Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Gen 3 butterfly keyboard
- Thread starter Lastgreen
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I just got off the phone with Apple (Australia), speaking to a senior advisor from the AppleCare department.
Despite everyone at Apple (right up to this guy) agreeing that my keyboard problem is a 'major failure' and thus grounds for me to ask for a full refund, they're still refusing to refund me themselves (despite their 1-year warranty promising this) - not even with an Apple Store Gift Card method so that I could only buy another apple product with the money they refund me - no, they're insisting that I go to the 'seller' (which wasn't Apple with my Mac), EVEN after all the ****** experience I've had with this keyboard defect AND after driving 2 hours to an Apple Store already at my own time and expense.
I recorded the phone call for reference. I asked about two things that you may be interested to know that I asked the AppleCare senior advisor specifically:
- Would Apple offer me refund in the form of gift card which I would immediately use to purchase as 2018 model with the same money anyway? No.
- Would Apple offer a 'replacement' in the form of a 2018 model of equivalence to my defective 2017 model? No, it would simply be another 2017 model (i.e. the exact same hardware).
It seems Apple are insisting that people can't be satisfactorily remedied for this awful keyboard design - even to the point of wasting their own money by offering constant defective top case replacement after replacement - and that's MAJORLY BAD PR. I will not let Apple treat me or any other customer with this defective product like this. I will not put up with it, I will not put up with only being offered the SAME defective product as the repair or replacement - how does that make sense? I have rights for a refund!
I will ring the ACCC again (probably on Monday after the weekend), because I think legally Apple are denying their own warranty's obligations of service to me as their consumer. Do note that this is all very different to the warranty terms in USA. The USA agreement for the MacBook Pro appears less clear as to consumer rights, so do realise this is only relating to Australia.
I'm learning more on the particulars of Australian consumer law and now think that under Apple's own warranty (the white glossy piece of paper you get in your packaging when you unbox your Mac and as mirrored online), Apple classifies as the 'seller' and not merely 'manufacturer', and this warranty falls under the 'voluntary warranty' category as noted by the ACCC.
See this ACCC PDF (direct link to the page on Voluntary Warranties).
In other words, the 'Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty' MAKES Apple the seller (and not just manufacturer) for every Apple-branded product sold in Australia, regardless of where the product was bought. They are technically both manufacturer and 'seller' under the law simply by virtue of producing their own extra guarantees with this warranty, which is on top of the ordinary statutory warranty consumer laws and manufacturer/seller differences in how warranty refunds are to be processed.
So, I'll bring this research to the ACCC, and let the plot thicken.
Because this is getting very detailed about the refunds process now, I leave the possibility open to ignorance on the part of the senior advisor in the AppleCare department as to these nuances of the warranty and refund rights, but still maintain that all this stinginess from Apple, after so much money has been paid for what is a fundamentally defective product, is breathtaking. This is a PR disaster, and they are NOT handling it properly.
I've read the entire warranty now, and I do see some weird contradictions, e.g. a clause stating that "Apple will, at its option ... (i) repair ... (ii) replace ... or ... (iii) ... refund", and a couple other clauses implying that they can choose how to service the major defect, but nonetheless, the VERY clear and simple statement in the very first paragraph that, "You are entitled to a ... refund" remains, and that wording is used by all retailers in their voluntary warranties to comply with Australian consumer law, which is after all what the ACCC/NSW Fair Trading tribunals has the final say on.
So I will bring all this to the ACCC and go from there. Unbelievable.
Despite everyone at Apple (right up to this guy) agreeing that my keyboard problem is a 'major failure' and thus grounds for me to ask for a full refund, they're still refusing to refund me themselves (despite their 1-year warranty promising this) - not even with an Apple Store Gift Card method so that I could only buy another apple product with the money they refund me - no, they're insisting that I go to the 'seller' (which wasn't Apple with my Mac), EVEN after all the ****** experience I've had with this keyboard defect AND after driving 2 hours to an Apple Store already at my own time and expense.
