GayWay - the gay and lesbian discussion (aka. Any Gays here?)

[Orlando Furioso]

I hardly feel this way.

Your tone told me otherwise. But, you would know better than I.

I suppose they would react the same to all gay men.

Simply not true.

I really don't think I'd be endangering other gay men, only myself, and very willingly. I'd just be forcing the close minded to confront their insecurities.

I was just putting out some thoughts. I did not mean to suggest you were putting yourself, or others, in harms way. But "forcing the close minded"? I'm afraid you'd probably reinforce their beliefs (you readily, and wrongly, assume they are "insecure").

If they were to try to harm me physically for that, I'd not like it, but it would make my message a thousand more times potent.

that depends on someone's perspective. What exactly is your message?

if they killed me, I'd die a winner.

no, you wouldn't. The days of martyrdom are long gone. Promoting life is the way to go. You are much more useful that way as well.

You're right, it's a bad situation - but sitting meekly to the side isn't going to help anyone.

I never said or alluded to either thing, but I agree with you.

I don't mean to be so antagonizing. It is just that I see this brand of thinking and "activism" a lot in the Bay Area and SF a lot. I've only seen it do more harm than good. It may be safer in larger cities such as this bay area "bubble", but once out 30/40 miles or so, it is a whole new world.

 

[Zaid]

If enough people were a little more militant and overt it would begin to make a difference. Not so really in your face, more 'gay open and proud' I would not like to see anyone truly physically abused to lead to permanent injury including the most uber permanent.
Kevin
aka Grey Beard

I'm a firm believer in this Kevin. I think it's the duty of every gay adult to be out. If it changes attitudes and makes life easier for the next generation of gay kids, then we have to do it. We have to.

If you come out and it turns out that a friend or family member has a gay kid, it makes it that much easier for them. both kids and parents.

The sacrifices that the guys that came out in the 70's and 80's and early 90's made were much greater, but have certainly made the lives of people my age a hell of a lot easier. Kev, Lee, Chip ... thanks guys. I mean that.

 

[Orlando Furioso]

If enough people were a little more militant and overt it would begin to make a difference. Not so really in your face, more 'gay open and proud' I would not like to see anyone truly physically abused to lead to permanent injury including the most uber permanent.
Kevin
aka Grey Beard

Militant? er, why the aggressiveness? I know what you mean though
A presence and pride in oneself is quite effective alone. I find all the bells 'n whistles that comes from the overt displays tend to shroud the real person behind the gay/lesbian man/woman. Further, in some of my friends, I notice their "flair" an overcompensation for their insecurities. As outgoing as they may seem, they actually hiding who they really are. And that, to me, is a damn shame.

 

[leekohler]

I think I need some advice.

I was on a teambuilding excursion with the job on Thursday and Friday. It was fun. We were given tasks as teams in the middle of the forest. It was rainy, muddy, foggy and cold, but still very fun.

On Thursday evening we had a Viking inspired dinner in a longhouse with mutton, reindeer and lots of alcohol. It was delicious. Later in the evening some of us got in an outdoor hot tub. The water was a little bit too hot, so we had to cool down by taking dips in a small ice-covered lake. My closest colleagues know I'm gay. I'm always a little worried how straight guys feel about being in a "locker room situation" with me, but when we were showering off I didn't sense any awkwardness. I had such a good time and felt that us closest colleagues really connected during the two days.

Now that we've returned, I feel almost sad and lonely compared to the good time that I had on the excursion. What worries me is that I may be getting too attached to the people at my workplace, and that I rely too much on my colleagues when it comes to fulfilling my social needs. I even feel some attraction and desire for cuddling in varying degrees. This isn't the first time I've been attracted to straight guys. Usually I'm able to deal with that just fine, but it has been known to complicate matters on occasion. There are no complications at work at the moment, but I am slightly worried and I wonder what I should do about the situation.

Should I welcome the close connection we have at work and count myself lucky for having such a good working environment? I know I would enjoy meeting up more often for social activities with some of my colleagues.

One of my worries is that it's a somewhat of dead end when it comes to romance. Should I let that worry me? And then there's the attraction. I certainly don't want any complications at work. Actually, none are boyfriend material or anything like that, so I'm not so worried about the attraction as I am the desire to cuddle.

Any advice is welcome.

Zaid, if I remember correctly, you brought up a similar issue. I'm trying to find the post, but I'm failing. Maybe you have some further insights on this.

What you lack and need right now is balance. It sounds to me like you do indeed rely too much on your co-workers for your social life. You need to get out and make more gay friends outside of work. Go ahead, jump in- the water's fine.

