Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

MacGizmo

macrumors 68000
Apr 27, 2003
1,629
958
Arizona
The biggest complaint I have about the 2018 MBP keyboard is that I don't get to use it enough. I have the Mac hooked up to an LG UltraFine most of the time, and using the latest Apple full size magic keyboard and mouse. I actually prefer the feel of the MBP keyboard to the external one.
 
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navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,803
4,983
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Awkay. Mine is going to be replaced. I installed Unshaky, but by now E, I, O and S were affected, while Unshaky does a really good job this is not what I want for €2500.

I still maintain the keyboard feels fantastic and sounds much better, though. Very Jony Ive. Hey, it doesn't work like it should, but isn't it purdy? ;)
 

satysin

macrumors member
Jul 30, 2018
41
3
Had my 2018 15" MBP for a little over 5 weeks now. Love the keyboard. It is weird to begin with but it is great to type on for extended periods of time. At least for me anyway. It is quite a bit quieter than the 2nd gen although I never owned a MBP with a butterfly keyboard before so I can't make a perfect comparison, just from my limited use from time to time of the previous butterfly keyboards.

It feels a little softer as well. No issues with any keys (yet!).
 
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Gen

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2008
889
94
I love the new keyboard. Especially now that they keys dont jiggle when you type. And i love that they're larger.
 
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Natzoo

macrumors 65816
Sep 16, 2014
1,245
128
Not sure where i am
So Gen3 are just quieter - and no changes made to fix the keyboard, is the official response...
The up and down keys are so loud on my 2018 mpb, is it the same for you or anyone else? Also ive been around alot of dust and particles for the past month and so far the keyboard is working. So hopefully that is a good sign
 

navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,803
4,983
Amsterdam, Netherlands
How is everyone lse's keyboard doing? I rplaced th first one because 'E' and 'O' gave double output. The replacment ither eats "E", "O", "I" and "T", or doubles them.

I didn't correct the typos above on purpose.

*SIGH*

No kernel crashes, no crashing speakers, a keyboard that sounds lovely (yes, up and down are louder for me as well), and THIS. After three generations. I love this computer, but...
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,279
4,244
Highlands Ranch, CO
How is everyone lse's keyboard doing? I rplaced th first one because 'E' and 'O' gave double output. The replacment ither eats "E", "O", "I" and "T", or doubles them.

I didn't correct the typos above on purpose.

*SIGH*

No kernel crashes, no crashing speakers, a keyboard that sounds lovely (yes, up and down are louder for me as well), and THIS. After three generations. I love this computer, but...
I replaced until #3 because several keys would not always register on the first press and the 8 key would occasionally stick.

I just don’t have confidence that the keyboard issue has been truly resolved.
 

casperghst42

macrumors member
Jan 11, 2006
92
51
Awkay. Mine is going to be replaced. I installed Unshaky, but by now E, I, O and S were affected, while Unshaky does a really good job this is not what I want for €2500.

I still maintain the keyboard feels fantastic and sounds much better, though. Very Jony Ive. Hey, it doesn't work like it should, but isn't it purdy? ;)
You know, just because Ive designed a keyboard less device does not mean that he can design a keyboard ... the Butterfly Keyboard show that he should have outsource the design to someone who actually know what they are doing ;-)
 
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navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
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Amsterdam, Netherlands
I replaced until #3 because several keys would not always register on the first press and the 8 key would occasionally stick.

I just don’t have confidence that the keyboard issue has been truly resolved.
Neither do I. Irritatingly, my 2016 rMB never had a problem that couldn't be resolved with canned air, yet this model with its Special Membranes does. Clearly Apple was telling the truth when saying the membranes do not improve reliability.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,279
4,244
Highlands Ranch, CO
Neither do I. Irritatingly, my 2016 rMB never had a problem that couldn't be resolved with canned air, yet this model with its Special Membranes does. Clearly Apple was telling the truth when saying the membranes do not improve reliability.
The older MBP’s you almost never had to do anything with the keyboards. Canned air or otherwise. Now we are down to people asking if you ever used it outside (asked on another MR thread), because apparently the developer of Better Touch Bar thought maybe the issues he had with his was from using it on his balcony or some crazy stuff. There is just something inherently wrong with a keyboard design if folks are worried about a little dust or pollen.
 

