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I don't know If you remember. Many years ago, when gen2 of the MacBook Air came. And there was like lines diagonally over the screen, it looked like ****.

I remember what the store said "It's a feature" it is like that.

But they changed it after I called Apple.
 
I don't know If you remember. Many years ago, when gen2 of the MacBook Air came. And there was like lines diagonally over the screen, it looked like ****.

I remember what the store said "It's a feature" it is like that.

But they changed it after I called Apple.

;) Yeah. They said to me that all the larger keys probably sound different to the smaller keys. The problem is that some of the larger keys are as quiet as the smaller keys, and some are a lot louder so it would be reasonable to be concerned that this may not be intentional! But he was like duh on the phone!
 
I love it, I think there's a big difference in the feel of the keyboard, definitely softer / more padded.
 
I’ve read the warranty, and as you say, it states “You are entitled to a replacement or refund for a major failure”. But the choice of which warranty remedy you receive, under Apple’s voluntary warranty, is up to Apple. The warranty document states:

...

This applies if you are seeking remedy under Apple’s voluntary warranty.

If you use the ACL, your remedy is with the retailer. Specifically, the ACL states “You cannot demand a repair, replacement or refund from the manufacturer.”

It doesn’t appear that you can demand that Apple make a refund based on the Apple warranty, since there’s no language that provides for that, even though that’s the remedy you prefer.

Thanks for your comment.

Although I think your conclusion is incorrect (because there is language that provides for consumer entitlement for a refund in this Apple warranty, to which Apple is bound, read its top paragraph!), you have made me realise I might not be able to use the line, "Apple will ... exchange the Apple Product for a refund of your purchase price" as a justification to have my claim enforced with NSW Fair Trading, because of the slimy words "at [Apple's] option" inside the context of that quote in the warranty.

But the rest of what you've said, I've already checked with ACCC and discussed it earlier in this thread - see here.

Now, about those quotes from the ACCC, I do suspect that the following one might not apply to my case but is only in the case of statutory warranty:

"If it is considered to be a major failure, then it is up to the consumer to pick [the remedy option]...They should be providing you with the remedy that you request as the consumer, under the law."

Under statutory warranty, it is clearly laid out that only the reseller is obligated to go with the remedy option the consumer picks in the case of a major failure, and that manufacturers are not obligated to issue the refund at all.

(I will however double check on that with ACCC on Monday, because if it turns out the above principle applies even to a voluntary warranty that merely lists the consumer entitlement to a refund, then Apple is 100% PWND.)

But that aside, you need to remember that this is a 'voluntary warranty' that Apple have provided on top of statutory warranty, through which ACL requires them to not be misleading to the consumer, and to which ACL still applies as it relates to dispute resolution and misconduct charges.

As I quoted before, as directly from the ACCC:

"If they do state [your entitlement to a refund] in their [voluntary] warranty, they do need to adhere to the warranty that they've set, because if they don't, or they fail to, it could be misleading within our laws... If they choose not to adhere to the warranty that they've offered, it could be misleading."

And more specifically to my case and Apple's slimy wording:

"Our laws do prevent businesses from being misleading. If they do have the upfront statement that does say something, but the fine print then contradicts that, that could be a misleading statement that they do have in the document, and then that would possibly be in breach of our laws."

And even stronger (and this is what surprised me):

"Generally, if someone is misled by anything, any statement made, for example, they are entitled to a remedy which is to put them back into the situation that they would have been in had they not been misled."

So, it seems clear to me, that my claim for a refund from the manufacturer under their voluntary warranty against defects can be enforced by Fair Trading because of the clarity of their statement about it at the top of it.

So thanks for your comment, it seems more informed as to ACL than anyone else I've seen in this thread, but it seems that (based on what ACCC have told me) ACL applies to custom warranties in many ways too, such that companies like Apple can't avoid the regulations of consumer law (in the legislation) via any custom or slimy wording or contradictory fine print in their own voluntary warranty itself, and I'm getting the impression that ACCC really do side with the consumer when something like this takes place.

I'd be interested in your reply to this. Maybe you didn't know that ACL applies to voluntary warranties as well?
 
Thanks for your comment.

