Former Shake Product Designer: Apple Doesn't Care About Pro Market

[gorgeousninja]

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In the end, he says "your heart will be broken. Because they're not reliant on you."

That's all that needs to be said.

Been feeling that since they ditched matte screens in 2007. Lion just reiterates his point by making OSX more "consumery".

I can foresee many professional creatives migrating back to windows within the next year or two once it's painfully obvious (and somehow it isn't yet) that Apple has moved on quite some time ago.

Don't really see a link between creative profesionals and windows... never has been.

 

[z3r0]

I would go with one of these with FreeBSD

Can you show which is the XServer substitute?

 

[Oletros]

You didn't ask me for FCPX tape export, you asked me for alternatives.

Please ask your questions more accurately.

Please, read the conversation before saying nothing

 

[KnightWRX]

I would go with one of these with FreeBSD

How does that provide a proper server to run OS X server on though ? Your suggestion is basically : "forgoe Apple and switch vendors", something enterprise IT learned a long time ago (and any hold outs found out back in November last year) and something that video editors are learning now.

And if you're buying Oracle hardware, might as well run Solaris, much better than FreeBSD and at least supported by a vendor when something goes south.

 

[Oletros]

Don't really see a link between creative profesionals and windows... never has been.

I suppose that those things only are to beginning a flame war, that they aren't believed.

 

[zephonic]

Not sure what the beef is?

I worked in post for a long time and rarely saw FCP in that field. All the pros used Avid or Media 100 and dismissed FCP as "good only for wedding vids".

I have been out of it for 3 years, but did FCP really gain enough momentum and critical mass to become the new industry-standard?

I don't know about Industry Standard but it's been used for more than just wedding videos.

Fair enough, but if that is a list of all the movies edited with FCP then it's just a drop in the bucket. Hollywood does about 600 movies per year AFAIK.

Not to discredit FCP, but I hardly ever saw it being used by top-tier post facilities. That could easily be attributed to inertia, but if Apple failed to really penetrate that market over the last decade I can understand why they wouldn't bother with FCPX.

 

[deconstruct60]

Lion adds Launchpad, but it doesn't take away other methods of launching apps. The Mac App Store is a great idea, but they don't prohibit you from installing apps through other means. Same for everything in Lion - there are new ways to do things, but it is 99% optional or IN ADDITION to pre-existing features.

Lion is also not a complete rewrite or Mac OS X either. A slightly better analogy would be between Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X 10.0 (or perhaps better still the public beta but that isn't quite fair.). Probably a better one would be between Newton OS and iOS .

There are three basic ways Apple could do a rewrite transition.

1. Long break. Stop FCP 7 and then do nothing until completed all of the features of FCP 7 plus all the new ones before releases. [ Anyone who has "pro" experience in software development knows these sorts of projects have higher than average failure rates and/or the gaps is very long (like Newton -> iOS ). ]

2. Indecision. Keep FCP 7 code line alive while try to duplicate it. Again leads to longer development and also competing resources. Often the legacy product kills off the newborn before it has a chance. Other times customers get confused as to which one really betting and just go to someone else with more singular focus. This also tends to indicate willing to entertain a debate with the customers as to which codeline is the future.


3. "All in " option. You bet the farm on the newer version while also being realistic as to how quickly can grow out the feature set. If don't grow it out fast enough will loose the mid-range adopters as they make their scheduled upgrade projects. Same issue as the late adopters make their transitions. However, in the initial phases as long as the early adopters are happy that is primary key indicator of success. This approach tends to work better when the target model is changing anyway (e.g., most production shifting to fragments of already digitized, random access, shorter segments rather than sequential access longer segments. )


Apple has lots of cash in reserve so they have chosen option 3. It is higher risk but also higher reward if pull it off correctly. Some of folks are moaning because they wanted to follow the minimal risk strategy. It isn't their call... they don't own the software.

 

[Reach]

Fair enough, but if that is a list of all the movies edited with FCP then it's just a drop in the bucket. Hollywood does about 600 movies per year AFAIK.

Not to discredit FCP, but I hardly ever saw it being used by top-tier post facilities. That could easily be attributed to inertia, but if Apple failed to really penetrate that market over the last decade I can understand why they wouldn't bother with FCPX.

Good point! A lot of Apple/FCP-fans are probably under the impression that FCP is used far more than it really is at the very high end of the feature-industry.

 

[mBox]

Uh...Steve says the same thing every keynote: We want to enable the masses to create their own content.