537635

macrumors 6502a
Mar 7, 2009
647
563
Slovenia, EU
because apparently the developer of Better Touch Bar thought maybe the issues he had with his was from using it on his balcony or some crazy stuff
That's just plain reckless. I mean he took a laptop from a closed apartment to a balcony. It was probably an open balcony. Does he think that a laptop is a portable computer or what?!?
 

Roadstar

macrumors 68000
Sep 24, 2006
1,527
1,846
Vantaa, Finland
That's just plain reckless. I mean he took a laptop from a closed apartment to a balcony. It was probably an open balcony. Does he think that a laptop is a portable computer or what?!?
Not to forget that a closed apartment doesn’t sound like a proper cleanroom these laptops were obviously designed for
 

mindfulmac

macrumors member
May 24, 2018
70
104
Hello everyone. It's been a long time since I've updated you here. Lots has happened.

TL;DR: just read the second screenshot in this post to have my entire situation summarised in a neat single paragraph.

Let's start with where I last left off on this thread. Someone replied to my last post:
No completely.

If you didn't buy it from apple, its not linked and it will not suffice as a proof of purchase.
This is correct. However, I still have rights to it as the 'gift recipient' under Australian Consumer Law (full rights as if I were the original purchaser, which makes sense, it's not fair to receive a defective macbook for Christmas if Apple still got paid), so I checked with ACCC about this conundrum in consumer law, and, they said it's up to the dispute resolution process to work that one out. (Obviously, I'd win in this case. Apple knew I was the only user as iCloud activated since day one and not a thief of the laptop, LOL, so they were just trying to deny me my remedy, once again.)

Jesus. So let's summarise everything from then to now. I'll try to make this as concise as I can.

My case is still ongoing, and I am still aiming to hold Apple to account for how hostile and anti-consumer they have been and continue to be regarding this disastrous keyboard defect. I knew this fight could take months. Well it's been 2 months so far.

Apple has done so much wrongdoing under consumer law, in my case, that if I really wanted to, it's possible I could sue Apple for MAJOR AND EMBARRASSING REASONS, which I didn't actually realise when dealing with Apple early on in July.

So, to remind you of where we left off, I posted my second letter of demand here. In it I demanded a refund within a reasonable / normal amount of time, or I'd sue.

In response, Apple surprised me with this news: they would now offer me a 2018 unit as a replacement remedy, with the explanation being

because, the representative said (and this time just for today this is a paraphrase quote from memory), "We don't manufacture the 2017 model anymore". (What a BS excuse for only NOW offering me the 2018 fixed model instead of the 2017 model which is all I asked for in the first place. Obviously, it was because I had just refused to accept this outrageous coercion and unconscionable behaviour of saying that it would take up to 2 months for me to receive my refund after I returned my MacBook Pro to Apple.)

Once they offered me this remedy, I realised that I had a lot more dirt on Apple than I first could see. I gave myself a week due to busyness in work and life, then sent the following third letter of demand (in the form of an email) in which I now demanded an UPGRADED unit as a form of compensation for all the lost time, productivity and stress that I had been put through as a result of Apple's sustained breaches of consumer law and misconduct towards me, or I'd sue to get it that way instead:



My thinking was, that they either comply and the case finally ends and I just focus on sending the ACCC as much info as possible and urge them to investigate Apple on this issue as much as possible, or if they refuse, I will make the most of my situation and allocate more of my time to sue the F U C K out of Apple for the sake of all consumers in Australia and even overseas.

You know what I realised? The Keyboard Service Program ITSELF is unacceptable! Why should we accept a defective part being replaced only with the SAME defective part? It should have been a VOLUNTARY RECALL, and there ought to be a class action lawsuit in CA just for this issue itself. There should be one in every country Apple sells in, until they change it to a recall program.

In response to this (in which I become more aware of my PR leverage in relation to this case), I was referred to Apple's Executive Relations department, who will be the person to deal with me from now on. After a phone call with them in which I stated the same firm assertion as in the email, the Executive Liaison allowed herself a week to apparently contact staff in Apple's legal and engineering departments, then got back to me saying that no, they would only offer me a 'like-for-like' 2018 replacement, and not with a few upgrades and AppleCare+ in the compensatory form that I had demanded above.

And yeah, all while pretending that everything I had gone through simply didn't happen. (No apology, no nothing.)

So today, I filed an official Consumer Complaint with NSW Fair Trading to have them demand the compensation on my behalf. See the summary here:


So that's where it's at.

I've now realised that if I really wanted, I could pile so much on Apple in the case of a court case or tribunal case.