I recorded the phone call for reference. I asked about two things that you may be interested to know that I asked the AppleCare senior advisor specifically:
- Would Apple offer me refund in the form of gift card which I would immediately use to purchase as 2018 model with the same money anyway? No.
- Would Apple offer a 'replacement' in the form of a 2018 model of equivalence to my defective 2017 model? No, it would simply be another 2017 model (i.e. the exact same hardware).
It seems Apple are insisting that people can't be satisfactorily remedied for this awful keyboard design - even to the point of wasting their own money by offering constant defective top case replacement after replacement - and that's MAJORLY BAD PR. I will not let Apple treat me or any other customer with this defective product like this. I will not put up with it, I will not put up with only being offered the SAME defective product as the repair or replacement - how does that make sense? I have rights for a refund!
I will ring the ACCC again (probably on Monday after the weekend), because I think legally Apple are denying their own warranty's obligations of service to me as their consumer. Do note that this is all very different to the warranty terms in USA. The USA agreement for the MacBook Pro appears less clear as to consumer rights, so do realise this is only relating to Australia.
I'm learning more on the particulars of Australian consumer law and now think that under Apple's own warranty (the white glossy piece of paper you get in your packaging when you unbox your Mac and as mirrored online), Apple classifies as the 'seller' and not merely 'manufacturer', and this warranty falls under the 'voluntary warranty' category as noted by the ACCC.
See this ACCC PDF (direct link to the page on Voluntary Warranties).
In other words, the 'Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty' MAKES Apple the seller (and not just manufacturer) for every Apple-branded product sold in Australia, regardless of where the product was bought. They are technically both manufacturer and 'seller' under the law simply by virtue of producing their own extra guarantees with this warranty, which is on top of the ordinary statutory warranty consumer laws and manufacturer/seller differences in how warranty refunds are to be processed.
So, I'll bring this research to the ACCC, and let the plot thicken.
Because this is getting very detailed about the refunds process now, I leave the possibility open to ignorance on the part of the senior advisor in the AppleCare department as to these nuances of the warranty and refund rights, but still maintain that all this stinginess from Apple, after so much money has been paid for what is a fundamentally defective product, is breathtaking. This is a PR disaster, and they are NOT handling it properly.
I've read the entire warranty now, and I do see some weird contradictions, e.g. a clause stating that "Apple will, at its option ... (i) repair ... (ii) replace ... or ... (iii) ... refund", and a couple other clauses implying that they can choose how to service the major defect, but nonetheless, the VERY clear and simple statement in the very first paragraph that, "You are entitled to a ... refund" remains, and that wording is used by all retailers in their voluntary warranties to comply with Australian consumer law, which is after all what the ACCC/NSW Fair Trading tribunals has the final say on.
So I will bring all this to the ACCC and go from there. Unbelievable.
For what it's worth. I bought an Alienware 15R2 from the microsoft store at the mall in 2016. It had a bad fan and they exchanged it for a new one and threw in a 2yr warranty with accidental damage. Fast forward to last month which is 1yr and 11 months from the date of purchase. I broke the "B" key off when I was wiping the keyboard down with a towel. My fault. Took it to the microsoft store to get it fixed under the warranty and they not only replaced the whole machine for the $99 deductable, they gave me a brand new way faster Alienware 15R4 even swap.
So take that apple!
So take that apple!
Sounds good. Enjoy Windows.
Joking aside, you did well there! It's always nice to hear stories about people getting lucky with that kind of thing.
As far as I see everything there still refers to the actual party with whom the financial transaction was being made being ultimately responsible? ( which is exactly why I try and only buy Apple stuff direct from Apple so they can't ping pong )
It proves there is a membrane there, that makes it dustproof in the first few days of ownership.
There is no guarantee the membrane and its associated dustproofing lasts more than a week at this point.
Please see my previous post regarding the fact that they are indeed complying with Australian Consumer Law and even officially named the repair as under ACL.
Not at all. Apple as the manufacturer are both responsible for this product defect, AND in this case (in their Australian region voluntary warranty, and it's probably same in EU), have offered a clear right (with them as the obligor) for the consumer to a product refund when such a defect (a 'major failure') exists.