Are the declarations of a focus on the average joe not clear enough?

I dont know how you got a negative on this statement. If the company doesn't want to focus on the professional side, should they be chastised? I mean I work in this field and Im just happy that they made a computer that can handle the other "pro" apps e.g Avid MC, AdobeCS, Autodesk Maya/Smoke/AutoCAD, etc...
When Apple decides to move right out of the pro side such as kill off Mac Pro, then so be it. Its just business folks. Its not personal.
Im glad I spent my 300 bucks on a piece of software that might have some use in my studio. Ive seen worse purchases at the five digit range that collect dust after a year here

 

[jeab]

I'm not a pro. I'm a jolly amateur, a prosumer, or whatever. And yes, I cut my own wedding video, and I make videos from my holidays. I used iMovie for some years, but for my wedding I used FCE, and I have kept using FCE since. Please don't laugh at me.

FCPX has a magnetic timeline and no tracks, I've been told. There is no way that I could have cut my wedding video with FCPX. I needed V1 for camera 1, V2 for camera 2, V3 for camera 3, V4 for camera 4 and V5 for titles. Anything else would just have been messy in my case.

I also needed V6, V7, V8 and V9 to make some amateur tricks to compensate for problems in the source footage from camera 4. I needed A9/A10 for external sound source #1 and A11/A12 for external sound source #2. And all the waveforms were next to eachother, how convenient.

No, I didn't have to export separate (video or audio) tracks to send them downstream in some sort of collective workflow, I just needed those tracks to get my own amateur job done without losing track of all the details.

Oh, and bins. Not tags, bins. I always knew what had been sorted and what had not been sorted. And sequences. And nested sequences.

I just edited a video from a dinner where the light conditions were difficult. I'm not a professional colour corrector person, but hey, does Apple really want me to slice my cuts and make transitions between the colour corrected slices when even FCE can keyframe just about everything?

Persistent in and out points. Need I say more.

Even I, a FCE amateur with a single license and no huge investments, see FCPX as a downgrade. I can only guess (and read) how the pros feel.

Sorry I used so many words. Now you may laugh.

 

[samcraig]

If Apple didn't want Pro's to weigh in/comment/complain/write about FCPX - then they shouldn't have released it as is.

Since Apple is selling the software to the public - anyone/everyone is entitled to comment on it.

So complain about the complainers or whitewash the release all you want.

 

[mBox]

FCPX has a magnetic timeline and no tracks, I've been told. There is no way that I could have cut my wedding video with FCPX. I needed V1 for camera 1, V2 for camera 2, V3 for camera 3, V4 for camera 4 and V5 for titles. Anything else would just have been messy in my case....

Brother you would have learned FCPX faster and been more productive if you cut that much footage in it Trust me, Im working with FCPX now. You could easily do all that. Give it a try.

 

[Reach]

I'm not a pro. I'm a jolly amateur, a prosumer, or whatever. And yes, I cut my own wedding video, and I make videos from my holidays. I used iMovie for some years, but for my wedding I used FCE, and I have kept using FCE since. Please don't laugh at me.

FCPX has a magnetic timeline and no tracks, I've been told. There is no way that I could have cut my wedding video with FCPX. I needed V1 for camera 1, V2 for camera 2, V3 for camera 3, V4 for camera 4 and V5 for titles. Anything else would just have been messy in my case.

I also needed V6, V7, V8 and V9 to make some amateur tricks to compensate for problems in the source footage from camera 4. I needed A9/A10 for external sound source #1 and A11/A12 for external sound source #2. And all the waveforms were next to eachother, how convenient.

No, I didn't have to export separate (video or audio) tracks to send them downstream in some sort of collective workflow, I just needed those tracks to get my own amateur job done without losing track of all the details.

Oh, and bins. Not tags, bins. I always knew what had been sorted and what had not been sorted. And sequences. And nested sequences.

I just edited a video from a dinner where the light conditions were difficult. I'm not a professional colour corrector person, but hey, does Apple really want me to slice my cuts and make transitions between the colour corrected slices when even FCE can keyframe just about everything?

Persistent in and out points. Need I say more.

Even I, a FCE amateur with a single license and no huge investments, see FCPX as a downgrade. I can only guess (and read) how the pros feel.

Sorry I used so many words. Now you may laugh.

This to me smells a lot like someone going into FCP X with the mindset that he already knows FCP and will go straight to work.

Have you watched any of the training videos etc., or really tried to study how this application works, instead of cursing when it doesn't work like the old one?

