Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[RickTaylor]

I broke down and went out and bought a used 2015 MacBook Pro. I find it surprising how much more comfortable it is for me to type on.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

Heh, I am guilty of that too with the iPhone, which I never really have enjoyed since the 4S, but have kept with it always hoping for it to get better. I still feel like a mug for buying an iPhone 7 which was basically an iPhone 6S..

I am wondering if all this is so telling of Microsoft's Windows? I mean are people willing to put up with so much because they love OSX or they want to avoid Windows? Personally, it is the latter for me. I am willing to put up with Linux's unpolished ecosystem rather than using a Windows machine.

So much room for improvement for Microsoft here. If only they invested in a proper Linux ecosystem instead of their Linux subsystem. Then we did truly have a *Nix based competitor to OSX. I would happily give Microsoft my money for a *Nix based OS.
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I broke down and went out and bought a used 2015 MacBook Pro. I find it surprising how much more comfortable it is for me to type on.

I am still using that today and I bought it in 2015. I am praying it does not break down soon (although I am more on my Pop OS Thinkpad T470 nowadays). If the 2015 breaks down, to me, there is nothing in the Apple stable I am willing to buy today.

 

[ascender]

From iFixit...

"The new keycaps measure in at around 1.25 mm in thickness, compared to the 1.5 mm thick keys in the 2017 model."

So you're right @maflynn the keys are more shallow.

 

[Ma2k5]

I am wondering if all this is so telling of Microsoft's Windows? I mean are people willing to put up with so much because they love OSX or they want to avoid Windows? Personally, it is the latter for me. I am willing to put up with Linux's unpolished ecosystem rather than using a Windows machine.

So much room for improvement for Microsoft here. If only they invested in a proper Linux ecosystem instead of their Linux subsystem. Then we did truly have a *Nix based competitor to OSX. I would happily give Microsoft my money for a *Nix based OS

This is some interesting reading about Bill Gate's linux past:

There's a huge amount of path dependency in how Windows, OS X and Linux came to exist as they are.

In Bill Gates’s initial strategy, devised in the 1970s, Unix was to be the core of the Microsoft platform. Microsoft’s version of Unix, called Xenix, was first released in 1980 (before MS-DOS). It rapidly became the most popular variant of Unix, but like all Unix systems, it required much more advanced hardware than low-end operating systems like CP/M.

MS-DOS was basically a copy of CP/M, which Microsoft acquired so it could license Microsoft Basic to IBM. Microsoft had already licensed Microsoft Basic to Commodore and Apple, so the IBM deal was just one of many, and MS-DOS was not viewed as a strategic OS. It was just a stop-gap until mass-market hardware became powerful enough to run Xenix.

In 1982, a legal earthquake led Bill Gates to completely change Microsoft’s strategy and abandon Unix, despite the fact that Microsoft was the leading vendor of Unix at the time. The earthquake was the breakup of the Bell System. AT&T had licensed Unix so widely, including to Microsoft, because the agreement granting it a telephone monopoly in the US had also barred it from entering the computer or software businesses itself. With the end of the monopoly, that bar also came to an end.

Bill Gates understood that AT&T’s entry would severely weaken all other Unix vendors (as it did, leading to the so-called ‘Unix wars’), so immediately started looking for alternatives. The partnership with IBM provided an opportunity, so Microsoft and IBM agreed to collaborate on a successor to MS-DOS called OS/2.

In addition to OS/2, Microsoft had decided to offer a GUI for MS-DOS, called Windows, to prevent the emergence of a competitive threat before OS/2 was finished. The idea was Windows and OS/2 would have similar GUIs, and Windows would fill the gap between MS-DOS and OS/2.

Another influence came from the hardware side. OS/2 was tightly coupled to the x86 PC architecture, and by the late 1980s it had become widely believed that RISC CPUs would eventually replace the then-dominant CISC architectures (VAX, x86 and 68k). Looking to the future, Microsoft took advantage of management incompetence inside DEC to hire DEC’s best software developers. They were tasked with designing an new OS that could run on non-PC hardware, and would be able to emulate OS/2 as well as MS-DOS and Unix/POSIX. That OS was planned to be sold as OS/2 version 3.0.

