Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[Ma2k5]

I have had my top-spec, fully loaded 2018 MBP for a few months now and recently noticed an increasing incidence of repeat keystrokes, mostly from n, m, o and space-bar. Diddling with the Preferences settings for key-repeat accomplishes nothing. From the moment this machine was unpacked, it's had a keyboard cover on it, so debris ingress into the keyboard assembly should be minimal. From this and the many reports of keyboard issues after just a few days of use, I'm thinking it indicates a contact-material issue rather than a debris issue. If so, debris would worsen the problem but even cleanroom usage would not prevent it. (And no, I'm not an accomplished keyboard engineer, but apparently whoever cooked up this butterfly design isn't either.)

I'll register a complaint with AppleCare but can't afford to be without my machine for an extended amount of time. I can mostly live with this issue if it doesn't get worse. But it's not what I want from a nearly $4k machine.

I think the key here is that, it isn't stuck debris which causes this issue of double/missed keys but there is some fundamental flaw on how the product registers a key stroke. If it was merely dust, Apple would never have to replace keyboards and would just blast compressed air until it resolved itself.

There are other keyboards which had the same problem and they don't use butterfly keys (e.g. Keyboard chatter on the Aero 15X).

 

[Jinx Mac]

If you use it at a specific location, keep an external keyboard there.

I'm sorry, but the whole reason I get the MBP is that I can use it anywhere and don't need to buy any additional hardware. I get what you are saying, but that isn't the "fix".
[doublepost=1544547148][/doublepost]

I think the key here is that, it isn't stuck debris which causes this issue of double/missed keys but there is some fundamental flaw on how the product registers a key stroke. If it was merely dust, Apple would never have to replace keyboards and would just blast compressed air until it resolved itself.

There are other keyboards which had the same problem and they don't use butterfly keys (e.g. Keyboard chatter on the Aero 15X).

Totally agree - If it were just dust then other keys would be impacted. All 6 of my MBP's have started with the "e" key and spread to other keys around the 'e". There is very clearly a fundamental design flaw. I do think that it has something to do with heating. I noticed that when I first start using the computeer, that it really heats up the first few days while it is downloading emails, things from the cloud, etc. I have stopped any migration and just log into the cloud, etc. But the heat generated in those first few days is strong. My guess is that it warps something around the "e" side of the keyboard. Who knows.
[doublepost=1544547367][/doublepost]

Hi guys,

My first post here. I've been following the forum closely for the last couple of weeks. I bought the MBP 2018 13'' 2,5 weeks ago. I could get a good deal by buying it through my job so I basically took the jump before really reading into the keyboard issues. My girlfriend got the 2018 Air around the same time, and after 2 days she concluded it's useless for her because of the key repeating issues. She returned it, got a new one, same exact issues (and obviously returned it and got her money back). She wanted to use it mostly for typing, so a 100% functioning was crucial (but obviously in this price range it is crucial for all of us).

So from my/our experience the 2018 Air and the 2018 MBP have the exact same issue: it always starts with key repeats around the area of the letter e and then it spreads. As said, I've had mine for 2,5 weeks now and I experienced the same issues that people here have described. Besides the keys repeating, a few days ago I also noticed that the letter e would simply not register a couple of times, but after a bit of twisting and turning that's not happening anymore.

I have installed this small tool that I read about on reddit called Unshaky. It cancels out a good amount of the double registrations, and I must say for me this works for now. It says that it has ''prevented'' more than 200 double strikes until now. So it seems to help. But the thing is, I know that the keyboard will further deteriorate and that it's not an issue of dust or any of that nonsense, no it's a design fault. And I hate that I'm basically waiting for that further deterioration to happen. It is my first experience with a MBP so maybe I am a bit naive for asking but is there anyone who believes that they will actually come with a new - working - 4th variant of the keyboard and that our 3rd gen keyboards will be replaced with that one?

I can still return it and get my money back without any problems if I decide to do so within the next week. But I simply love the rest of the MBP and I actually enjoy the keyboard as well, in the 80-90% of the times that it works. But 80-90% is just ridiculous in 2018. I'll make my mind up at the end of next week, but will follow your experiences and any possible responses from Apple (have we had any respons that points towards a solution!?) closely until then.

I would absolutely take it back to the Apple store and get a new one -- I agree that everything else about the MBP is amazing (clearly, as I am on my 6th). Make the complaint, make them look at the computer that you're taking back. Apparently they send all returned computers out for diagnostics. Don't settle.

 

[Wags]

If you use it at a specific location, keep an external keyboard there.