Not trying to be rude, that's just what it sounds like to me. And I recognize it from me first opening FCP X. Seeing that it all felt a little confusing, I've decided to actually try to learn how to use it properly. Many of the people that have gone about it this way claim it's actually pretty nice, so I think it's worth a shot.

 

[jonnysods]

They are not reliant on you. This speaks of doom for the Mac Pro to me.

That's sad. I was drawn to Apple because of their high end software. Still love them, but I'm scared that I'm going to end up with a 27" iPad on my desk one day.

 

[milo]

Sadly, he's probably right.

I just hope they don't do an "upgrade" like this for Logic. It's still a decent app, but a change like this would push many users to move to alternatives (and as he said, apple probably wouldn't care).

Along the same lines, it calls their commitment to the mac pro into question as well.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Wow, you aren't very learned in video formats and workflows.

Tron: Legacy and Avatar (like many Sony F23 and F35 productions) were shot at 880Mbit/s on HDCAM SR tape. At a (virtually) uncompressed 4:4:4 chroma-subsampling.

That's right.... on tape. A tape that holds hundreds of gigabytes and provides production houses with an archivable, digital negative.

Yup... sounds really dinosauric.

Neither Movie utilized FCP 7 during the making of these films.

 

[dazzer21]

Well - I guess that's why there have been no real movements in the Mac Pro upgrades, and why their top-of-the-range 'prosumer' iMac is the fastest thing they make... top-end doesn't matter any more. Which is a shame. It was good to look upon Macs as being true 'cutting edge' kit. Oh well - I suppose that bragging rights no longer apply.

 

[hayesk]

This guy is right, but he forgets one thing:

These pros have egos as big, if not bigger, than Steve Jobs. And they don't want to change their old ways because someone else suggested that a new way might be better.

That's why hearts will be broken - Apple won't bend to the pros and any more. To that I say, boo hoo! Real pros will evaluate the product properly based on what it can do now, and its potential, not how well their ego gets stroked.

Look what happened when they reduced the price of WebObjects. No code was changed, but overnight, Enterprise all of a sudden determined it wasn't a pro tool because it no longer cost $50,000 per seat, and interest plummeted. I saw similar complaints when Apple reduced the price of Shake. Ego got in the way of common sense. I can't blame Apple for not wanting to serve these people. I wouldn't want to have to deal with these customers either.

When people say Apple doesn't want to serve the pro market anymore, they're only partially right. Apple doesn't want to serve those with old-fashioned and out-dated ways that refuse to change. Apple wants to the freedom to innovate - and that often requires dumping the old way of doing things to make the new way successful.

 

[toxotis70]

I'm not a pro. I'm a jolly amateur, a prosumer, or whatever. And yes, I cut my own wedding video, and I make videos from my holidays. I used iMovie for some years, but for my wedding I used FCE, and I have kept using FCE since. Please don't laugh at me.

FCPX has a magnetic timeline and no tracks, I've been told. There is no way that I could have cut my wedding video with FCPX. I needed V1 for camera 1, V2 for camera 2, V3 for camera 3, V4 for camera 4 and V5 for titles. Anything else would just have been messy in my case.

I also needed V6, V7, V8 and V9 to make some amateur tricks to compensate for problems in the source footage from camera 4. I needed A9/A10 for external sound source #1 and A11/A12 for external sound source #2. And all the waveforms were next to eachother, how convenient.

No, I didn't have to export separate (video or audio) tracks to send them downstream in some sort of collective workflow, I just needed those tracks to get my own amateur job done without losing track of all the details.

Oh, and bins. Not tags, bins. I always knew what had been sorted and what had not been sorted. And sequences. And nested sequences.

I just edited a video from a dinner where the light conditions were difficult. I'm not a professional colour corrector person, but hey, does Apple really want me to slice my cuts and make transitions between the colour corrected slices when even FCE can keyframe just about everything?

Persistent in and out points. Need I say more.

Even I, a FCE amateur with a single license and no huge investments, see FCPX as a downgrade. I can only guess (and read) how the pros feel.

Sorry I used so many words. Now you may laugh.

If you want to edit like before, then FCPX is not for you... thats not a bad thing.
But for all of us , Pros or not , who want something different, easier, faster, cheaper etc... FCPX is an opportunity !

For example, you can have Persistent in and out points , indeed you have more in-outs points available... just press F and have it as Favorite.

You can have as many Favorites (in-out) as you want.