Militant? er, why the aggressiveness? I know what you mean though
A presence and pride in oneself is quite effective alone. I find all the bells 'n whistles that comes from the overt displays tend to shroud the real person behind the gay/lesbian man/woman. Further, in some of my friends, I notice their "flair" an overcompensation for their insecurities. As outgoing as they may seem, they actually hiding who they really are. And that, to me, is a damn shame.

Agreed on some points. However, if it weren't for those with "flair", we'd also be nowhere right now. Remember Stonewall?

 

[MontyZ]

I could understand there being awkwardness there, but I'd just talk to my colleague about it and get over the awkward feelings via a good old-fashioned conversation. That's a gross simplification, but I don't think awkwardness has to be there between ex's. I hope there won't be for me. Hopefully I'll never have any to be awkward about .

_Emerson

Have you ever had an ex? Because it's not so simple as you might think.

 

[gekko513]

What you lack and need right now is balance. It sounds to me like you do indeed rely too much on your co-workers for your social life. You need to get out and make more gay friends outside of work. Go ahead, jump in- the water's fine.

Yeah, I also think balance is important and will keep me from getting hung up. Most of my gay friends in Oslo are shared with my ex boyfriend. I do still get along with my ex, but somehow I've still been a bit reluctant to keep in touch with those friends and my ex. I just called one of them and we're going to meet up on Friday. Thanks for the push, lee.

 

[slooksterPSV]

I love it, I post, forget to check back and its 3 pages ago lol.

 

[Grey Beard]

On the workplace romances, they can be somewhat tempestuous and volatile but they can be very intense also. I've had two, and both had problem endings. The first I got fired, the second I did an overdose. Would I do it again ? Damn Right !!!

**Not the overdose though**
Kevin
aka Grey Beard

Yeah, bad form in following my own post - Sorry.

I do believe that I've left out one or two. The one that I really would have worked at (beautiful, blond, blue eyed and the greatest sex and all round Mr Nice Guy) I got a letter from him, saying he wasn't good enough for me and as he'd written from Australia, I guessed he wouldn't be back anytime soon. He's dead now. Another that has fallen to aids. I seem to have lost more than my fair share to that insidious virus.

As an aside: Do you know that the plural of virus isn't virii. Vir, in latin is man, therefore virii is actually 'men'

Kevin
aka Grey Beard

 

[MontyZ]

Anyway, have you considered how these people you readily annoy, make uncomfortable (etc.), by being "super-homo", will react to other (less comfortable, confident) gay men? What about young gay teens not mentally (or even physically) ready to protect themselves?

Im not suggesting you change your behavior, be who you are first and foremost. However, I would advice you stop and think about what you are doing before you proceed to aggravate someone already uncomfortable with gay people/isues. Is making the situation worse helping anything? Is it just to amuse yourself? Is it worth someone else's well-being?

I think I understand your point, which seems to be "don't ask, don't tell," or at least "tell it very quietly if you have to." But until gay people decided to be Out, Loud and Proud, they were arrested just for being gay and forced to stay hidden and lie about their sexuality.

Bigotry and hatred are not eliminated by staying quiet and non-confrontational. The hatred of gay people is based on irrational and unfounded fear in addition to the lies spouted by religious and poltiical leaders. Keeping ones mouth shut will only perpetuate those lies and stereotypes.

Why don't you instead question the motives of someone who would respond with violence just because someone is gay instead of questioning why someone would be open about their sexuality.

 

[Grey Beard]

Yeah, I also think balance is important and will keep me from getting hung up. Most of my gay friends in Oslo are shared with my ex boyfriend. .

Audun, If you were sharing your boyfriend with all of your gay friends, no wonder he's now an ex. On the work/relationship thing, you'll have to balance it on a case by case basis. As I'd said earlier, catch your game where you may, but be prepared for the odd one to bolt from the snare.
Kevin
aka Grey Beard

 

[gekko513]

Audun, If you were sharing your boyfriend with all of your gay friends, no wonder he's now an ex.

Funny

 

[leekohler]

Yeah, I also think balance is important and will keep me from getting hung up. Most of my gay friends in Oslo are shared with my ex boyfriend. I do still get along with my ex, but somehow I've still been a bit reluctant to keep in touch with those friends and my ex. I just called one of them and we're going to meet up on Friday. Thanks for the push, lee.

You're welcome.

I think I understand your point, which seems to be "don't ask, don't tell," or at least "tell it very quietly if you have to." But until gay people decided to be Out, Loud and Proud, they were arrested just for being gay and forced to stay hidden and lie about their sexuality.