Although I think your conclusion is incorrect (because there is language that provides for consumer entitlement for a refund in this Apple warranty, to which Apple is bound, read its top paragraph!), you have made me realise I might not be able to use the line, "Apple will ... exchange the Apple Product for a refund of your purchase price" as a justification to have my claim enforced with NSW Fair Trading, because of the slimy words "at [Apple's] option" inside the context of that quote in the warranty.

But the rest of what you've said, I've already checked with ACCC and discussed it earlier in this thread - see here.

Now, about those quotes from the ACCC, I do suspect that the following one might not apply to my case but is only in the case of statutory warranty:

"If it is considered to be a major failure, then it is up to the consumer to pick [the remedy option]...They should be providing you with the remedy that you request as the consumer, under the law."

Under statutory warranty, it is clearly laid out that only the reseller is obligated to go with the remedy option the consumer picks in the case of a major failure, and that manufacturers are not obligated to issue the refund at all.

(I will however double check on that with ACCC on Monday, because if it turns out the above principle applies even to a voluntary warranty that merely lists the consumer entitlement to a refund, then Apple is 100% PWND.)

But that aside, you need to remember that this is a 'voluntary warranty' that Apple have provided on top of statutory warranty, through which ACL requires them to not be misleading to the consumer, and to which ACL still applies as it relates to dispute resolution and misconduct charges.

As I quoted before, as directly from the ACCC:

"If they do state [your entitlement to a refund] in their [voluntary] warranty, they do need to adhere to the warranty that they've set, because if they don't, or they fail to, it could be misleading within our laws... If they choose not to adhere to the warranty that they've offered, it could be misleading."

And more specifically to my case and Apple's slimy wording:

"Our laws do prevent businesses from being misleading. If they do have the upfront statement that does say something, but the fine print then contradicts that, that could be a misleading statement that they do have in the document, and then that would possibly be in breach of our laws."

And even stronger (and this is what surprised me):

"Generally, if someone is misled by anything, any statement made, for example, they are entitled to a remedy which is to put them back into the situation that they would have been in had they not been misled."

So, it seems clear to me, that my claim for a refund from the manufacturer under their voluntary warranty against defects can be enforced by Fair Trading because of the clarity of their statement about it at the top of it.

So thanks for your comment, it seems more informed as to ACL than anyone else I've seen in this thread, but it seems that (based on what ACCC have told me) ACL applies to custom warranties in many ways too, such that companies like Apple can't avoid the regulations of consumer law (in the legislation) via any custom or slimy wording or contradictory fine print in their own voluntary warranty itself, and I'm getting the impression that ACCC really do side with the consumer when something like this takes place.

I'd be interested in your reply to this. Maybe you didn't know that ACL applies to voluntary warranties as well?
Interesting, and thank you for the follow up. “What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away” may not apply here it seems. The misleading part really is key, thank the ACL for that.

I agree that it would be reasonable to rely on that first statement up top. One could read that statement and assume it was the consumers choice, and not read any further, thinking Apple was offering quite a good warranty with respect to major failures—even though Apple later makes it clear (buried farther down, if you will) that that’s not actually their intention.

I think you have a good case. If Apple wants to reserve for itself the choice of remedies, that should be made explicitly clear in the first statement: “You are entitled to [either] a replacement or refund[, at Apple’s sole discretion,] for a major failure”. [See paragraph X below for complete details.]

Absent those modifications, one could certainly assume it is the consumer’s choice: “you are entitled”...you, the consumer. So if I’m entitled to “this” or “that”, I’ll take “this”, thank you very much, done. What? No? What do you mean I’m only entitled to “that”—read your words! I get what you’re saying, and I think you’re right.

The fact that a reasonable person could read their language and be misled is prima facie evidence that the current wording is, in fact, misleading. The modification I propose would make sure that the consumer would not be misled by the statement up top. Their language doesn’t do that, and certainly could mislead—and in your case, has misled—the consumer.

I think the best question to Apple is, “why didn’t you clarify that it’s not my choice when you told me I was entitled to a replacement or refund, up top”. The main point being they could have, and clarifying it—to your detriment—farther down in the document was not sufficient to prevent your being misled.
 