While the classic OS/2 failed to gain traction in the market, Windows unexpectedly took off. Windows was less powerful and less reliable, but had the advantages of lower resource requirements, better compatibility with MS-DOS software and better performance on low-end hardware. The success of Windows led to yet another shift in Microsoft’s strategy. To avoid losing Windows developers, Microsoft proposed to add a 32-bit Windows API to NT, which would run alongside the OS/2 API. IBM management feared that a 32-bit Windows API (owned by Microsoft) would undermine the OS/2 API (owned by Microsoft and IBM), so refused.

Faced with the risk of losing Windows developers when the hardware became powerful enough for MS-DOS/Windows to be replaced, Microsoft refused to accept the IBM position. As a result, the two companies parted ways, with IBM taking the classic, PC-only OS/2 2.0 and Microsoft taking NT. A 32-bit Windows API was added to NT, with OS/2 support relegated to 16-bit legacy OS/2 software, and the OS was transformed from OS/2 3.0 into Windows NT.

Windows NT 3.1 was released in 1993, but MS-DOS/Windows 3.x/9x continued to dominate the PC market of the 1990s. The hardware simply wasn't powerful enough for a more advanced operating system like NT (especially when running legacy MS-DOS software, which ran much faster under the less secure and robust design of Windows 3.x/9x). By the early 2000s, the hardware finally caught up with the software, and Windows NT was finally released in a consumer form, as Windows XP. With that release, MS-DOS/Windows 3.x/9x finally died and the Windows OS as we know it became the dominant PC operating system.

The Apple story is also quite complex, involving Steve Jobs being forced out of Apple, hiring people to develop a Mach-derived OS called NextStep (which originally ran on the 68k architecture), then being brought back to Apple and engineering a reverse-takeover. As with Windows, the classic Mac OS was completely replaced by a new OS, which was marketed under the same name as the old one. It happens that the new OS implements a Unix API (a kernel-mode server for the Mach microkernel), but it’s mostly a derivative of Mach.

 

[WardC]

I broke down and went out and bought a used 2015 MacBook Pro. I find it surprising how much more comfortable it is for me to type on.

I could not stand the new (2016) Keyboard, or the clicking mechanism of the trackpad, I simply did not like the touch and feel of the whole thing, plus the SOLE FOUR USB-C (Thunderbolt 3) ports, requiring dongles for everything...

I went and purchased a refurb 2015 2.8Ghz 512GB SSD model from the Apple Store, and I love it. The only thing I couldn't get on the refurb was the dedicated accelerated Radeon 395X, apparently all the refurbs now use only the Intel Iris. But still I love this MacBook Pro much more than that $3000 Space Grey headache of a hassle...

 

[jerryk]

I could not stand the new (2016) Keyboard, or the clicking mechanism of the trackpad, I simply did not like the touch and feel of the whole thing, plus the SOLE FOUR USB-C (Thunderbolt 3) ports, requiring dongles for everything...

I went and purchased a refurb 2015 2.8Ghz 512GB SSD model from the Apple Store, and I love it. The only thing I couldn't get on the refurb was the dedicated accelerated Radeon 395X, apparently all the refurbs now use only the Intel Iris. But still I love this MacBook Pro much more than that $3000 Space Grey headache of a hassle...

If you don't mind me asking, what does apple ask for one of these?

 

[tangfish]

Well, got my 2018 model. Yeah seems a bit quieter but that was not a complaint of mine on the older model to begin with. Still the same crappy typing experience overall with the butterfly mechanism, but hey the keys are so thin!

/s

 

[pubmsu]

Gotta share this.

I think the 2018 keyboard is losing the tactile feel fast. I tried it today at the store and it didn't have the bounciness that I felt the first day 2 weeks back. So with people using it in the store, it is losing bounciness.