I think they're trying to prevent a precedent with people like me from having an actual remedial fix to the defect which can only be a revised design, and trying to pretend the problem doesn't exist, all for economic reasons - to prevent a glut of 2016/2017/2015 MacBooks with time-bomb butterfly keyboards from flooding the second-hand and refurb market and becoming machines that no one wants because everyone knows about the issue.
And that is a disgusting way to treat those of us who absolutely DO have this keyboard problem!
In fact, I've thought of a legal argument that might hold water against Apple in my case (and be a precedent for others): if Apple state that they won't replace the defective 2017 keyboard with a new 3rd-generation 2018 keyboard MacBook (which isn't listed in the Keyboard Service Program, and so by omission means Apple doesn't acknowledge that one as defective) (and yes they have stated this repair program fact directly to me in the Apple Store during my Genius Bar appointment), nor will they even provide a whole laptop replacement for a defective 2017 design with a non-defective 2018 unit (which I have recorded Apple saying in my phone conversation with the AppleCare senior advisor, more on this below), then if they do not offer a full monetary refund to the user or a replacement that doesn't contain their own Apple-acknowledged defect, it cannot possibly be acceptable as a 'remedy' for it!
In other words, manufacturers ought to actually remedy their product defects, and certainly are required by law to do so when they have a voluntary warranty that specifically promises it.
This is all I'm asking.
That legal argument might need a major court case to rule on though, probably going to the AU supreme court, so don't count me on following through with it LOL but depending on how things go I could seek pro bono lawyers or digital rights bodies like Electronic Frontiers Australia (which is AU's teeny-tiny equivalent to the EFF) to see if anyone wants to take it on as a case, or just suggest it to the ACCC themselves who would be the best body to clamp down on Apple's malpractice anyway.
ACCC have both told me over the phone, and also their documentation states:
"The ACCC treats misleading conduct very seriously, and can take court action against businesses that mislead or deceive consumers about their rights. This can result in fines of up to $1.1 million for businesses and $220 000 for individuals."
I should have audio recorded my Genius Bar appointment for evidence on Wednesday, because the Apple Store manager literally did exactly this. He said he cannot offer me a refund, but Apple's own warranty seems to imply they can.
The AppleCare senior advisor today continued the same narrative by pretending that Apple can only act as the non-refunding manufacturer here, simply ignoring their voluntary warranty altogether! But he then proceeded to offer me a 'like-for-like' replacement offer (different to a refund), (which would be the same 2017 model, he said), suddenly referring to one of the non-refund remedy options listed in the Apple Limited Warranty. This inconsistency shows Apple being OK with repair or replacement directly from them (not even asking me to go to the 'reseller' for replacement) which must mean under their 'Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty' - but not refund!
I quoted their warranty line "You are entitled to a replacement or refund for a major failure" at least three times, but he kept on saying I have to go to the point of purchase for a refund. This I believe is deception because Apple lists themselves as the 'Warranty Obligor' listed on their own damn warranty and this agreement is only between them and me. THEY are legally obligated to issue the refund for a major failure - not anyone else. How else can the entitlement be enforced?
He said (I'm quoting as a transcription):
"We are the manufacturer. However, you did not purchase it directly from Apple. You purchased it from a reseller, so the money is with the reseller. That's why you need to go back to them and then ask for a refund."
So, let's see what the ACCC says about all this. Is Apple shirking its warranty obligations?
Last edited:
I think, they don't have a system to recollect the money from a seller. So, they really can't do anything in this case. It's the seller's responsibility to refund, whereas Apple can only do repairs.
Weren't Apple paid wholesale by the reseller when it was stocked at the reseller? (And isn't this amount by far the bulk of the retail value displayed to the end customer since the RRP on Apple products is so standardised?)
And here's a little further info I just found on the NSW Fair Trading website.
This voluntary warranty is a 'warranty against defects', and the 'You are entitled to a replacement or refund' text is mandatory under Australian Consumer Law. I found the phrase on ALDI's website too when googling it earlier today.