Bigotry and hatred are not eliminated by staying quiet and non-confrontational. The hatred of gay people is based on irrational and unfounded fear in addition to the lies spouted by religious and poltiical leaders. Keeping ones mouth shut will only perpetuate those lies and stereotypes.

Why don't you instead question the motives of someone who would respond with violence just because someone is gay instead of questioning why someone would be open about their sexuality.

Bingo. Thanks.

I could understand there being awkwardness there, but I'd just talk to my colleague about it and get over the awkward feelings via a good old-fashioned conversation. That's a gross simplification, but I don't think awkwardness has to be there between ex's. I hope there won't be for me. Hopefully I'll never have any to be awkward about .

_Emerson

Trust me on this one- you don't want to date anyone at work.

 

[iGary]

Trust me on this one- you don't want to date anyone at work.

Roger that.

 

[slooksterPSV]

Roger that.

I agree with that too, even the same exact occupation/career/job can be a bit of a danger zone am I right? ... Let's put to some degree so it may be true.

 

[scem0]

It may not be the ideal environment in which to date someone, but nothing's ever the ideal, unfortunately. All we can do is take what we can get.

_Emerson

 

[scem0]

But "forcing the close minded"? I'm afraid you'd probably reinforce their beliefs (you readily, and wrongly, assume they are "insecure").

In some cases, yes. But history says something otherwise. Even if every gay man was burned at the stake right now, we'd still be winners. We have the sound logic. We have the honesty. I would die a content man. If people don't speak up then we won't have to deal with this.

And I'm not even talking about promoting stereotypes. If my school were homophobic, I would not come to school and speak loudly about the latest episode of Will & Grace, put on my strawberry lip gloss, and then file my nails all class. That's not honest, and honesty is what we need more than anything right now. That doesn't rub homosexuality in their faces, that rubs a stereotype in their face. I'd be feeding the flames, for sure.

I'd be more likely to ask lots of questions about greek homo-eroticism in my art history classes. Such as "Did the homoerotic nature of greek men cause any problems in Greek culture?". The answer is no, and the teacher would have answered as such. Take that you close minded idiots. I'd have a lot of fun during greek and roman art. If I were in a drawing class and the teacher told us to draw something involving the human figure I'd draw two men, etc.

I'm just saying that I'd be tactful about it.

Oh, and I lived in Texas for 18 years. I've met hundred upon hundreds upon hundreds of homophobes, and each and every one of them was insecure.

that depends on someone's perspective. What exactly is your message?

My message - "You close minded idiots have kept enough people in the closet for long enough but there's at least one homo that isn't afraid of you".

no, you wouldn't. The days of martyrdom are long gone. Promoting life is the way to go. You are much more useful that way as well.

Tell Cindy Sheehan this. Her son's death has inspired many right wingers to re-evaluate their stances. Sometimes it takes something extreme to snap someone out of their stupidity. The days of martyrdom will only leave when people stop believing in things! Hopefully that day will never come... As for You are much more useful that way as well - I am completely useless if I'm not willing to fight for my beliefs. If I have to put my beliefs to the side in order to be useful, then I don't want to be useful.

I don't mean to be so antagonizing. It is just that I see this brand of thinking and "activism" a lot in the Bay Area and SF a lot. I've only seen it do more harm than good. It may be safer in larger cities such as this bay area "bubble", but once out 30/40 miles or so, it is a whole new world.

And I'm sorry for being so defensive, but when I care, I care viscously. I was fortunate enough to get a good set of parents. I was raised well enough to associate with a good bunch of friends. But not every one is blessed with such things. We can't accept that! It's not fair, it's not right, and it has to change! I believe firmly in this... And we have to make change happen - it won't happen by itself.

Casey Sheehan and Cindy Sheehan made change happen. They made one of the biggest sacrifices you can make, and Cindy Sheehan is continuing to make sacrifices, but it's worth it to her, and the peace of mind that she should get from knowing that her son died for a reason is priceless.

If I lived in the most conservative of places, I'd be out loud and proud because I want the next generation of gay boys to have more options than I did and I have a hell of a lot of options. It is ******, wrong, and sickening that my room mate's funding for college will get pulled if he comes out to his parents. It is ******, wrong, and sickening that Corey Sheehan had to die to make some people break out of their stubborn beliefs, but it was worth it. I'm sure he would have agreed with me, and I'm sure his mother agrees now.

