looking out for its citizens!

 

[cocky jeremy]

Right however if we are basing it on that logic then how is any search engine supposed to compete with google if it’s the default one & it’s buried within the settings app that the general public doesn’t even know where it is.

Yet as I said before if there is an option at the start then you might end up picking chrome

But it’s generally not about current users it’s about new consumers so that maybe they pick another option then it turns out to be good then they tell others who then try it.

Just because something has been the status quo for decades doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be challenged & by doing this it means that other companies have no excuse but to improve their product

The same way Apple competed when huge phone brands when they first got into phones... by being better.

 

[Stuwil]

I mean search is already dying. By the time my 3 year old is old enough to use a computer, I if he ever uses Google it'll be once in a blue moon. That's not to say that some people won't use it, but it won't be the dominant way to find information on the internet.


While that's a nice thought, I think it's much more likely people pick another option, not realizing what they're doing, and then wonder where the iPhone's normal internet browser went, wonder why it changed, and then complain to/about Apple for something the EU made Apple do. All while the new internet browser hoovers up their private data to sell to advertisers.

So glad the EU is looking out for its citizens!

So your ok with google being a monopoly on search then?

Because fundamentally most people when they get their first iPhone they don’t know any better & just leave the search engine as is.

 

[Stuwil]

The same way Apple competed when huge phone brands when they first got into phones... by being better.

Yes but there is a BIG difference in that google chrome is being seen as a monopoly because they have been allowed from before the smartphone era to suddenly being the default search engine on most consumers mobiles.
So that in turn has given them an advantage over every competitor they have ever faced because let’s face it
When most people first get an iPhone they don’t change the search engine because that’s not something most people do & as a consequence of that google has been allowed to dominate the market.

So I’m all in favor of giving people a choice because that’s how competition should be

 

[surferfb]

So your ok with google being a monopoly on search then?

I agree Google has a monopoly on search, and support efforts to make sure they are playing fairly (such as banning the ability for them to pay Apple to be the default). But I think Apple should still be able to make Google the default if they want because they think it's the best option for their users.

Because fundamentally most people when they get their first iPhone they don’t know any better & just leave the search engine as is.

Agree with that 100%. But I also think the correct answer is that Apple should have the default search engine be the best one for the most number of its users. I think if people want to switch search engines they have the ability to do so. I completely understand most people won't, and I think that is fine, because I've used all the major search engines and think Google is by far the best free option.

 

[Stuwil]

I agree Google has a monopoly on search, and support efforts to make sure they are playing fairly (such as banning the ability for them to pay Apple to be the default). But I think Apple should still be able to make Google the default if they want because they think it's the best option for their users.


Agree with that 100%. But I also think the correct answer is that Apple should have the default search engine be the best one for the most number of its users. I think if people want to switch search engines they have the ability to do so. I completely understand most people won't, and I think that is fine, because I've used all the major search engines and think Google is by far the best free option.

The only way to stop a monopoly is to put regulation in its way because they are so dominant that the situation won’t change if it’s allowed to carry on as is.

Now you could argue that it’s up to the competition to get better & in one aspect you would be right
However if there are roadblocks in the way for google to continue their dominance then nobody will make a dent in their market share no matter how good other companies products are

 

[CarAnalogy]

Thank you! I have primarily used Ghostery.

FWIW I wouldn't recommend setting this up just for ad blocking, but I run pi-hole on a home server and don't experience any of your reddit issues. If you have an always-on computer somewhere it might be worth investigating.

Or NextDNS (nextdns.io) which works similarly and which I also use but forgot to mention.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Yes but there is a BIG difference in that google chrome is being seen as a monopoly because they have been allowed from before the smartphone era to suddenly being the default search engine on most consumers mobiles.
So that in turn has given them an advantage over every competitor they have ever faced because let’s face it
When most people first get an iPhone they don’t change the search engine because that’s not something most people do & as a consequence of that google has been allowed to dominate the market.