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I just moved from rMB 2016 to new Pro. The keyboard has a BIT more travel, is quieter, and feels a bit more mushy (as in a bit more 2015 rMBP) after the painfully precise rMB. I need a bit to get used to it, I'm surprised at the difference. But it is definitely quieter by FAR. As for dust, uh-oh at that Tab key!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.gif – a large reason why I bought this one is to avoid keyboard problems :S
 
I just moved from rMB 2016 to new Pro. The keyboard has a BIT more travel, is quieter, and feels a bit more mushy (as in a bit more 2015 rMBP) after the painfully precise rMB. I need a bit to get used to it, I'm surprised at the difference. But it is definitely quieter by FAR. As for dust, uh-oh at that Tab key!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.gif – a large reason why I bought this one is to avoid keyboard problems :S
What happened to your tab key?
 
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...

I would blame autocorrect if I were using it. I think I had a tiny bit of dust near the Tab key. And that I shouldn't post on Macrumors before my coffee kicks in.
 
Update for now (I promised to ring ACCC today and did):

Now, to be exhaustive, because I'm not leaving any detail unchecked, I first want to deal with how I said in my last post that I would check with ACCC again as to the following detail of their advice from their previous phone call:

"If it is considered to be a major failure, then it is up to the consumer to pick [the remedy option]..."

I wanted to know whether that applies to only statutory warranty vs. voluntary warranty consumer rights. However, I didn't end up asking because I realised it's irrelevant to my case anyway. I AM asking for a refund, which I'm simply entitled to, so that detail is irrelevant whether it applies to a certain warranty type vs. another.

So, I distilled and simplified things as much as I could for the ACCC and this is my update after two phone calls this arvo:

I rang ACCC and then NSW Fair Trading. I had questions that were getting more specific by now, and both agencies weren't willing to answer most of them specifically, due to their rule of not giving legal advice.

But NSW FT were great, and took me further. I'll write up my letter to Apple based on their 'letter of demand' template and share my letter with you once I send it.

I'll take a bit of time to finalise the letter. I'm more informed than ever now, and it's more clear than ever that I have been misled by Apple in both their statements to me and the fine print of their warranty (insofar as it counts towards Apple failing to comply with their promise to me for a "refund for a major failure"), and that strongest of all, I am eligible to be put "back into the situation that would have been in had not been misled." (I.e., a ****ing refund that's for sure.)

I'm really glad to have ACL to step in and protect me (no matter how slimy Apple can be here), and a further piece of encouragement was that when I laid my situation out (afresh) to the lady at Fair Trading, she seemed baffled why Apple would not just issue the refund on grounds of their statement at the top of their warranty (of my entitlement to refund) that I've been telling Apple the whole time, so clearly I'm not the only 'reasonable' person who reads this warranty and only desires a fair go from Apple as one of their customers when a major defect occurs!

So...I'll keep you updated when I am ready next, but feel free to continue any discussion on my case with me in the mean time.
 
I have given up trying to understand this world. Nothing makes sense anymore! :D

To be fair, due to Apple's monopoly on macOS (bar Hackintosh alternatives), users end up with no choice other than to jump to Windows/Linux machines which some people have, but not everyone is able to.
 
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Its really not a monopoly. Its their product, and there are other operating systems other then macOS to choose from.

Oh I am not trying to suggest any foul play - it is that Apple doesn't licence their OS to other manufacters which they could (which is their right), compared to say Google (android) or Microsoft (understandably as they aren't heavily in the hardware domain).

If macOS was available on other competitors, then that user may have bought a macOS laptop from Lenovo, Dell etc if he was unhappy with the keyboard of the Apple made one, but that option isn't available so I was really almost defending the user's decision to buy another MacBook.
 
Oh I see, and yeah, we'll not see any licensing of macOS, as that will invariably spell doom for the mac line, like it did before. In some ways it's getting harder to justify the mac hardware and if apple opens the doors to computer makers to load macOS on their hardware, I think many frustrated owners will abandon apple.
 
Oh I see, and yeah, we'll not see any licensing of macOS, as that will invariably spell doom for the mac line, like it did before. In some ways it's getting harder to justify the mac hardware and if apple opens the doors to computer makers to load macOS on their hardware, I think many frustrated owners will abandon apple.

