Thanks. I thought this might be a long debate, but when you're so clearly being disingenuous I can save myself the trouble.
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French Court Levies Fine Against Apple for Abusive App Store Practices
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Thanks. I thought this might be a long debate, but when you're so clearly being disingenuous I can save myself the trouble.
You don't believe it, but it's Truth. Tim Sweeney visited Korea last year and interviewed the Korean media. He argued that Apple and Google should not receive any commission. He said that Apple and Google should offer the App Store for free.
Q. 구글이 최근 개발사 자체 결제수단을 허용하고, 수수료율을 30%에서 26%로 낮췄는데.
A. “아무것도 안 하고 수수료 26%를 가져가는 것은 말이 안 된다. 0%여야 한다. 애플·구글은 개발자와 소비자가 직접 의사소통하지 못하게 막고 앱 가격을 높이도록 유도하고 있다. 개발사들은 손익분기점을 넘기기 위해 원래 가격에 30%를 더 붙여야 한다. 디지털 경제 자체가 생존할 수 없는 구조다.”
(The article was translated through Google Translator.)
Q. Google recently allowed developers to make their own payments and lowered the commission rate from 30% to 26%.
A. "It doesn't make sense to take 26% of the fee without doing anything. It should be 0%. Apple and Google are preventing developers and consumers from communicating directly and encouraging them to increase app prices. Developers have to add 30 percent more to their original prices to break even. The digital economy itself is a structure that cannot survive."
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How is it more "open"? You can get all the main apps on every app store on every device. If you're after niche apps that Apple hasn't allowed onto the App Store and they're available on other stores, then yes that's a bit more open. "Open" doesn't mean bypassing standard restrictions of an operating system, like using private APIs.
Without jailbreaking, any third party app stores are going to be restricted to using the frameworks that are available for every other app store, including Apple's own App Store. So you might be able to download Fortnite (and give money to a company that was just fined $520mn for breaching child privacy laws), but it was kicked off the App Store for a reason. Great, go and download it from App Store B, and play it. Nothing's changed; you've just let a dodgy company get an app back on your phone. WINNING.
Currently, with Apple's App Store, the automated review will stop you from using private frameworks and APIs because they could change and cause problems later on for the consumer. There is also a manual review for all new apps, and most updates to apps (unless it's a really minor change that an automated pass would pick up).
For Android, does every app store perform the same checks, or do they just allow anything on? If Apple opens up to allowing other app stores will those stores perform rigorous checks to ensure iPhones don't get malware on them?
If any piece of malware gets onto the App Store, Apple have the means to revoke its certificate so that the app cannot run and cannot cause the consumer any issues. What happens in third party stores? Would they host the app and then get reports from users that there's a scam app on their store? Would they then have the ability to stop it functioning, or would they have to tell Apple? I really doubt Apple would open up the developer side of things to all and sundry, so any certificate revoking would likely have to be done at Apple's end, and there would be a delay from a third party store telling Apple to revoke an app's certificate.
It's going to be a mess. There are massive technical hurdles to overcome - hurdles that the layman doesn't understand. And I doubt the EU understands either.
As an iOS developer, if there's one app store it's easy enough to provide that store with all the info required to sell your app. If there are multiple stores I would need to provide the same information - or slightly different info - for each store. I would need an account on each store. I would need to duplicate my work many times over for the same return.
Look at it this way, as an indie developer, if I sell something for $1 on Apple's App Store I get $0.70 for each sale. What do I get from Company A's app store? Is it going to be $0.80? Great, I made $0.10 per sale but had to expend a lot more time doing things. Also, do I need separate contracts? Tax agreements? Legal agreements? Will there be analytics? Do I get crash reports?
It's way more complex than "Apple should let third party app stores on iOS."
To be true, how many appstores are there in personal computing world? You have to search and find apps / programs from many different sites. In a laptop or desktop you don't have many apps like in a mobile. As far as I know, Android is not so restricted so there are a few appstores. I was using Samsung for many years but I never bought any app from their App store.
Even If Apple let iphone to be open for other app stores, +90% of users gonna stiil use Apple’s store. Appstore isn't perfect but I still feel more secure to download from there than from a store owned by an unknown company.
Even If Apple let iphone to be open for other app stores, +90% of users gonna stiil use Apple’s store. Appstore isn't perfect but I still feel more secure to download from there than from a store owned by an unknown company.
Yeah he's specifically talking about them taking 26% when they aren't even processing the payment and preventing linking to an external site.
Earlier in the interview he says
"Apple and Google take a high fee of 30% of the consumer payment. What companies charge that much for a service they don't provide? Of course, any store can charge as much commission as the payment processing company wants. What matters is competition. However, here (app market), instead of competition, there is a monopoly. Competition lowers commissions. Paypal, Visa, and MasterCard payment fees are 3-4%.”
I'm not particularly cosigning all of Sweeneys arguments fwiw, the bolded bit is absolutely correct though.
How does that comparison make sense? Competition didn’t lower those payment fees.