So I’m all in favor of giving people a choice because that’s how competition should be

But the reason most people leave the default search engine is because the default search engine is Google. Make it something else and far more people are changing the default search engine.

 

[Stuwil]

But the reason most people leave the default search engine is because the default search engine is Google. Make it something else and far more people are changing the default search engine.

No because most people when they get their first iPhone they don’t bother changing it because it’s not something they actually think about & it’s just escalated from there over the years.

I have personally help hundreds of people setup their first iPhone & I can guarantee you not one person has ever asked about changing the search engine because it’s not something most actually think about when they get their first iPhone

 

[surferfb]

No because most people when they get their first iPhone they don’t bother changing it because it’s not something they actually think about & it’s just escalated from there over the years.

I have personally help hundreds of people setup their first iPhone & I can guarantee you not one person has ever asked about changing the search engine because it’s not something most actually think about when they get their first iPhone

Yes, but if the default search engine is Bing, and people are unhappy with the results, I suspect they'll look for how to change the default.

I also suspect if you gave people a "search engine choice" screen like the browser choice screen, 95%+ of people would select Google. The reason Google has a monopoly is because it's the best (free) search engine, and by a lot. I mean, their brand name turned into the word for "search the web for".

I am fully in support of regulation to make sure it behaves in a competitive manner because (unlike Apple in mobile platforms) Google is a monopoly in search. So it should be restricted from doing things like paying Apple to be the default, buying upstart competitors and the like. But I don't think any of that is going to change Google being the best option for the vast, vast majority of people. What does have the ability to change that is people using AI rather than searching at all. That is where regulators should be focusing, not what default search iPhone uses.

 

[Stuwil]

Yes, but if the default search engine is Bing, and people are unhappy with the results, I suspect they'll look for how to change the default.

I also suspect if you gave people a "search engine choice" screen like the browser choice screen, 95%+ of people would select Google. The reason Google has a monopoly is because it's the best (free) search engine, and by a lot. I mean, their brand name turned into the word for "search the web for".

I am fully in support of regulation to make sure it behaves in a competitive manner because (unlike Apple in mobile platforms) Google is a monopoly in search. So it should be restricted from doing things like paying Apple to be the default, buying upstart competitors and the like. But I don't think any of that is going to change Google being the best option for the vast, vast majority of people. What does have the ability to change that is people using AI rather than searching at all. That is where regulators should be focusing, not what default search iPhone uses.

That’s because google has been allowed to become dominant by being the default search engine on both iOS & android so basically since 2007 they have had a consistent flow of traffic using their product so it’s naturally built into continue using it.

In regards to bing or any other search engine yes you are right that it’s up to them to make their product good
However even if bing was a good search engine people still wouldn’t change from google being the default because it works & that’s what people are used too so unlikely to change it.

As I said the whole point of the screen at the start is to give people a choice & it’s not buried within the settings app.

Because the EU is treating the iPhone like a standalone device so by doing that they can regulate that the iPhone has a screen at the start that then gives people a choice of what options are available now ultimately 95% of people might still pick chrome however it’s offering people a choice regardless

 

[cocky jeremy]

No because most people when they get their first iPhone they don’t bother changing it because it’s not something they actually think about & it’s just escalated from there over the years.

I have personally help hundreds of people setup their first iPhone & I can guarantee you not one person has ever asked about changing the search engine because it’s not something most actually think about when they get their first iPhone

They'll think about it when they search for something and get **** results. lol.

 

[Stuwil]

They'll think about it when they search for something and get **** results. lol.

Right
So your in favor of google being a monopoly then & no company is allowed to a least be given the chance against them?

 

[surferfb]

Right
So your in favor of google being a monopoly then & no company is allowed to a least be given the chance against them?

I won't speak for @cocky jeremy, but I guess what I am saying is that I don't think changing the default search engine, or making users pick a search engine when setting up their device, is going to change anything about Google being a monopoly.