Sorry, but I'll never sit to the side in the face of conservatism. Such meekness hasn't helped anyone in the past and it won't help anyone in the future. Rights have always been won with a fight, and these bastards aren't hearing logic, so we'll have to rub our homosexuality in their faces because their ******** has caused boys to (1)commit suicide, (2)be lonely and closeted, (3) be dishonest about themselves and reinforce a straight image, (4) get beat up in bathrooms, (5) get murdered in cold blood, (6) to get made fun of, (7) to not be able to get any friends because that would be social suicide, (8) to hate themselves, (9) to try to get their orientations changed, (10) to not only promote a straight image, but to promote a straight, homophobic image because they are so scared of what might happen to their house of cards if someone figured out, (11 to infinity) will have to wait for another day. This kind of homophobic ******** is causing people to die, and it's causing everything else I listed above, and it's not going to stop without a fight.

_Emerson

 

[Orlando Furioso]

I think I understand your point, which seems to be "don't ask, don't tell," or at least "tell it very quietly if you have to." But until gay people decided to be Out, Loud and Proud, they were arrested just for being gay and forced to stay hidden and lie about their sexuality.

Bigotry and hatred are not eliminated by staying quiet and non-confrontational. The hatred of gay people is based on irrational and unfounded fear in addition to the lies spouted by religious and poltiical leaders. Keeping ones mouth shut will only perpetuate those lies and stereotypes.

Why don't you instead question the motives of someone who would respond with violence just because someone is gay instead of questioning why someone would be open about their sexuality.

yeah... you totally misread the post and have proceeded to add connotation that was not meant (but, I probably did not make it that clear to begin with; i am subtle that way).

I agree with you and encourage people to own their sexuality, and, in the case of being gay, be open about it. That is what I meant by "presence" a few posts ago. I'm just commenting on a trend I notice where guys define themselves ONLY by their sexuality. In those cases, the person is a lot harder to get to know and "less present" because they are not sharing other aspects of themselves as well. Please note, I am not making a distinction between out/closeted/flamboyant/hyper-masculine etc. Nor am I judging them. So please, quit assuming that I am.

Personally I like to define myself by my words and actions (even the impulsive ones). Being gay is a part of who I am, but it is nowhere near the whole story. Nor, (i sense a communal gasp coming), is it the most important part of my life (even though it defined a few key points in my life).

Before anyone jumps to more conclusions and questions my involvement with the community. I chose to attend UC Berkeley just for that reason (well that, and receive a good education). I came from a hyper-religious anti liberal community. I mean, our local Catholic church even referred to the dominant Christian church as the KKK. Yeah, they were _that_ open-minded and friendly. I've been open since my freshmen orientation week (i was actually coerced into coming out in a weird way; but i would have done it on my own anyway). I attended all the LGBT related events/seminars i could. I even lead the LGBT-Catholic student group at my church. Where, we (another gasp), encouraged people to own both their sexuality and spirituality. And yes, those two are sometimes difficult to reconcile. Oddly enough, it was the only spiritual-sexuality group on campus and we had members from all faiths of life (even a few atheists wanting to understand what they hated/feared).

Anyway, without going on, I just wish to finish by saying that I value the sacrifices and bravery of the men and women that came before me. I wish to uphold their work and do my part to keep their work alive by representing the community well. There is no sense in setting progress back by aggravating folks and causing a backlash. Aggravating people (and pushing their buttons) mostly serves to piss them off. They know gay/lesbian/bi etc. people exist. This was established long ago. I think the trend now should be to start to let them actually come to know us*. Understanding and further acceptance comes with this approach.

(there is a HUGE difference between "look at me Im here" and "look, this is who I am).

*and again, to avoid further confusion about this, I obviously don't mean to sit "idly by" and wait for stuff to happen; im not endorsing a "dont ask dont tell" policy. Being out and who you are is a part of letting people get to know you. That process is very much an active one where communication is free flowing between all parties. A prissy prima donna, a hyper-masculine greater than thou attitude (whatever)...

[keyphrase]
that serves as a front or wall...
[/keyphrase]

circumvents open dialogue** and the understanding that comes with it.

**more than just verbal; I'm lumping in choices and actions also, as they speak to who a person is; sometimes more readily than words.

Alrighty. I must get back to my HW.

says a lot of stuff; surprisingly very judgmental in parts

I'd love to reply now, but have a lot of work to do, I'll reply later.
For now, I'll just say, we obviously have different approaches and points of views. Which is good, it demonstrates the range (and diversity/representation) within the community.

 

[scem0]

I'd type out a lengthy post, but I'm about to go out. But here is a quick summary of what I think:

I agree that honesty is the most important issue. And I'm not saying I'd be more gay than I am now, I'd just be more vocal about it. The trend of defining themselves only by their sexuality is something I also totally agree upon. I know that I seem overtly sexual in this thread, I talk about sexual things a lot, but such is the nature of a thread on homosexual discussions. I don't let homosexuality determine what kind of music I listen to, how I style my hair, what TV shows I watch, etc. and I don't like it when gay men do that.