I don't see them doing so either. Would be nice if they did (for both macOS/iOS - it would definitely increase their market share and may be able to recoup loss of revenue to hardware via Appstore/services such as iCloud and Apple Music). But Apple are struggling with a lot of bugs recently on macOS/iOS as it is, imagine them trying to also QA thousands of hardware variants to boot on macOS/iOS...
 
Apple will NOT replace 2016/17 MBP with gen 3 keyboards. It'd be nice though.

I don't think the new keyboard will fit which is the main issue. The new keyboard with membrane is taller than the older ones so I think they've shaved off a bit of height in the top case or screen part to accommodate it.
 
The new keyboard with membrane is taller than the older ones so I think they've shaved off a bit of height in the top case or screen part to accommodate it.
I thought they reduced the size of the keys, not the top case. Tbh, I've not really researched it, but there were early claims that some apple stores did a keyboard replacement with the 3rd gen. I have no way to confirm this, but I took it at face value
 
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I thought they reduced the size of the keys, not the top case. Tbh, I've not really researched it, but there were early claims that some apple stores did a keyboard replacement with the 3rd gen. I have no way to confirm this, but I took it at face value

I've not researched it either - I'll be honest and say I can't remember where I heard that - I think it was form a couple of the usual Apple bloggers straight after release of the new MBPs.

Having used a 2018 MBP, I really like the feel of the new keyboard compared to the 2017. Its quieter but also has more feel - you don't get the impression that the keys are just hitting off a solid surface - there's more subtle feedback/kickback from them now.
 
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That would be the worst business move they could potentially make. Imagine the amount of Chinese "ayPhone XX" sellers offering their "iOS devices" on AliExpress for $99!

macOS – it does look like they are finally doing something with Macs, so I keep fingers crossed they will continue. And in some sort of sensible way, too.
 
To be fair, due to Apple's monopoly on macOS (bar Hackintosh alternatives), users end up with no choice other than to jump to Windows/Linux machines which some people have, but not everyone is able to.
I agree. It will be interesting to see how far people (me included) will be willing to go along for the ride for the sake of the OS.So far, we seem to have accepted higher price, lower reliability, soldered components (that were previously replaceable) and a touchbar.

The other day, my prof. called me a luddite because I refused to replace my MBP with a Touchbar model ;). He said hat while banging on the 'b' key extra hard cause it had stopped working correctly on his 2017 model. He could not afford another week without his primary machine and had decided to get it replaced during Christmas! So it seems people are also willing to suffer to own OSX. Fascinating beings we are....:p
 
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I agree. It will be interesting to see how far people (me included) will be willing to go along for the ride for the sake of the OS.So far, we seem to have accepted higher price, lower reliability, soldered components (that were previously replaceable) and a touchbar.

The other day, my prof. called me a luddite because I refused to replace my MBP with a Touchbar model ;). He said hat while banging on the 'b' key extra hard cause it had stopped working correctly on his 2017 model. He could not afford another week without his primary machine and had decided to get it replaced during Christmas! So it seems people are also willing to suffer to own OSX. Fascinating beings we are....:p

Heh, I am guilty of that too with the iPhone, which I never really have enjoyed since the 4S, but have kept with it always hoping for it to get better. I still feel like a mug for buying an iPhone 7 which was basically an iPhone 6S..
 
I don't think the new keyboard will fit which is the main issue. The new keyboard with membrane is taller than the older ones so I think they've shaved off a bit of height in the top case or screen part to accommodate it.
There's also the issue of the function keys. For Apple to put the new keyboard design in 2016-17 models, they'd have to design and stock a Generation 3 butterfly keyboard with function keys for the non-Touchbar 13" model. Just for repairs. I don't think Apple is willing to do that. Given the rumors of the "new MacBook Air" and the fact that the non-Touchbar models did not get upgraded, it looks like Apple is going to ditch the non-Touchbar MacBook Pro, and it's more cost-effective to continue replacing top cases with the ones they have than to manufacture and stock a new kind of top case just for repairs on a machine they intend to stop selling.
 
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