Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[macintoshmac]

All said and done, fact is Apple is going through turbulent times with respect to the keyboards they are using.

While I could adapt to the new key travel, I have been on the old design since 22 days now, and I am so at peace. I know this is not failing on me, it never ever did since 2011. I cannot say that for the 2016+ Herpes Edition MacBook Pros.

No doubt the hardware on those machines is delightful, the super fast file transfers, the ease of USB-C (yes, for me! ) and yes I particularly appreciate the thinness, but that's all there is to it. The hardware is good, but the keyboard is unreliable, and that makes the machine a no-go for me.

It looks good, it feels good, it works unreliably.

I wish next year they do a redesign and make MacBook Pros great again, keyboard wise. But till that happens, I really can not do the dance with Apple, leaving my peace of mind behind.

Hence, I went back to my 2011 on September 1, and it has been 22 days since, and I am not at all missing the my 2016 notebook with the 2017 keyboard.

The day Apple gives me a reliable keyboard again, is the day I will get myself an MBP again. Till then, I might just consider something non-Apple if my MBP 2011 fails due to the dGPU plague. I am trying to get my hands on a 2015 MBP second hand, though. Let's see if that pans out, I will have a retina screen with modest hardware bump that should keep me happy at my desk.

For on the go, I will take a retina MacBook 12 inch when my travels push me towards it.

I only wish luck to the gamblers who bought the 2018 even after owning and being burnt by the 2016 and 2017 models. Ideally, there should have been a mass boycott of the 2018 machines considering that people are still not totally accepting of the keyboard and there are some reports of failures.

It was shocking to know that my 2011 is a ticking time bomb in terms of the dGPU. Equally shocking was the 2016 purchase, where the keyboard acted up within months, but the issue resolved itself out, and then some months ago it all came back irreversibly, and I had to go in for a replacement keyboard. This is two strikes for Apple. I might give one more chance to the laptop subset of Apple, before giving up on it.

I have no experience of the desktop subset (iMacs) so can't comment. But I have owned iPhones and iPads and have never had any issue. Clearly, that is where the heart of Apple is.

 

[SDColorado]

What did you go with at the end? I've peeked at Matebook X Pro (wouldn't that be ironic?) but now that I reduced my complete setup to just the laptop and bought tons of USB-C dongles and cables I need something with four USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 slots. Plus, there's the software I paid for, but I'm starting to wonder whether those licenses don't happen to be PC/Mac by accident...

I can't believe I'm even contemplating Windows.


Aaaand my new signature quote is coming, a bit like winter.

I missed your question, but I decided to give the Thinkpad X1 Extreme a try. So far really liking it, but had it only for a week before taking off on a motorcycle camping trip, so will have to spend more time with it when I get back.

The MateBook is a nice looking machine as well and seems to be well reviewed.

But if you REALLY need 4 USB-C cables for functions not handled already by ports and slots on the alternatives, who does that other than Apple?

I love ThinkPads. They are well built and actually serviceable.

Super simple. 7 safety screws (the type that don’t fall out) pop the bottom cover off and you can easily upgrade RAM and SSD

Edit: I brought my Surface Pro on this trip. The type cover keyboard cover handles dust well. I use it to offload pics and some video.

 

[case2001]

I missed your question, but I decided to give the Thinkpad X1 Extreme a try. So far really liking it, but had it only for a week before taking off on a motorcycle camping trip, so will have to spend more time with it when I get back.

The MateBook is a nice looking machine as well and seems to be well reviewed.

But if you REALLY need 4 USB-C cables for functions not handled already by ports and slots on the alternatives, who does that other than Apple?



Super simple. 7 safety screws (the type that don’t fall out) pop the bottom cover off and you can easily upgrade RAM and SSD

Edit: I brought my Surface Pro on this trip. The type cover keyboard cover handles dust well. I use it to offload pics and some video.

Nice picture!

 

[Naimfan]

The 2018 keyboard is still awful, despite what internet shills try to claim otherwise.

Also, had a 2018 keyboard fail due to heat, so be wary . . .

 

[zoom25]

The 2018 keyboard is still awful, despite what internet shills try to claim otherwise.

Also, had a 2018 keyboard fail due to heat, so be wary . . .

Can you list your build?

I've been going back and forth between the 2.2 and 2.6, as well as 555x and 560x. I wouldn't mind spending a bit extra to get better performance, but am more worried about how these laptops will hold up over time due to the increased heat from the CPU and GPU upgrades. In my past two 15" MacBook Pros, I've run into GPU issues (Nvidia) over time. I'm a bit wary.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

...
Is that crazy??