As a consumer, I could sue Apple (i.e. seek compensation from them) for the nature of their Keyboard Service Program itself. (It doesn't even repair the defect!)

As a consumer, I could sue Apple for refusing to offer the consumer of a 2016 or 2017 macbook pro a replacement with a 2018 macbook pro and only offering a defective replacement units in full knowledge that they're doing this, which I didn't realise in the first place. (How easily we Apple customers just roll over with how Apple treat us! That's all changed now!)

Some of this stuff I could sue for, would probably require a decent lawyer though (but it could help my own compensation case to just lay it out as what Apple is doing to consumers, and make it a big media expose in the process). So depending on how things continue to go, I have a lot of options ahead of me.

It doesn't matter that Apple lawyers or PR people may be reading this post you're reading right now. It appears the consumer victory is mine to seize just depending on how much time I want to spend on it, and exactly what I want to sue for (and whether I can get assistance for that).

What I'm asking for from Apple to me is just a pittance - $1500 in compensation value on top of a reasonable replacement remedy.

What's important is my symbolic victory for all other consumers and Apple needing to learn that they can't mistreat consumers like they have with this keyboard defect.

If Apple are treating me like this, then they're doing it to others, and this has to be fought.

I'm fed up with this treatment from Apple, and just so you know my down arrow key has taken a turn for the worst since a week ago and it's a TERRIBLE experience trying to use it like a normal keyboard. All the better for demonstrating on TV!

Glen
 

Hexiii

macrumors 65816
Jun 30, 2011
1,113
373
Prague, Czech Republic
Ac
You know, just because Ive designed a keyboard less device does not mean that he can design a keyboard ... the Butterfly Keyboard show that he should have outsource the design to someone who actually know what they are doing ;-)
Actually, it's very unlikely that Ive had much to do with the mechanism itself. Might be looking at Dan Riccio for that...
 

macintoshmac

macrumors 68040
May 13, 2010
3,837
3,389
The older MBP’s you almost never had to do anything with the keyboards. Canned air or otherwise. Now we are down to people asking if you ever used it outside (asked on another MR thread), because apparently the developer of Better Touch Bar thought maybe the issues he had with his was from using it on his balcony or some crazy stuff. There is just something inherently wrong with a keyboard design if folks are worried about a little dust or pollen.
We are only going back to the "purest expression of computing" again, where the machines were intolerant of dust and such everyday stuff so much that we had to remove our shoes before entering into the "computer room".
 
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SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,279
4,244
Highlands Ranch, CO
We are only going back to the "purest expression of computing" again, where the machines were intolerant of dust and such everyday stuff so much that we had to remove our shoes before entering into the "computer room".
Now that's a comforting thought. Sound like a Pepperidge Farm commercial. "Remember when computers where intolerant of dust? Apple Remembers. :)
 

grillface

macrumors newbie
Mar 7, 2011
22
14
Hello everyone. It's been a long time since I've updated you here. Lots has happened.

TL;DR: just read the second screenshot in this post to have my entire situation summarised in a neat single paragraph.
Thank you for this detailed thread and thank you for standing up for consumers! As a fellow Australian, I am very interested to hear what comes of your endeavors. I'm so thankful of our consumer protection laws.
 

curlygiraffe

macrumors newbie
Sep 16, 2018
1
7
I bought a 13" 2018 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar around a week ago. I've used it only in my apartment, at my desk and in bed.

This is my first MacBook since I first bought an MBA in 2012 or 2013, and it's a pretty big letdown. The keyboard is not particularly pleasant to use for writing for any length of time, but I could live with that. The problem is that my 'r' key is already affected by the sticky key issue. Key presses in the bottom left corner of the key are not registering. Of course the keyboard is still usable if I take care to press the centre of the key, but this is not what I expect from a $2000+ laptop after a week of light use.

So much for the fabled apple build quality... I have an appointment at the Genius Bar on Tuesday, where I expect I'll be told there's nothing they can do.

mindfulmac -- I'm an Australian lawyer and you can be sure I don't intend to go quietly if Apple isn't willing to assist...
 

navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,803
4,983
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Mine is going back again. The E key either registers, or doesn't at all, or registers twice. Sometimes I have to literally slam it a few times until I get the result. Unshaky helps with I, O, and R, but this is not really how I want to use a €2489 laptop.

Meanwhile, the 2016 rMB keeps working as it should, no keyboard problems there...

(This post required thre – oh, four typo corrections.)
 
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