Even if someone rises up and creates a search product that blows Google out of the water, it wouldn't be because of anything Apple does or doesn't do with regards to iOS. It'll be because they create a new (almost certainly AI-based) product that gets traction with nerds (the type of people who already know how to change their default search engine) on tech enthusiast forums like this one, who then tell their friends about it, who then try it, then tell their friends about it, etc. It won't be because Apple has to present a list of options and have users pick one and all of a sudden people realize one of the other search engines was actually better all along.

So all adding a "search engine selection" screen would do is just add one more annoying step to take when setting up a device. It certainly won't "give companies a chance" to fight against Google.

 

[Stuwil]

I won't speak for @cocky jeremy, but I guess what I am saying is that I don't think changing the default search engine, or making users pick a search engine when setting up their device, is going to change anything about Google being a monopoly.

Even if someone rises up and creates a search product that blows Google out of the water, it wouldn't be because of anything Apple does or doesn't do with regards to iOS. It'll be because they create a new (almost certainly AI-based) product that gets traction with nerds (the type of people who already know how to change their default search engine) on tech enthusiast forums like this one, who then tell their friends about it, who then try it, then tell their friends about it, etc. It won't be because Apple has to present a list of options and have users pick one and all of a sudden people realize one of the other search engines was actually better all along.

So all adding a "search engine selection" screen would do is just add one more annoying step to take when setting up a device. It certainly won't "give companies a chance" to fight against Google.

Right
It’s wildly accepted that google is an monopoly right

So governments can only realistically stop that by regulation
Now you can for example stop Apple from accepting payment from google that’s fine because then it would kind of stop that advantage in one way
So either apple accepts no money & still puts google as default or they go with someone else.

You can then go down the other road & say ok there will be no default engine from the start & the consumer then picks said option
By doing that you are then creating a situation where it’s up to the consumer to choose regardless of who they pick.

I suspect that the governments can’t come out & say you can’t use chrome but what they can do is put barriers in place like what they are doing.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Google is by far the best free option.

The problem with so called ‘good’ search engines, is that the reason people perceive them as good is that when they search, they see what they want to see.
The opposite is true of so called ‘bad’ search engines. People search and never seem to get the ‘right’ answer.

So ‘good’ search engines, Google, Bing etc, allow you to fall unknowingly into a filter bubble, hence why you see what you want to see.
‘Bad’ search engines like DDG (bing) and Starpage (Google) or a meta search engine like Searxng (you can choose) - use exactly the same results as their counterpart, yet you get different results.

So ‘good’ is entirely in the eye of the beholder. I absolutely only use ‘bad’ search engines, because I want none biased none skewed results.

Bad is good and good is bad.

But you’re right. Traditional search is on its way out, AI will become king, and then you’ll just have to deal with what you get told.

 

[surferfb]

The problem with so called ‘good’ search engines, is that the reason people perceive them as good is that when they search, they see what they want to see.
The opposite is true of so called ‘bad’ search engines. People search and never seem to get the ‘right’ answer.

So ‘good’ search engines, Google, Bing etc, allow you to fall unknowingly into a filter bubble, hence why you see what you want to see.
‘Bad’ search engines like DDG (bing) and Starpage (Google) or a meta search engine like Searxng (you can choose) - use exactly the same results as their counterpart, yet you get different results.

So ‘good’ is entirely in the eye of the beholder. I absolutely only use ‘bad’ search engines, because I want none biased none skewed results.

Bad is good and good is bad.

But you’re right. Traditional search is on its way out, AI will become king, and then you’ll just have to deal with what you get told.

That's a really interesting perspective I hadn't considered before. Thanks for sharing!

My initial reaction is I think I see less relevant results with DDG/Bing, and more sites filled with AI-generated garbage, but I'm going to give it a test with this in mind over the next few days.

 

[cupcakes2000]

That's a really interesting perspective I hadn't considered before. Thanks for sharing!

My initial reaction is I think I see less relevant results with DDG/Bing, and more sites filled with AI-generated garbage, but I'm going to give it a test with this in mind over the next few days.

I have spent years testing and deliberating this. Search is a key factor to so called shadow profiles, filter bubbles, and ultimately misinformation. Plus It’s a privacy nightmare.