It is crazy...
There are two options - exfiltrate yourself from the Apple ecosystem OR continue within the walls of Apple.
I have tried numerous times to get out of Apple's grip but have failed - not because Apple is that good, others are excruciatingly bad!

Having said that, it is not impossible. I have been using my Thinkpad T470 running Linux for nearly a month now...it is getting better. The laptop as such, to me, is miles better than the Touchbar infested MacbookPro.

Yes the SSD is not crazy fast as the Mac's but I have not noticed it in everyday usage. The build is not aluminum but is tough and light. And more importantly, it is upgradeable! I actually have two hard disks in my laptop. I will be looking to upgrade the RAM in the near future...Waiting for the prices to come down a bit..

The big advantage to going non-Apple is that you no longer have to deal with whatever deformations they have in store for the MBP plus you save a whole bunch of cash! For e.g., I have made up my mind that I will not buy the glued MBP come what may. It is a line I cannot cross cause I know if I buy that, I will be Apple's b***h for two reasons:
- I will be paying an insane amount of money when I can get better machines at 2/3rds the cost (Thinkpad Xtreme)
- I will be paying an insane amount of money to get the machine repaired when it will break. The new machines will break for some or the other reason for sure...it is an eventuality. It is unrealistic to expect these MBPs to last 5 years without a single instance of repair

 

[Naimfan]

Build: 2.2/16/1 TB/560x.

Lasted a month and change, but the "b" and "n" keys started double typing or not registering.

 

[poorcody]

Also, had a 2018 keyboard fail due to heat, so be wary . . .

Whoa... can you elaborate on that? How did it fail? How do you know it was because of heat? Never heard that one, although I've always been suspicious of heat affecting the keys somewhat...

 

[navaira]

I love ThinkPads. They are well built and actually serviceable.

But they're so ugly

Anyway, the third one works like a charm for whole 2.5 days so far. It's sad I buy an Apple product for €2489 and celebrate the fact it's not broken yet 2.5 days after I received, but the new Apple: It Just Sucks company vision really stuck recently.
[doublepost=1537688039][/doublepost]

But if you REALLY need 4 USB-C cables for functions not handled already by ports and slots on the alternatives, who does that other than Apple?

Actually I use three. 1) Connecting to external display with passthrough charging. 2) Connecting to my IcyBox with three hard drives on it. 3) Connecting to a USB-A box with hardware keys for three programs I use. And sometimes 4) connecting my mini extra drive with things that don't need to be on the 512GB SSD like full iTunes library etc. So yes, I need four, sadly. It's now my main computer. Mostly. When I'm not in process of replacing it.

Coolblue, the store where I bought it offers free replacements for 30 days since purchase date, and then two years of warranty. And something tell me before two years pass Apple will offer free keyboard replacements...

 

[angryminer]

The 2018 keyboard is still awful, despite what internet shills try to claim otherwise.

I don't know how people use them. They're an abomination.

 

[fokmik]

in an age of touch keyboards on our iphones/ipads....the 2018 keyboard is nothing but love
I think in 10 years from now, even the macs will have touch keyboard

 

[case2001]

But they're so ugly

Anyway, the third one works like a charm for whole 2.5 days so far. It's sad I buy an Apple product for €2489 and celebrate the fact it's not broken yet 2.5 days after I received, but the new Apple: It Just Sucks company vision really stuck recently.
[doublepost=1537688039][/doublepost]
Actually I use three. 1) Connecting to external display with passthrough charging. 2) Connecting to my IcyBox with three hard drives on it. 3) Connecting to a USB-A box with hardware keys for three programs I use. And sometimes 4) connecting my mini extra drive with things that don't need to be on the 512GB SSD like full iTunes library etc. So yes, I need four, sadly. It's now my main computer. Mostly. When I'm not in process of replacing it.

Coolblue, the store where I bought it offers free replacements for 30 days since purchase date, and then two years of warranty. And something tell me before two years pass Apple will offer free keyboard replacements...

I actually see the ThinkPads as attractive in their own way.
They definitely have their own personality.

I'm hoping you simply have incredibly bad luck! Because I'm holding off replacing my MacBook Air from 2013!

 

[navaira]

I actually see the ThinkPads as attractive in their own way.
They definitely have their own personality.

That they do, but I still don't like them Every time I see that red...joystick dot sticking out of the keyboard I think it's a laptop from 1998. Matebook X Pro doesn't exactly differ much from Apple's products looks-wise, but I believe it has a normal keyboard. Unfortunately it also has MS Virus on it... Huawei really need to accidentally pick Hackintoshable parts for the next iteration.