But I think history says something totally different from what you are saying in regards to fanning the flames. I don't think us being proud and loud would just make them more close minded or more resistant. Maybe on a short-term basis. But history has shown that the proud, out, and loud are the ones that have made the changes in the past.

_Emerson

 

[Grey Beard]

This kind of homophobic ******** is causing people to die, and it's causing everything else I listed above, and it's not going to stop without a fight.
_Emerson

Emerson, In a lot of what you said, you shame me. It may be that I'm older and have experienced a lot of total bigotry in the past. I was out at Stonewall, I have lived through and played my part and perhaps now I'm just slowing down a little. Time now for me to have a little introspection and think a bit about myself, both health and where I want to be, where I want to go. Yes, people die, my best mate was one as most of you good folk know. I attempted suicide and it's only 'luck' that sees me here with you guys now. And these are just two episodes from my life, and the death I have known.

While we each lead a life of duality, a face for this, a face for that, people will continue to die. Each death also affects more than just the victim.

Oscar Wilde wrote;

For he who lives more lives than one
More deaths than one must die​

Enough of dying, it's time to start living. Each in his own way, this will make a difference.

Kevin
aka Grey Beard

 

[iGary]

Emerson - did you put this on your queue?

http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60001737&trkid=189530

You need to. I think I forgot to recommend it.

Hope you liked "Beautiful Thing."

 

[scem0]

Just added it . The main character sounds painfully naive which might drive me nuts, but it does sound good.

I just went to Macy's with a friend and boy did I feel out of place. There are some things in life that I'll never understand and spending $300+ on a bag is one of those things. I lean to the trashy side, if I had all the money in the world I'd still go to Young Chow and get their two dollar hot and sour soup . I love how real and honest that place is.

_Emerson

 

[iGary]

Just added it . The main character sounds painfully naive which might drive me nuts, but it does sound good.

I just went to Macy's with a friend and boy did I feel out of place. There are some things in life that I'll never understand and spending $300+ on a bag is one of those things. I lean to the trashy side, if I had all the money in the world I'd still go to Young Chow and get their two dollar hot and sour soup . I love how real and honest that place is.

_Emerson

No, he doesn't really come across as naive, but it's a cool story.

We have a couple of friends who are real label queens. I told Rob if he ever spent 400 dollars on a pair of Prada shoes I'd cut his feet off.

Rob baked a chicken, made some brussel sprouts and corn bread. Couch and a movie night. I got a bucnh of ne pictures framed for the deli downtown (please lord, let them sell) and we just finished laundry. All set for the week.

We were even good boys and went to the gym on a Sunday. Very dissapointed in the scenery, though. Too many women and old straight men.

 

[slooksterPSV]

...
Sorry, but I'll never sit to the side in the face of conservatism. Such meekness hasn't helped anyone in the past and it won't help anyone in the future. Rights have always been won with a fight, and these bastards aren't hearing logic, so we'll have to rub our homosexuality in their faces because their ******** has caused boys to (1)commit suicide, (2)be lonely and closeted, (3) be dishonest about themselves and reinforce a straight image, (4) get beat up in bathrooms, (5) get murdered in cold blood, (6) to get made fun of, (7) to not be able to get any friends because that would be social suicide, (8) to hate themselves, (9) to try to get their orientations changed, (10) to not only promote a straight image, but to promote a straight, homophobic image because they are so scared of what might happen to their house of cards if someone figured out, (11 to infinity) will have to wait for another day. This kind of homophobic ******** is causing people to die, and it's causing everything else I listed above, and it's not going to stop without a fight.

_Emerson

Exactly! This is what's going on in the world and it's just horrible. I wish people would be more open-minded. Instead you get these ******** that just say - you need to look to God and have him help you. I had one religious person tell me that and basically I just said, I don't have to look towards God cause God knows where I'm going, and what I'm doing. He's perfectly fine with me being gay and that's that.

EDIT: Just a side note, my religion is Wicca and I think the main reason I like it is because there is no one set true "sexual orientation", it believes in all orientations - GBLT (gay bi lesbian transgendered) + I believe in Magick

 

[scem0]

We have a couple of friends who are real label queens. I told Rob if he ever spent 400 dollars on a pair of Prada shoes I'd cut his feet off.

I'll help . I'm all about pay-less .

_Emerson

 

[iGary]

I'll help . I'm all about pay-less .

_Emerson

Oh, another movie - "Fogi is a Bastard" - weird Swiss independent film.