Get what you are saying. Might be okay at home desk.
Still just ridiculous that we need to do things like that to keep our machines working or try and extend problems. Some people get issues after minimal use. The product/quality doesn’t match the resources they have. Seems decisions just coming down net profit.
[doublepost=1544549556][/doublepost]

Hi guys,

My first post here. I've been following the forum closely for the last couple of weeks. I bought the MBP 2018 13'' 2,5 weeks ago. I could get a good deal by buying it through my job so I basically took the jump before really reading into the keyboard issues. My girlfriend got the 2018 Air around the same time, and after 2 days she concluded it's useless for her because of the key repeating issues. She returned it, got a new one, same exact issues (and obviously returned it and got her money back). She wanted to use it mostly for typing, so a 100% functioning was crucial (but obviously in this price range it is crucial for all of us).

So from my/our experience the 2018 Air and the 2018 MBP have the exact same issue: it always starts with key repeats around the area of the letter e and then it spreads. As said, I've had mine for 2,5 weeks now and I experienced the same issues that people here have described. Besides the keys repeating, a few days ago I also noticed that the letter e would simply not register a couple of times, but after a bit of twisting and turning that's not happening anymore.

I have installed this small tool that I read about on reddit called Unshaky. It cancels out a good amount of the double registrations, and I must say for me this works for now. It says that it has ''prevented'' more than 200 double strikes until now. So it seems to help. But the thing is, I know that the keyboard will further deteriorate and that it's not an issue of dust or any of that nonsense, no it's a design fault. And I hate that I'm basically waiting for that further deterioration to happen. It is my first experience with a MBP so maybe I am a bit naive for asking but is there anyone who believes that they will actually come with a new - working - 4th variant of the keyboard and that our 3rd gen keyboards will be replaced with that one?

I can still return it and get my money back without any problems if I decide to do so within the next week. But I simply love the rest of the MBP and I actually enjoy the keyboard as well, in the 80-90% of the times that it works. But 80-90% is just ridiculous in 2018. I'll make my mind up at the end of next week, but will follow your experiences and any possible responses from Apple (have we had any respons that points towards a solution!?) closely until then.

They probably will eventually include in replacement program. Don’t want to admit still sucks yet and entice people to buy AppleCare.

 

[Wags]

I am curious what Apple says when returning. ‘ I’ve never heard of that’ or just another mbp with faulty keyboard.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I am curious what Apple says when returning. ‘ I’ve never heard of that’ or just another mbp with faulty keyboard.

The Apple store employees tend to deny deny deny…
I’ve had one level with me but that was in extended conversation while waiting for a new iPhone battery.

 

[Plutonius]

The Apple store employees tend to deny deny deny…

This isn't just Apple. All sales / service employees everywhere seem to learn this lesson early in the job .

 

[Dane95]

If we put Apple's pride to the side for a moment, would it be possible to go in the direction of the scissor-keys in the Magic Keyboard from an engineering point of view or wouldn't they fit inside the thin chassis? They seem to have the flat design that Apple wants without suffering from sticky keys.

I purchased the 2015 MacBook 12-inch (probably the last time I logged into this forum), which was the first machine to receive the butterfly-keyboard treatment. I think my keyboard has been replaced 4 times by now. All free of charge, but I regret to this day that I didn't buy the 2015 MacBook Pro as it was an amazing laptop and around the same price. My keys are still sticky, but I don't want to be without my laptop for a week every other month.

I'd like a new laptop soon, but honestly I can't see myself buying a MacBook with a butterfly keyboard. I like the flat keys and how fast I'm able to type on it, but it's obviously not worth it when the keys get stuck all the time. I might go for a Windows laptop next time around.

 

[Demis013]

I think the key here is that, it isn't stuck debris which causes this issue of double/missed keys but there is some fundamental flaw on how the product registers a key stroke. If it was merely dust, Apple would never have to replace keyboards and would just blast compressed air until it resolved itself.

100% agree on this. It's not the debris, it's the mechanism. Both of my gf's 2018 Macbook Airs showed the exact same issues within 2 days and mine is doing the same now after a bit longer. Also the fact that it always starts around the ''e'' is telling.

I am curious what Apple says when returning. ‘ I’ve never heard of that’ or just another mbp with faulty keyboard.

My girlfriend went back to the Apple store and all their message came down to: ''Omg we can't believe that this has happened to you, we were so sure that the 3rd gen keyboards were free of all the issues of the past''.