 

[case2001]

That they do, but I still don't like them Every time I see that red...joystick dot sticking out of the keyboard I think it's a laptop from 1998. Matebook X Pro doesn't exactly differ much from Apple's products looks-wise, but I believe it has a normal keyboard. Unfortunately it also has MS Virus on it... Huawei really need to accidentally pick Hackintoshable parts for the next iteration.

Ok this is the last off topic post about ThinkPads...But I love the TrackPoint. If I could get MacOS on a ThinkPad I would be in Heaven!!

I know everyone here is having a heart attack...

 

[Polymorphic]

It is crazy...
There are two options - exfiltrate yourself from the Apple ecosystem OR continue within the walls of Apple.
I have tried numerous times to get out of Apple's grip but have failed - not because Apple is that good, others are excruciatingly bad!

This, unfortunately, is all too true. Apple is really dropping the ball on the entire Mac lineup, but it's not as if anyone else is really capitalizing on it.

I bought a ThinkPad P50 a couple of years ago in an attempt to leave Apple. It's been a mostly frustrating experience.

Nevertheless, the MacBook Pro I bought in January was sold after six months because the keyboard was so abominable, and the Touch Bar so useless.

I genuinely liked my computing options better five years ago. Which seems incredibly absurd. But here we are.

Sometimes "progress" isn't.

 

[SDColorado]

Ok this is the last off topic post about ThinkPads...But I love the TrackPoint. If I could get MacOS on a ThinkPad I would be in Heaven!!

I know everyone here is having a heart attack...

Sign me up for that as well. I am liking the X1E I recently picked up, but being able to use something like Bootcamp to boot into MacOS would be cool

 

[abcdefg12345]

I've had mine for about a month now and haven't had any problems with the keyboard, I like the new keyboards, most people don't like them because they are different from what they are used to, if apple did it the other way around with the butterfly keyboards being the old ones and the old ones being the new ones then everyone will still be complaining.

 

[Roadstar]

I've had mine for about a month now and haven't had any problems with the keyboard, I like the new keyboards, most people don't like them because they are different from what they are used to, if apple did it the other way around with the butterfly keyboards being the old ones and the old ones being the new ones then everyone will still be complaining.

You can’t be serious, right? Typing feel aside, people are complaining about widespread reliability issues. That’s complaining for a very valid reason, not just because something changed. If the old keyboards had such reliability problems and the new ones were reliable, people would be cheering for Apple’s improvements.

 

[giffut]

The heat based failures are well recognized and discussed by users starting with the 2016 models caused by the metal plate/structure used for the butterfly mechanism to warp when the macbook profoundly heats up during heavy cpu/gpu related tasks. The severe heating itself is based on a systematically weak cooling system , which is not modern enough, basically a 8 year old design the least.

You can experience this yourself with a small experiment: Compare the sound of your keys with a "cold" macbook and one running full load for several minutes. The most significant change happens around the hotspot of the specific models regarding their temperatures and corelates with permanently failing keys.

Dust is only one aspect of failures, which mostly can be remedied with canned air. When the key completely looses funtion, the damage is because of heat related changes in the tiny metal structure of the butterfly keyboard switch, which lead to failure of the key press mechanism itself.

Any users, who use their machines to full potential and have it heating up - according to and well within Apples specifications - will experience a permanent failure of keys which can only be solved through repair by exchange.

The machines heat up so fast with even minor tasks, that many people will experience those failures.

This is the basic design failure of those keyboards. It is only sound and makes sense regarding two specific aims Apple intentionally must have had: First to save radically on production costs by eliminating raw material usage, as minimal as they may be, and second to enforce enormous repair costs for any minor failure by making single key exchanges impossible.

Like many other details of this macbook generation it was designed to fail to earn additional income by inflating repair costs and enforce faster more timely user upgrade cycles.

By the way: This is in accordance to degrading battery quality, with battery of models 2016/2017/2018 failing much faster and much less cycle runs, which again forces you to have a costly repair, also regarding Apples flawed battery test procedure, which can´t be trusted - remember the iPhone battery fiasco.

 

[Eason85]

Now that's a comforting thought. Sound like a Pepperidge Farm commercial. "Remember when computers where intolerant of dust? Apple Remembers.

Hahahahahahaha

 

[537635]

The heat based failures are well recognized and discussed by users starting with the 2016 models caused by the metal plate/structure used for the butterfly mechanism to warp when the macbook profoundly heats up during heavy cpu/gpu related tasks. The severe heating itself is based on a systematically weak cooling system , which is not modern enough, basically a 8 year old design the least.