What Sweeney is doing is trying to frame Apple’s commission as equivalent to those credit card fees. It’s disingenuous considering that he is well aware of platform fees as a game developer. And Apple’s 15-30% is quite normal for platform fees.
Yes it's me being disingenuous when you cited your own usage (out of billions of active users) as proof that Apple users don't care the most about third party apps.
Instagram, Tik Tok, Facebook et al are where a huge amount of those iOS user spend their time. Apple didn't build that userbase without them.
On platforms where the hardware is subsidised. Not sold at 40% margins like iOS devices are.
People keep trotting out this argument like it means something. Why does the profit margin on the device matter to the discussion?
When is a fine a permission? When the sum of the penalty is Apple's coffee budget for the next 4 seconds.
They have made their money selling the device, mandating what a user can do with it and inserting themselves into the relationship third party devs have with their customers while insisting that they use their payment methods whether they want or need to is a bit too far and exactly why they have attracted so much regulatory scrutiny.
Next five years, Apple cowtows on this wait and see. Europe is just the beginning.
If you really think it should be zero, you really should develop your own phone and os
Well, that goes both ways though: apple could have chosen not to offer their services in France. If they will play in France though, they have to do it according to France's rules on contracts.
The hyperbolic hand-wringing whenever the App Store is discussed really cracks me up. We get lots of nonsense comparisons to brick and mortar retail and their markups. There's endless pearl clutching over the potential for malware. There are more nonsense comparisons to Nintendo or Sony or whatever. There's the childish "go build your own smartphone if you don't like it" sentiment. It's hilarious.
Allowing additional App Stores and side-loading will have no impact on security. Nothing will prevent a user from only using Apple's App Store. Problem solved. Now if a developer decides to take his or her app to another App Store, the user will have to make a decision. Will his or her irrational fear of using a non-Apple App Store win? Only the user can decide. But let's get real. We've all been doing that for decades on the Mac and there isn't a tsunami of malware.
Furthermore, the possibility that someone might download malware isn't MY problem. I don't need Apple or any other entity to nanny me. Besides, there have been repeated cases of scams and apps with malware making it through Apple's review process. This is well documented. So Apple's App Store isn't guaranteed to be free of malware either.
Comparing the iOS market to Nintendo or Sony or Xbox is also a totally specious argument. At this point, iOS is a platform, not a product. When you reach that level of ubiquity, you're going to be scrutinized through a different lens. That's just reality. There should be a different level of scrutiny when billions of people rely on your product.
Personally I don't have a problem with Apple's commission. My problem is with their gatekeeper status. They decide what apps their customers can ultimately use. If the Chinese government tells them to pull thousands of apps from the App Store, they oblige. This is dangerous and, in my opinion, morally unacceptable. Thankfully more and more governments around the world are pushing back on Big Tech Tyranny. No amount of hand-wringing and FUD is going to stop the inevitable dismantling of the App Store monopoly.
Allowing additional App Stores and side-loading will have no impact on security. Nothing will prevent a user from only using Apple's App Store. Problem solved. Now if a developer decides to take his or her app to another App Store, the user will have to make a decision. Will his or her irrational fear of using a non-Apple App Store win? Only the user can decide. But let's get real. We've all been doing that for decades on the Mac and there isn't a tsunami of malware.
Furthermore, the possibility that someone might download malware isn't MY problem. I don't need Apple or any other entity to nanny me. Besides, there have been repeated cases of scams and apps with malware making it through Apple's review process. This is well documented. So Apple's App Store isn't guaranteed to be free of malware either.
Comparing the iOS market to Nintendo or Sony or Xbox is also a totally specious argument. At this point, iOS is a platform, not a product. When you reach that level of ubiquity, you're going to be scrutinized through a different lens. That's just reality. There should be a different level of scrutiny when billions of people rely on your product.
Personally I don't have a problem with Apple's commission. My problem is with their gatekeeper status. They decide what apps their customers can ultimately use. If the Chinese government tells them to pull thousands of apps from the App Store, they oblige. This is dangerous and, in my opinion, morally unacceptable. Thankfully more and more governments around the world are pushing back on Big Tech Tyranny. No amount of hand-wringing and FUD is going to stop the inevitable dismantling of the App Store monopoly.
You’re moving the goalposts all over the place there. The question was “Why does the profit margin on the device matter to the discussion?”
Because it more that subsidises the App Store. 30% is just excessive profiteering, which is fine if you give people the choice, but they don't.
That's why regulators are stepping in to bring it to an end.
The choice is android. If you don’t like Costco, go to Sam’s club.
No the choice is Apple can comply with the laws and regulations in the countries that they trade or they cease trading there.
That's how it works.
You can still go to android; that’s called choice. Or use a flip phone.
That's such a reductive take. iOS is a platform. When you reach that level of ubiquity, you have different responsibilities. Allowing one company to decide what apps billions of users can use, or having the power to flip a switch and silence people is not acceptable. Thankfully many governments have taken notice and Apple's monopoly won't last much longer.