I find the suggestion that the issue might be heat-related interesting. It could be that the material (the silicon membrane) changes because of the heat in a way that it becomes less responsive? If that would be the issue it would be something quite isolated and easily fixable I guess (by simply changing the material). I will actively try the responsiveness of the keyboard in the next few days in heated condition versus cooled to see if there's a correlation. \

If I have the feeling that we might be getting our finger behind what causes the problem I might keep the laptop because - besides the ridiculous keyboard issues - simply love it and if we know what causes it we could perhaps steer Apple towards a solution #wishfulthinking

 

[c0ppo]

I do think that it has something to do with heating.

This was my opinion in the last 2+ years. I owned a MB 12 from 2015. No keyboard issues at all. Owned a 2017 version for more then a year. No kb issues at all.

But 3 MBP 15", all had keyboard issues in the matter of 3-4 weeks. Not 'e' key like many others, but every time it was a space bar, and brackets/columns ({}[]).

I used my MBP for game dev, and mbp heated up a lot during the day. Count in VMs and other cpu or gpu intensive stuff, and you get the point. My MB12 was used for email and browsing. And never had any kb issues.

 

[navaira]

My girlfriend went back to the Apple store and all their message came down to: ''Omg we can't believe that this has happened to you, we were so sure that the 3rd gen keyboards were free of all the issues of the past''.

Coincidentally, this is exactly what the Apple Executive Relations (or whatever they're called) said to me over the phone... Multiple times...

 

[Ma2k5]

Coincidentally, this is exactly what the Apple Executive Relations (or whatever they're called) said to me over the phone... Multiple times...

That is clearly a lie, we all know they weren't sure that it was fixed because it was never tested. If it was tested, they'd know for sure it wasn't fixed!

 

[markedlymac]

At least your 2017 has the 4 year keyboard program and they have to fix it for free...As of right now, the 2018 are not included in that program.

In Australia, Consumer Law dictates that if ANY device sold on the market FAILS to work as designed (or intended, or understood, by the consumer at time of purchase), after ANY length of time for which the product is typically expected to last (which can be years for many appliances and devices...and Fair Trading or the state's ombudsman decides if there's a disagreement on that), then the consumer is entitled to FULL remedy (either replacement / repair from the manufacturer, or refund / replacement / repair from the seller), due to the major failure.

We don't even need Apple's inadequate "fit the same defective part into the laptop" Keyboard Service Program to be treated fairly, here in Australia. We can apply it to 2018 units also.

What is depressing is that the 2018 model appears to have the same defect in it anyway (but is it less rates of failure? Do we know yet?). So all we can do, if we want to continue using Apple hardware and/or software (without having to go all Hackintosh on ourselves), is to use our consumer rights to gain replacement units of what is reasonably perceived to be the LEAST defective in Apple's equivalent offering, while through doing this making Apple get the message that WE will not be the ones to suffer for THEIR design defect, and to FIX this awful keyboard once and for all.

If only I had known what took me two months to learn (as forced by Apple's continued denial of my rights, and constant sliminess), I would have come down on them like a hammer in the first instance with the legal knowledge I now have, to gain my 2018 replacement unit much quicker and sooner.

 

[navaira]

What is depressing is that the 2018 model appears to have the same defect in it anyway (but is it less rates of failure? Do we know yet?).

The 1st gen rMB 2016 keeps chugging along for almost two years, we needed to use canned air twice, that was the only problem. The 2018 – as mentioned above someone developed problems within TWO DAYS, plus not just me but others had the MBPs replaced multiple times because of keyboard problems. I have no idea how 2nd gen fares in comparison, but I don't recall anybody having to replace it multiple times because it broke *that* fast...

 

[Queen6]

Coincidentally, this is exactly what the Apple Executive Relations (or whatever they're called) said to me over the phone... Multiple times...

Blatant lies as clearly Apple believes it's customer's are incapable of thinking. I was told that no issue exists and promptly pulled up the keyboard extended warranty page

Apple have always been the same even when MBP dGPU's were dropping like flies Might work on the uninformed, equally treating professional customers like idiots hardly does any favours or gathers graces...

Q-6
[doublepost=1544815769][/doublepost]

The 1st gen rMB 2016 keeps chugging along for almost two years, we needed to use canned air twice, that was the only problem. The 2018 – as mentioned above someone developed problems within TWO DAYS, plus not just me but others had the MBPs replaced multiple times because of keyboard problems. I have no idea how 2nd gen fares in comparison, but I don't recall anybody having to replace it multiple times because it broke *that* fast...

You see problem is, you weren't using as intended, your supposed to just sit and stare at it lovingly, occasionally caressing the keyboard, however you had the audacity to actually use it for purpose It's beyond a joke at this point in time, maybe Tim & Jony have bets on how long they can keep increasing prices and making the MBP less usable, either that or they are incompetent, more likely just don't care as Tim & Co have already stated the future of Apple's computing lies with IPP...