Now think about this: why would Apple offer all these defect remedies (whether repair, replacement or refund, in their voluntary warranty against defect), if they were making nothing from the sale of their Apple products through resellers? They won't be losing $4000 from the refund of my MacBook, lol!
Saying the money is 'all with the reseller?' makes no sense. Apple RECEIVED the bulk of the money for my MacBook Pro at the B2B level at least four months ago when the reseller purchased / ordered it from Apple themselves. Apple has already made their profit.
And I think I did see on ACCC docs somewhere a process for manufacturer to demand money from a retailer. But that's not my business. Mine is only with Apple and their obligation for my entitlement to refund as the consumer that they've promised to me.
Can you still contact the seller though and see what they say? They are definitely bound to replace/refund.
This course of action is not just about me.
I'm doing this because if I'm being treated this badly by Apple, others also will be who are affected by a recently-bought Touch Bar MacBook Pro and are discovering this daily keyboard nightmare. Now I understand why there are lawsuits in America (it's because of how Apple are dealing with this defect), and I want to establish as efficiently as possible whether what Apple Pty Ltd in Australia is doing - refusing to refund this defective product under the Apple Limited Warranty according to ACL - is illegal or not.
I want to do something about this scandal. Apple should not get away with this, and how they've treated me (and others) is atrocious. They need to own up to their manufacturer defects and we need to fight for our consumer rights when it happens.
Under Australian Consumer Law, Apple is not allowed to refuse a consumer guarantee that they have voluntarily offered in their warranty and legally obligated themselves to. I'm pretty certain of this, and I'll get ACCC's/NSW FT's help to investigate if legally this is true.
The fact I have to fight for this particular remedy option from Apple in and of itself is testament to the nature of this scandal.
They simply do not want customers to be able to exchange a faulty 2017 MacBook for a 2018 fixed revision if they can do something about it, and this is not right, it is extremely irresponsible.
As I've noted before, I like fighting for my rights.
I wholeheartedly support the cause and let me know if you need another dissatisfied customer - my replaced topcase has already started the popping noises both at hinge and under the keyboard. Booked a Genius appointment on Monday.
Do the 2018 models also ahve the popping noise issue?
No one has used these keyboards for an extended period of time to prove the membrane continues to work under normal usage over time.
Yep, interested in knowing whether the 2018 models have popping noise issues from the prior.
Man, I love the ACCC.
Fellow Aussies and people who want Apple to be held accountable for their mistakes and to treat their customers as they ought to (like any other business):
It appears that everything I concluded from my research above about 'consumer guarantees' and 'voluntary warranties' as they relate to receiving a full refund from Apple (as the manufacturer) in the case of a 'major failure', is not only correct, but it's even stronger for my rights than I was thinking.
In my second phone call with the ACCC, they have just told me this:
"If it is considered to be a major failure, then it is up to the consumer to pick, so [Apple does] need to adhere to the consumer's choice of that repair, replacement or refund. ... [Apple] have agreed that it is a major defect. They should be providing you with the remedy that you request as the consumer, under the law. ... That's regardless of any kind of warranty as well."
To really make sure I'm right, I explained again, that I'm pursuing my consumer guarantee under Apple's voluntary warranty here, not the general statutory warranty rights in Australia (because the refund obligations are clearly different if it's the manufacturer and not the retailer which is the case with my MacBook), and they said:
"Yeah... If they do state [your right to refund] in their [voluntary] warranty, they do need to adhere to the warranty that they've set, because if they don't, or they fail to, it could be misleading within our laws... If they choose not to adhere to the warranty that they've offered, it could be misleading."
Clearing up the difference between statutory rights and this voluntary warranty rights, she continued:
"[As it relates to] Your statutory rights, ... You have the rights with your retailer and your rights with your manufacturer. The manufacturer, ... under the law ... they don't need to provide a refund. In relation to the [Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty] [however], that's a promise they make you. ... If they make a promise, they need to adhere to that. ... If they fail to do that it may be in breach of our laws, because they may be misleading consumers into thinking that they're entitled to something that they will not provide."