You can experience this yourself with a small experiment: Compare the sound of your keys with a "cold" macbook and one running full load for several minutes. The most significant change happens around the hotspot of the specific models regarding their temperatures and corelates with permanently failing keys.

Dust is only one aspect of failures, which mostly can be remedied with canned air. When the key completely looses funtion, the damage is because of heat related changes in the tiny metal structure of the butterfly keyboard switch, which lead to failure of the key press mechanism itself.

Any users, who use their machines to full potential and have it heating up - according to and well within Apples specifications - will experience a permanent failure of keys which can only be solved through repair by exchange.

The machines heat up so fast with even minor tasks, that many people will experience those failures.

This is the basic design failure of those keyboards. It is only sound and makes sense regarding two specific aims Apple intentionally must have had: First to save radically on production costs by eliminating raw material usage, as minimal as they may be, and second to enforce enormous repair costs for any minor failure by making single key exchanges impossible.

Like many other details of this macbook generation it was designed to fail to earn additional income by inflating repair costs and enforce faster more timely user upgrade cycles.

By the way: This is in accordance to degrading battery quality, with battery of models 2016/2017/2018 failing much faster and much less cycle runs, which again forces you to have a costly repair, also regarding Apples flawed battery test procedure, which can´t be trusted - remember the iPhone battery fiasco.

This is one of the best summaries of Apple's laptop keyboard fiasco. Well done.

 

[case2001]

This is one of the best summaries of Apple's laptop keyboard fiasco. Well done.

So if heat is a contributing factor, this suggests the non-touch bar should be more reliable. Is that correct? Do the tbMacBook pros have a higher failure rate?

A follow up, what changes are noted with keys under load?

Thanks!

 

[zoom25]

Hmmm, so both heat and dust are a problem for these butterfly keyboards? The newer 8th generation run hotter which can also cause problems for the keyboard, but are better at handling dust.

I would be interested in hearing about where the 2017, 7th Gen dual core 13" without Touch Bar currently fit in. How reliable has the second generation butterfly keyboard implementation been on that model? Thanks!

 

[Mainsail]

I am disappointed that these keyboard problems persist. Like many others, I was hoping that the gen 3 Keyboard would solve the problems.....apparently not.

Apple seems committed to this design, and I suspect it will find its way onto the new MBA, which is a bummer because I was hoping to replace my 2014 MBA with a new one down the road. We will have to see how it goes, but i can’t see myself buying a laptop with these type of chronic keyboard issues.

Edit: BTW - does the rMB have the same keyboard problems? I understand it uses the same butterfly mechanism, but the processor is lower power (no fan for cooling) so I am wondering if it is less susceptible to heat related keyboard failures. Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[case2001]

The heat based failures are well recognized and discussed by users starting with the 2016 models caused by the metal plate/structure used for the butterfly mechanism to warp when the macbook profoundly heats up during heavy cpu/gpu related tasks. The severe heating itself is based on a systematically weak cooling system , which is not modern enough, basically a 8 year old design the least.

You can experience this yourself with a small experiment: Compare the sound of your keys with a "cold" macbook and one running full load for several minutes. The most significant change happens around the hotspot of the specific models regarding their temperatures and corelates with permanently failing keys.

Dust is only one aspect of failures, which mostly can be remedied with canned air. When the key completely looses funtion, the damage is because of heat related changes in the tiny metal structure of the butterfly keyboard switch, which lead to failure of the key press mechanism itself.

Any users, who use their machines to full potential and have it heating up - according to and well within Apples specifications - will experience a permanent failure of keys which can only be solved through repair by exchange.

The machines heat up so fast with even minor tasks, that many people will experience those failures.

This is the basic design failure of those keyboards. It is only sound and makes sense regarding two specific aims Apple intentionally must have had: First to save radically on production costs by eliminating raw material usage, as minimal as they may be, and second to enforce enormous repair costs for any minor failure by making single key exchanges impossible.

Like many other details of this macbook generation it was designed to fail to earn additional income by inflating repair costs and enforce faster more timely user upgrade cycles.

By the way: This is in accordance to degrading battery quality, with battery of models 2016/2017/2018 failing much faster and much less cycle runs, which again forces you to have a costly repair, also regarding Apples flawed battery test procedure, which can´t be trusted - remember the iPhone battery fiasco.

Hi,

My Google fu and Bing fu are failing me. I can't really find any specific discussions of heat failure with the keyboards. I did see some mentions of keys becoming "sticky" when machine is put under load. Is that what you are referring to.

Thanks!