I think the elasticity of the membrane is diminishing fast. Or something else. But definitely not as tactile as I felt the first day and rather flat now.

 

[Newtons Apple]

Gotta share this.

I think the 2018 keyboard is losing the tactile feel fast. I tried it today at the store and it didn't have the bounciness that I felt the first day 2 weeks back. So with people using it in the store, it is losing bounciness.

I think the elasticity of the membrane is diminishing fast. Or something else. But definitely not as tactile as I felt the first day and rather flat now.

So we are to trust how you "remembered" the keyboard felt two weeks ago?

 

[maflynn]

I think the 2018 keyboard is losing the tactile feel fast. I tried it today at the store and it didn't have the bounciness that I felt the first day 2 weeks back. So with people using it in the store, it is losing bounciness.

I think you're wrong on this. There are owners here that have been using the new MBP since it came out, and if the tactile feel is going away, we owners would notice. I think playing on a keyboard for 5 minutes in an apple store, leaving and coming back two weeks later is not what you would call an in-depth analysis on the quality of the keyboard or how its possibly fading.

 

[pubmsu]

Just received my replaced keyboard and topcase on 2016 15-inch! Reporting from the Apple Store itself. I am more than impressed with the replaced keyboard. It is much quieter - very very close to the 2018 version, which I compared side by side for long 30 minutes. In fact, it took me that long to fully evaluate the subtle differences between the two.

In terms of tactile feel, the 2018 keyboard is tad softer and bouncy - resulting in a more satisfying experience. It is also slightly more forgiving. Basically, the 2018 keyboard is very near to keyboard perfection. The replacement keyboard on the other hand, is very very close to 2018 one - except for the tad softer and bouncier tactile feel. The difference is very very little but still noticeable.

Bottomline is 2018 version is naturally better one overall. But the replacement keyboard leaves nothing to complaint about. I guess 8 out of 10 people will like the replacement keyboard. I will personally prefer the 2018 version as it allows me to type away with less force and feels like it is loving back my fingers - which is a truly enjoyable experience.

Many people will actually like the replacement keyboard more than the 2018 version because the perceived travel is surely more in the replaced version. I personally don't care much about travel. The flip side of travel is the fact that it requires a bit more force - which I don't prefer. If I didn't experience the 2018, I would be 100% satisfied with the replaced version. It is definitely an enjoyable keyboard as well.

I am pretty sure this one is not 2017 version either. Maybe 2017B. Or maybe a reworked version.

Now, the question is, how is the replacement keyboard so quieter without the silicone membrane? And if silicone membrane is used, why is it not softer and bouncier? I guess it can only be found out if someone opens up a key cap (which I won't )

On another front, it was humiliating to see that 2018 base model 13-inch Core i5 is outperforming my 2016 2.7 GHz Core i7 in Geekbench. I am now thinking whether to switch to a 13-inch...

@maflynn Please refer to my previous report (quoted above) from Apple Store on the keyboard tactile feel. I had tested it for 30 minutes that day and 20 minutes today - on both 15-inch and 13-inch. I have no doubt in my mind that the initial bouncy feel is no more there. I think I was quite thorough in my analysis above that day.

I may be wrong - this might not be a universal phenomenon with it and these two may not even be the same units after all, but I have absolutely no doubt about lack of the initial bouncy tactile feel.
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So we are to trust how you "remembered" the keyboard felt two weeks ago?

Please refer to my previous report regarding this - quoted above. Today 2018 keyboard felt just soft but not bouncy like first day. Obviously this is a subtle change but IMHO, this is quite plausible.

BTW, today I went to see the GBar for the worsened popping noise after the topcase replacement and they are now replacing my screen, too!

 

[maflynn]

@maflynn Please refer to my previous report (quoted above) from Apple Store on the keyboard tactile feel. I had tested it for 30 minutes that day and 20 minutes today - on both 15-inch and 13-inch. I have no doubt in my mind that the initial bouncy feel is no more there. I think I was quite thorough in my analysis above that day.