I then quoted some further clauses in the Apple warranty where it seems to give the impression that Apple have the power to choose how the product defect is remedied (and not the consumer), like this excerpt:
"If during the Warranty Period you submit a claim to Apple or an AASP in accordance with this warranty, Apple will, at its option: [(i) repair ... (ii) replace ... or ... (iii) exchange the Apple Product for a refund of your purchase price."
I asked her if this meant that Apple can actually deny a refund for a major failure despite their statement that the consumer is entitled to it up the top?
The ACCC agent replied:
"Our laws do prevent businesses from being misleading. If they do have the upfront statement that does say something, but the fine print then contradicts that, that could be a misleading statement that they do have in the document, and then that would possibly be in breach of our laws.
"Generally, if someone is misled by anything, any statement made, for example, they are entitled to a remedy which is to put them back into the situation that they would have been in had they not been misled."
That's interesting!
Then, continuing:
"Generally, what they do [with a voluntary warranty] is really up to them and it is at their discretion what promises they make, but the promises need to be adhered to and they shouldn't be misleading in the way that they do word them."
"They are ... in breach of our laws if they ... go back on something that they've clearly stated."
So my next step is to take this very clear ACCC information to Apple Support in the form of a live text chat, and show you the transcript. As promised, I'm only going through the course of action I've already laid out for this last week. If the live chat doesn't result in Apple agreeing to a refund and starting the process for that, I'll send a written letter as advised by ACCC.
I will not let Apple handle #KeyboardGate by treating their customers like dirt. Each turn they take, of denying or minimising it, of trying to make it quietly go away, and even refusing customers to fairly have their 2017/2016 MacBooks be replaced with 2018 ones that fix the unfixable 2nd-gen keyboard defect (which actually is an option cheaper than ten 2017/2016 top case replacements in a row), is only making their reputation worse.
Like I'm sure most here, I WANT Apple to succeed and to make their MacBook products awesome again - just treat me appropriately as the passionate Mac user that I am, in return, please!
I expressed just this, i.e. how much I've loved using MacBooks since 2010 and how I want to continue to do so for the next five years with my current machine to the Charlestown Apple Store manager, and the look he had on his face back to me was like he didn't give a single little ****.
Fellow Aussies and people who want Apple to be held accountable for their mistakes and to treat their customers as they ought to (like any other business):
It appears that everything I concluded from my research above about 'consumer guarantees' and 'voluntary warranties' as they relate to receiving a full refund from Apple (as the manufacturer) in the case of a 'major failure', is not only correct, but it's even stronger for my rights than I was thinking.
In my second phone call with the ACCC, they have just told me this:
"If it is considered to be a major failure, then it is up to the consumer to pick, so [Apple does] need to adhere to the consumer's choice of that repair, replacement or refund. ... [Apple] have agreed that it is a major defect. They should be providing you with the remedy that you request as the consumer, under the law. ... That's regardless of any kind of warranty as well."
To really make sure I'm right, I explained again, that I'm pursuing my consumer guarantee under Apple's voluntary warranty here, not the general statutory warranty rights in Australia (because the refund obligations are clearly different if it's the manufacturer and not the retailer which is the case with my MacBook), and they said:
"Yeah... If they do state [your right to refund] in their [voluntary] warranty, they do need to adhere to the warranty that they've set, because if they don't, or they fail to, it could be misleading within our laws... If they choose not to adhere to the warranty that they've offered, it could be misleading."
Clearing up the difference between statutory rights and this voluntary warranty rights, she continued:
"[As it relates to] Your statutory rights, ... You have the rights with your retailer and your rights with your manufacturer. The manufacturer, ... under the law ... they don't need to provide a refund. In relation to the [Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty] [however], that's a promise they make you. ... If they make a promise, they need to adhere to that. ... If they fail to do that it may be in breach of our laws, because they may be misleading consumers into thinking that they're entitled to something that they will not provide."
I then quoted some further clauses in the Apple warranty where it seems to give the impression that Apple have the power to choose how the product defect is remedied (and not the consumer), like this excerpt:
"If during the Warranty Period you submit a claim to Apple or an AASP in accordance with this warranty, Apple will, at its option: [(i) repair ... (ii) replace ... or ... (iii) exchange the Apple Product for a refund of your purchase price."