And they still keep buying them...

Q-6

 

[Jg75]

Th

Blatant lies as clearly Apple believes it's customer's are incapable of thinking. I was told that no issue exists and promptly pulled up the keyboard extended warranty page

Apple have always been the same even when MBP dGPU's were dropping like flies Might work on the uninformed, equally treating professional customers like idiots hardly does any favours or gathers graces...

Q-6
[doublepost=1544815769][/doublepost]

You see problem is, you weren't using as intended, your supposed to just sit and stare at it lovingly, occasionally caressing the keyboard, however you had the audacity to actually use it for purpose It's beyond a joke at this point in time, maybe Tim & Jony have bets on how long they can keep increasing prices and making the MBP less usable, either that or they are incompetent, more likely just don't care as Tim & Co have already stated the future of Apple's computing lies with IPP...

View attachment 810756
And they still keep buying them...

Q-6

The future of Apple for consumers/everyday users could well be with the IPP IF they made an external keyboard/trackpad combo, and upgrades to iOS to support this for pages/numbers etc. It should also open up to some degree of local storage and file management for privacy reasons. The "keyboard cover" for the current iPads is not it.

The Microsoft initiative may very well be it, if they can attract more developers to make it a good touch-based OS.

Anyway, if the hardware is crap, there is no question to begin with. I hope they will right the ship, I really like macOS, but if it continues like this, I will have no choice but to abandon the ship. I'm no huge fan of faceID either, I think the touchID 2 on my iP8 is perfect.
[doublepost=1544820180][/doublepost]

Th


The future of Apple for consumers/everyday users could well be with the IPP IF they made an external keyboard/trackpad combo, and upgrades to iOS to support this for pages/numbers etc. It should also open up to some degree of local storage and file management for privacy reasons. The "keyboard cover" for the current iPads is not it.

The Microsoft initiative may very well be it, if they can attract more developers to make it a good touch-based OS.

Anyway, if the hardware is crap, there is no question to begin with. I hope they will right the ship, I really like macOS, but if it continues like this, I will have no choice but to abandon the ship. I'm no huge fan of faceID either, I think the touchID 2 on my iP8 is perfect.

Edit: Apple may say the iCloud is secure etc. blah blah. Consumers like me don't trust it, the cloud is insecure, period. (because of "government" etc. that is above Apple).
We always have the option of systems like Linux. I love everything about the Chromebook except this thing.

 

[navaira]

I expect Apple to announce a Smart Keyboard cover for Macbook Pros next year.

 

[Jg75]

I expect Apple to announce a Smart Keyboard cover for Macbook Pros next year.

LOL that's a good one.

 

[Alameda]

My MBP 18 keyboard is acting up already.

What’s the replacement procedure? In-store while you wait, or ship it off for weeks?

 

[idonthatethemac]

I expect Apple to announce a Smart Keyboard cover for Macbook Pros next year.

But see.. IMHO this doesn't really help the situation. I know you said "Smart" keyboard cover and probably sarcastic.

I am not a hardware engineer by any stretch of imagination and I did nearly bottle my earlier custom build, when i cheaped out on the air circulation few years back. My Rig would heat up like crazy. I started using a BIG $20 fan to keep it cool. Bandaid solution... Not very efficient. Finally I caved and added heat sink and couple of extra fans to improve the air circulation. Performance improved quite a bit and I was able to categorize it as "not a fire hazard"

And if you think about it, in MBPs there are no exit at the bottom, even sides has a minimum exit points, the heat sink and thermal pads (not sure if there are any but lets say they are there) is not enough for MBPs (I7s and I9s) at least.

I get a feeling that keyboard cover will act as a heat trap and can cause more damage. probably make the keyboard fail faster.

If that happens, whats next perforated keyboard covers?

The best solution is to get Apple to fix the design issues in keyboard. I seriously cannot fathom how Apple came down to this... pos keyboard.

 

[Plutonius]

My MBP 18 keyboard is acting up already.

What’s the replacement procedure? In-store while you wait, or ship it off for weeks?

If you get a replacement, it will most likely also fail.

If Apple says you need a replacement, they have to replace the entire top cover which would mean that they would send it out. Your best bet is to clean it yourself following the Apple approved method. Many people posting here indicated that the method worked for them.

If cleaning it yourself does not work, take it in the Apple service.
[doublepost=1544825957][/doublepost]

I expect Apple to announce a Smart Keyboard cover for Macbook Pros next year.

I believe that Apple will eventually end up with a touch screen keyboard in the laptops.

 

[Jg75]

If you get a replacement, it will most likely also fail.