I may be wrong - this might not be a universal phenomenon with it and these two may not even be the same units after all, but I have absolutely no doubt about lack of the initial bouncy tactile feel.

My point is that you used it in a store, left for a couple weeks and came back. ITs hard to make an assessment on whether the keyboard is losing its tactile ability in such a scenario. Its just how we humans are. You may have felt it being tactile, but using other keyboards in the intervening two weeks could have subconsciously altered your perception.

 

[pubmsu]

My point is that you used it in a store, left for a couple weeks and came back. ITs hard to make an assessment on whether the keyboard is losing its tactile ability in such a scenario. Its just how we humans are. You may have felt it being tactile, but using other keyboards in the intervening two weeks could have subconsciously altered your perception.

Won't dispute this. But actually, if the tactileness is indeed diminishing, then it will be hard for a continuous daily user to determine that whereas a person who used it two weeks before and tests again can possibly tell the difference. The 13-inch I tested was already full of finger oil from people which I think Apple doesn't clean - these take quite a beating throughout the day. The 15-inch didn't have as much use based on the oil factor, but it also felt just soft and flat.

The bouncyness was giving it a feeling of increased travel - that is no more there.

Yeah, it could all be in my head but I'll trust myself. I am very detail-oriented and very preceptive about these stuff.

Off-topic, I found the Space Grey iMac Keyboard probably the best keyboard for my typing style, a tie with ThinkPad keyboards and better than the Logitech K811 in terms of requiring very little force. Just wish Apple releases the shorter version without num pad.

The 2018 keyboard, from my today's evaluation, definitely needs a further revision for 2019. It does have potential to reach very close to that Space Grey iMac Keyboard.

 

[eagerwu]

Won't dispute this. But actually, if the tactileness is indeed diminishing, then it will be hard for a continuous daily user to determine that whereas a person who used it two weeks before and tests again can possibly tell the difference. The 13-inch I tested was already full of finger oil from people which I think Apple doesn't clean - these take quite a beating throughout the day. The 15-inch didn't have as much use based on the oil factor, but it also felt just soft and flat.

The bouncyness was giving it a feeling of increased travel - that is no more there.

Yeah, it could all be in my head but I'll trust myself. I am very detail-oriented and very preceptive about these stuff.

Off-topic, I found the Space Grey iMac Keyboard probably the best keyboard for my typing style, a tie with ThinkPad keyboards and better than the Logitech K811 in terms of requiring very little force. Just wish Apple releases the shorter version without num pad.

The 2018 keyboard, from my today's evaluation, definitely needs a further revision for 2019. It does have potential to reach very close to that Space Grey iMac Keyboard.

Agree. I don’t think the membrane can hold very long against dust because of hole in the middle of it. And the key travel of course.

 

[pro24sure]

I sold my 2017 nTB 13" to upgrade to the 2018 13", mainly due to the quad-core option finally being in the 13" model. I will say that so far, my 2018 keyboard is much better than the 2017 model. It feels overall better to type on, smoother I would say compared to the 2017 model.

I will also add that I have no problem whatsoever typing on the new style. I guess that's part of me just being used to typing on multiple different keyboards. My work keyboard is a Dell multimedia, my external keyboard I use at home with the Macbook Pro is a Razer Blackwidow Tournament Edition Chroma and I use the built-in Macbook Pro keyboard every day.

So, I use a LARGE differing amount of keyboards everyday and for me they all work well.

 

[hajime]

Does that mean the 3rd gen keyboard may still has issues like the previous gen and Apple is still toying out different ideas to fix the issues?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apple-patents-trio-ideas-fix-220034715.html

 

[deeddawg]

I'm not sure anyone was thinking the 2018 keyboard would be the last design they ever used.

 

[hajime]

I am not sure but probably there may be major redesign of the MBP in 2020 and before that probably some improvements on 3rd gen keyboard to make them to have less issues than the older gens'.

 

[cwanja]

No. Just because Apple patents things, they may never make it to production.