I host a searx instance, and I will only use google or bing via privacy front ends.

You do need to search more like in the old days, before they suddenly started mysteriously giving you the answer you want to see, but that for me is worth it. I don’t consider the answers that ddg, for example, as bad. I just feel glad it’s not feeding me what I want to see.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Right
So your in favor of google being a monopoly then & no company is allowed to a least be given the chance against them?

Companies have a chance. They just have to make a better product than Google. Apple beat Blackberry when Blackberry was the default choice for a "smart" phone.

 

[Stuwil]

Companies have a chance. They just have to make a better product than Google. Apple beat Blackberry when Blackberry was the default choice for a "smart" phone.

Right
how do you beat google to search when it is almost the default search engine on practically every smartphone in the west.

Hence why the regulation is getting or being implemented to try & stop that

 

[John_Blackthorne]

FWIW I wouldn't recommend setting this up just for ad blocking, but I run pi-hole on a home server and don't experience any of your reddit issues. If you have an always-on computer somewhere it might be worth investigating.

My M2 Studio is always on. I travel with an M3 16 inch Pro. Def will look into it. I should use a desktop for more desktopy things.

 

[TgeekB]

Right
It’s wildly accepted that google is an monopoly right

So governments can only realistically stop that by regulation
Now you can for example stop Apple from accepting payment from google that’s fine because then it would kind of stop that advantage in one way
So either apple accepts no money & still puts google as default or they go with someone else.

You can then go down the other road & say ok there will be no default engine from the start & the consumer then picks said option
By doing that you are then creating a situation where it’s up to the consumer to choose regardless of who they pick.

I suspect that the governments can’t come out & say you can’t use chrome but what they can do is put barriers in place like what they are doing.

Big government is not the answer.

 

[TgeekB]

Companies have a chance. They just have to make a better product than Google. Apple beat Blackberry when Blackberry was the default choice for a "smart" phone.

Exactly, it’s no different. BlackBerry owned the smartphone market. There was no other choice…..until Apple made a more popular product. Let the market work things out, not government regulation. Have we not learned anything from the past?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Right but every western country is relying on Asia for most of the hardware including America
In regards to mobile OS’s then every continent apart from Asia relies on just 2 companies for their mobile OS
So it’s not just a European problem

The dma only exists because there are only 2 mobile OS’s that’s why but if there was a 3rd option with a substantial customer base that exists in Asia & not restricted then there would be no dma because then there would be 3 big options to choose from

The EU is relying on Asia for mobile hardware and, interestingly enough, the EU is not penalizing Foxconn for their ACTUAL monopoly on mobile hardware in the EU. So, we know the EU isn’t REALLY concerned about monopolies.

The DMA is primarily concerned with attempting to reduce the profits of companies like Apple (Vestager’s referred to this) and they were hoping that they could redirect those profits to the EU. It has zero to do with the number of mobile OS’s because if it did, the legislation would take steps to INCREASE the number of OS’s, not solidify the position of those two mobile OS’s.

 

[Stuwil]

The EU is relying on Asia for mobile hardware and, interestingly enough, the EU is not penalizing Foxconn for their ACTUAL monopoly on mobile hardware in the EU. So, we know the EU isn’t REALLY concerned about monopolies.

The DMA is primarily concerned with attempting to reduce the profits of companies like Apple (Vestager’s referred to this) and they were hoping that they could redirect those profits to the EU. It has zero to do with the number of mobile OS’s because if it did, the legislation would take steps to INCREASE the number of OS’s, not solidify the position of those two mobile OS’s.

Foxconn don’t sell products in the EU for a start so you will find that is the reason why they are not regulating them.

It’s very simple they are treating IOS as a standalone platform so when they are regulating it it’s far easier to justify it
It’s not about redirecting profits to the EU

Let’s look at your comment about 2 OS
It’s practically not achievable in the west
Because of financial reasons & developers
Plus on a side note you don’t really want a third os for the ability to move to it