I asked her if this meant that Apple can actually deny a refund for a major failure despite their statement that the consumer is entitled to it up the top?
The ACCC agent replied:
"Our laws do prevent businesses from being misleading. If they do have the upfront statement that does say something, but the fine print then contradicts that, that could be a misleading statement that they do have in the document, and then that would possibly be in breach of our laws.
"Generally, if someone is misled by anything, any statement made, for example, they are entitled to a remedy which is to put them back into the situation that they would have been in had they not been misled."
That's interesting!
Then, continuing:
"Generally, what they do [with a voluntary warranty] is really up to them and it is at their discretion what promises they make, but the promises need to be adhered to and they shouldn't be misleading in the way that they do word them."
"They are ... in breach of our laws if they ... go back on something that they've clearly stated."
So my next step is to take this very clear ACCC information to Apple Support in the form of a live text chat, and show you the transcript. As promised, I'm only going through the course of action I've already laid out for this last week. If the live chat doesn't result in Apple agreeing to a refund and starting the process for that, I'll send a written letter as advised by ACCC.
I will not let Apple handle #KeyboardGate by treating their customers like dirt. Each turn they take, of denying or minimising it, of trying to make it quietly go away, and even refusing customers to fairly have their 2017/2016 MacBooks be replaced with 2018 ones that fix the unfixable 2nd-gen keyboard defect (which actually is an option cheaper than ten 2017/2016 top case replacements in a row), is only making their reputation worse.
Like I'm sure most here, I WANT Apple to succeed and to make their MacBook products awesome again - just treat me appropriately as the passionate Mac user that I am, in return, please!
I expressed just this, i.e. how much I've loved using MacBooks since 2010 and how I want to continue to do so for the next five years with my current machine to the Charlestown Apple Store manager, and the look he had on his face back to me was like he didn't give a single little ****.
Following this closely... Taking my MBP again for the popping noise they made worse with the topcase replacement.
Does this mean more key imprints on the screen? It's getting awfully tight between key desk and screen now
not really, remember the era 2012-2015...even more raised up. Apple, this time, they "erased" some material from the lid. So the difference should be the same...for me..after a few days with this think on a bag, tight up...nothing
They actually made the keycaps thinner to accommodate the membrane. There shouldn't be any net rise of height.
Well, I definitely need to have dinner so I'm going to relax and go and do that right now, but after 2 hours on Apple Chat and Phone just then, I've definitely made it one step further at Apple (it's still all very ugly), after some simple but important persistence.
A senior adviser from the Apple Asia-Pacific department is going to contact Apple's regional legal team, and then get back to me on the phone regarding my warranty claim.
I conveyed to him, word for word the very clear breach of ACL and misleading conduct which the ACCC has advised me of. It took quite a bit of waiting and insistence to even get to this guy today, but once I was there I stated literally the ACCC's quotes, text, and everything they've told me.
I think Apple's legal team are smart enough to know that it's not me that Apple Pty Ltd would be fighting here - it's the ACCC themselves. I told them my case is not just about me because this is as much about the breach that Apple is practicing with their warranty at large, and that applies to all consumers.
To be continued...currently ball in Apple local legal team's court.
A senior adviser from the Apple Asia-Pacific department is going to contact Apple's regional legal team, and then get back to me on the phone regarding my warranty claim.
I conveyed to him, word for word the very clear breach of ACL and misleading conduct which the ACCC has advised me of. It took quite a bit of waiting and insistence to even get to this guy today, but once I was there I stated literally the ACCC's quotes, text, and everything they've told me.
I think Apple's legal team are smart enough to know that it's not me that Apple Pty Ltd would be fighting here - it's the ACCC themselves. I told them my case is not just about me because this is as much about the breach that Apple is practicing with their warranty at large, and that applies to all consumers.
To be continued...currently ball in Apple local legal team's court.
Last edited:
Well done!
Looking forward to the result. It will be a huge triumph for the Australian customers. Thanks for being persistent...