 

[markedlymac]

Hi everyone,

An update on my case: I got busy with work last week, but I finally got round to sitting down and finishing writing up my letter of complaint to Apply Pty Ltd today which I have just posted and emailed to them. Here it is (Redacted for privacy):

What I've found since last updating you is the following (and this confirms what PickUrPoison was saying, but it's really good that I've come to this realisation from doing even more ACL research myself):

1. Apple's very structuring and the way they've worded their warranty (in the top section) is directly unlawful because it misleadingly gives the impression that Apple offers (and is obligated to offer) a refund to the consumer - a refund that they are entitled to. I'll summarise it at that, see more here and here if you want to understand more.

2. Many things that Apple have said to me in response to my claim have been in and of themselves misleading and deceptive as well, (I have it all on record.) such as statements 'we cannot offer you a refund' and so forth (they CAN, their warranty says so).

I'm very thankful that ACL protected me from the very beginning in this case (without me even knowing it). It's taken me a while to navigate exactly how though, but because of how clear the ACL is, it's obvious that Apple just can't win this one. How they choose to lose is their choice.

So, Apple have two weeks from today to honour what their warranty gives the impression to any reasonable person that they directly promise to the consumer (and which is what Apple tend to do anyway, no matter where you buy an Apple product, and which is even reasonable for me to ask from an ethical standpoint because it turns out that Apple gets on average 90% of the value of every reseller-sold Apple product anyway! How dare they be this stingy when 1. the defect is their fault and 2. I'm the one who's suffered from the defect!).

My refund has been weirdly refused in my case because of, I believe, the global approach of how Apple has decided to handle the #KeyboardGate controversy - they're doing everything they can to minimise or cover up this serious blunder they've made with the keyboard, and I'm a victim of anti-consumer behaviour in how they're choosing to deal with it. That is NOT ON.

Who knows what Apple will want to do next, but if they refuse to cooperate directly with my refund request, it may even result in Apple having to restructure and reword the applicable warranties of theirs in the future, to fix what is a clear breach of ACL. It would be my pleasure to help force a major company comply with Australian Consumer Law and to act fairly towards its consumers.

I've briefly compared Apple's poorly-worded warranty to other voluntary warranties like JB Hifi's, Dell's, and Belkin's, which make it CLEAR as to the difference between what remedies they themselves VOLUNTARILY offer, and what obligatory statutory warranty (under ACL, i.e. the 'consumer guarantees') offers. What a contrast in clarity to any reasonable person reading THEIR warranties!

So if Apple wants to turn this into a bigger problem for themselves and require their entire warranty to be re-worded because of this, then be my guest, Apply Pty Ltd.

And yes, I am sharing everything I'm finding in public here because I'm confident of the information that I'm sharing, and because all I'm doing is just bringing Apple's misleading conduct and breach of ACL to light.

Thank you to PickUrPoison for independently concluding what I also have from my own research. I don't know who you are but you seem to be a lawyer, or a very good law student .

So anyway that's it for now, will continue to update you as always.

PS I haven't read all this yet but this reminds me of my case hugely: https://web.archive.org/web/2015030...x.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/

 

[navaira]

I don't think I'd ever find enough determination to follow your footsteps, @mindfulmac – full respect to you. I hope you win, and then the case will go viral all over Apple news sites.

 

[markedlymac]

I don't think I'd ever find enough determination to follow your footsteps, @mindfulmac – full respect to you. I hope you win, and then the case will go viral all over Apple news sites.

Who knows. Apple wouldn't be the first major company I've successfully legally threatened. The other one is Facebook. (It's actually a funny story, media would like it. Won't share it here as it's off-topic.)

This is how David can beat Goliath:

If a multi-billion dollar company does something clearly wrong, and the jurisdiction has a powerful consumer protection agency who will readily help you (AFAIK Australia's is the toughest in the world or at least I had that impression growing up here because ACCC cracking down on companies was always in the news - though Ireland might be as tough given my limited time checking out their laws when I briefly fought Facebook 2 years ago, which is great news given that Silicon Valley is so reliant on that jurisdiction) - well - then it can be done.