You can see them marked with color , in upper part of your video clip, or select any of them by click on the keyword ...
There are many workarounds for other things too... but you have to be open mind and think different (if you like).

 

[scoobydoo99]

Product Placement

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but one possible drawback to ignoring the pro video editing market (i.e. Hollywood) is a reduction in the industry's affinity for Apple hardware. Apple has consistently been over-represented in movies and TV shows, relative to market share. With roughly 10% market share, Apple has enjoyed a roughly 50% visibility in movies and TV, due partly to the fact that nearly everyone in Hollywood uses Apples professionally (and often personally). Heck, it was even a PowerBook that uploaded the virus to the alien ship and saved the world in Independence Day!) Of course, Apple often pays for product placement, but this is usually not in cash, but in "free" hardware given to studios. Other times, producers use Apple products (without compensation) in the background in various scenes because they look modern and attractive or because they convey a "hipness" to a show.

SO, if Hollywood begins to migrate away from Apple products professionally (due to FCP X), will they be less likely to promote Apple's image in film and television entertainment?

 

[MorphingDragon]

I would go with one of these with FreeBSD

Why oracle equipment? If youŕe going to buy overpriced equipment, why not go all the way and get IBM? (Big fan of their blades though)

And if you're buying Oracle hardware, might as well run Solaris, much better than FreeBSD and at least supported by a vendor when something goes south.

Completely avoiding Solaris vs BSD Unix arguments.

Though why would you need tech support? I thought enterprise grade OSes were perfect, never failed and ran on pixie dust. Well... at least according to Microsoft Server advertising.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

It was those same "Pro's", whether it be film, graphic design etc, that helped to keep this company going when it was about to go down the sewer. If it hadn't been for them Apple would not exist.

They have a right to complain, they have been shafted because Steve Job's ego gets in the way. When it goes wrong next time they won't be there to keep the money going into the Apple coffers. The millions of fad followers certainly wont be spending $10,000s of dollars on Apple machine will they.

No the Pros weren't keeping Apple afloat. Those Pros were part of the massively differentiated product chart that Steve consolidated into 4 major products back in 1998 and subsequent introduction of the iMac.

Just call me one of those Evil NeXT employees who came with Steve and flushed all the cruft down the drain. Steve focused on the Consumer, not the Prosumer and has done so for 13 straight years quite successfully.

The Pro market accounts for < 3% of Apple's bottom line, if that. Apple was drowning when Steve was put in charge and Amelio was running the ship. No amount of Professional group would ever save Apple. The volume had to come from the consumer markets and that's the reason Steve abandoned several ideas [one of those ideas was to sell systems of world class UNIX Hardware that competed against SUN Servers, HP and IBM housing 30+ CPUs in big iron--internal discussion reference].

The fact that Apple has taken over 2 new markets and continues to expand their leadership roles in them will only bode well for the Professional markets.

Perhaps it's just me but I don't seem to see a lot of chit chat about OS X Lion and how it's going to make your life far easier and 3rd party developers making those necessary plugins a huge sigh of relief with how many advances will be ready for 10.7.

This new Code base takes full advantage of what is in 10.7. Enjoy it and you will be stunned on how both 10.7 and iOS 5 have dramatically improved over 10.6 and iOS 4.

The legacy of GCC for Developers is done with the emergence of 10.7 and iOS 5. What's old is new again with Services, system-wide and the emergence of LLVM across the board with all those new APIs, ARC and MC-JIT will suddenly see your system get far greater mileage out of it than when it was using 10.6.x.

But, far be it for me to stop everyone stomping their feet loudly and speaking as if Apple betrayed them.

 

[i.mac]

Apple doesn't care about pro users, yet their computers (and every other product) is overpriced....At least spec-wise

Easy solution? Vote with your walet and Don't buy every other apple product...

 

[njloof]

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I wish Apple would buy Autodesk Maya, strip out half the guff, and turn it into something highly intuitive and usable.

Yeah, ha ha, funny you should mention Maya. We had pretty much the same conversation a decade ago with A|W about how Maya was not going to focus their feature development on "pro" users anymore. They've done a great job of ignoring that market over the past decade, while using the imagery produced by the "pros" to continue to market their tools.

 

[i.mac]

Brother you would have learned FCPX faster and been more productive if you cut that much footage in it Trust me, Im working with FCPX now. You could easily do all that. Give it a try.

Why give it a try? That means work and adapt... It is much easier to complain...