It doesn't always work (or put it this way - it's not always easy), but if you comb through an agreement between you and a company, and you see them clearly violating its terms in some way (or like this MacBook warranty case, breaking a law that rules on what can even be in that agreement itself or how breaches of those laws are to be remedied), then you can argue your case if you put your intellect to it and donate some time.

I had a look at HP's Australian voluntary warranty BTW, and without looking at it much, theirs wasn't all that good either - i.e. a little unambiguous and possibly able to be misled by it, but not as disastrous as Apple's. (And a big contrast to Dell's and Belkin's which are great.)

So, if this resulted in Apple improving their warranties (and in more than just the AU region), then I hope it would make other companies revise theirs too, in a bit of a widespread 'warranty reform' to comply with ACL properly. Probably a good percentage of Australian-serving manufacturers are currently not.

 

[WardC]

I see nobody saying how much better the 2018 keyboards are than the 2015 ones with the longer key travel. This was the main factor why I got rid of my 2016 model. The keyboard (and the trackpad clicker) I did not like as well as the old 2015 models. I've tried all the settings, etc for the trackpad and I really didn't like how the click felt. The keyboard was just horrendous and felt flat and cheap. I really had trouble typing on it, and I was missing keys left and right. I am sticking with my two 2015 models (15-inch and 13-inch) and not upgrading anytime soon.

 

[vaugha]

Who knows. Apple wouldn't be the first major company I've successfully legally threatened. The other one is Facebook. (It's actually a funny story, media would like it. Won't share it here as it's off-topic.)

This is how David can beat Goliath:

If a multi-billion dollar company does something clearly wrong, and the jurisdiction has a powerful consumer protection agency who will readily help you (AFAIK Australia's is the toughest in the world or at least I had that impression growing up here because ACCC cracking down on companies was always in the news - though Ireland might be as tough given my limited time checking out their laws when I briefly fought Facebook 2 years ago, which is great news given that Silicon Valley is so reliant on that jurisdiction) - well - then it can be done.

It doesn't always work (or put it this way - it's not always easy), but if you comb through an agreement between you and a company, and you see them clearly violating its terms in some way (or like this MacBook warranty case, breaking a law that rules on what can even be in that agreement itself or how breaches of those laws are to be remedied), then you can argue your case if you put your intellect to it and donate some time.

I had a look at HP's Australian voluntary warranty BTW, and without looking at it much, theirs wasn't all that good either - i.e. a little unambiguous and possibly able to be misled by it, but not as disastrous as Apple's. (And a big contrast to Dell's and Belkin's which are great.)

So, if this resulted in Apple improving their warranties (and in more than just the AU region), then I hope it would make other companies revise theirs too, in a bit of a widespread 'warranty reform' to comply with ACL properly. Probably a good percentage of Australian-serving manufacturers are currently not.

You go out there and win. I commend your determination and persistence. Let us know how goes either good or bad.

 

[ascender]

I see nobody saying how much better the 2018 keyboards are than the 2015 ones with the longer key travel. This was the main factor why I got rid of my 2016 model. The keyboard (and the trackpad clicker) I did not like as well as the old 2015 models. I've tried all the settings, etc for the trackpad and I really didn't like how the click felt. The keyboard was just horrendous and felt flat and cheap. I really had trouble typing on it, and I was missing keys left and right. I am sticking with my two 2015 models (15-inch and 13-inch) and not upgrading anytime soon.

There's quite a few people who prefer the new keyboard to the last-gen one, but we/they're probably drowned-out by the sheer volume of negative/concerned keyboard-related posts that the new ones have generated. Just after a new product is released these forums do tend to get swamped with a lot of topics which maybe cover a small number of the same items.

Once i'd got used to the butterfly keyboards and also the magic keyboard, I've found the previous ones to be very mushy and non-precise in feel. But its a personal thing.