If Apple says you need a replacement, they have to replace the entire top cover which would mean that they would send it out. Your best bet is to clean it yourself following the Apple approved method. Many people posting here indicated that the method worked for them.

If cleaning it yourself does not work, take it in the Apple service.
[doublepost=1544825957][/doublepost]

I believe that Apple will eventually end up with a touch screen keyboard in the laptops.

If hope they fix the current generation keyboards before they try that one.

 

[Demis013]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to give a small update since my first encounters with the repeating letters-issue. This week has been (to my complete surprise) issue-free. I've used my MBP2018 extensively at work (writing articles, typing along with conferences etc, in other words: stuff that makes you want to have a perfectly functioning keyboard) and I didn't have any unintended letter repeat. I did have the Unshaky app on, and it reports that since I've installed it (like a week ago) it has already ''prevented'' 276 unintended repeats, so it's not like my keyboard miraculously became the MBP keyboard we've all longed for. But it's a workaround that makes me able to do my job without any frustrations. I just hope that it stays like this. I still have all of next week to decide whether I'll return and get my money back.

But for now I'm leaning more towards keeping it and hoping it will remain stable as it is now... which at the same time sounds totally stupid for a laptop in this price range.

 

[Jg75]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to give a small update since my first encounters with the repeating letters-issue. This week has been (to my complete surprise) issue-free. I've used my MBP2018 extensively at work (writing articles, typing along with conferences etc, in other words: stuff that makes you want to have a perfectly functioning keyboard) and I didn't have any unintended letter repeat. I did have the Unshaky app on, and it reports that since I've installed it (like a week ago) it has already ''prevented'' 276 unintended repeats, so it's not like my keyboard miraculously became the MBP keyboard we've all longed for. But it's a workaround that makes me able to do my job without any frustrations. I just hope that it stays like this. I still have all of next week to decide whether I'll return and get my money back.

But for now I'm leaning more towards keeping it and hoping it will remain stable as it is now... which at the same time sounds totally stupid for a laptop in this price range.

Return it and run for your life.
That means, get a 2015 MBP or 2017 MBA.
[doublepost=1544830502][/doublepost]You would probably think newer is better. It is not.

 

[markedlymac]

So another Executive Liaison rang me back the night before last to organise replacement of my current 2017 unit with a 2018 one, as mentioned.

Get this:

My current unit has an RRP of AUD $4,419.00 (an RRP that was live on the market until 12 July 2018), and I paid $4,325.00 for mine, at a slight sales discount.

So that's my current model. which has a major failure.

Over the phone on Thursday night, Mr Executive Liaison was ONLY offering me a replacement model with an RRP of $4,099.00! $320 less, and at that, a configuration with a waste-of-money 2.6GHz CPU (cos we all know the 2.6/2.9GHz CPU performance on the 2018 model doesn't even reach those gigahertz due to bad and rushed hardware design).

So even though there are configurations which either match my current unit's RRP, or are a tiny bit more (and I even offered to pay a pittance $40 extra for the slightly different configuration of the 2018 model that I wanted which is $4,459.00), he refused to offer it, saying he "can't". Of course he can!

What he DID accept was if I paid for the difference of that $4,459.00 configuration over his "this or nothing" $4,099.00 offer - NOT the difference between the value of that and what I've already paid for, which is just $40 (or if Apple want to be stingy and go by my actual purchase price, $134.00). They're trying to force me to pay $360 which I am not obligated to at all!

What a scam! Are Apple used to their pro customers throwing $1000's around to 'just buy another macbook' as a customer culture, so they're used to getting away with this?

They're not thinking about their wider reputation, long-term.

I will be on the phone to ACCC early next week to enquire about their guidelines which state, "When the consumer chooses a replacement ... The supplier must provide goods of an identical type."

Does this rule apply to the retail value of a replacement device vs. original device when there is no 'identical' specification equivalent, which in this case, there isn't? I'll find out, and report back.

For such an expensive business computing device FULLY customisable on both price and specification when issuing replacements, I am breath-taken at how Apple think they can scam their customers into paying THEM extra money just to have a fair equivalent replacement be given to the customer, when the entire situation was their fault!

Apple's lack of good will reveals a coldness in their business model, to put it politely. They do not care about their customers.

 

[Queen6]

So another Executive Liaison rang me back the night before last to organise replacement of my current 2017 unit with a 2018 one, as mentioned.

Get this:

My current unit has an RRP of AUD $4,419.00 (an RRP that was live on the market until 12 July 2018), and I paid $4,325.00 for mine, at a slight sales discount.

So that's my current model. which has a major failure.

Over the phone on Thursday night, Mr Executive Liaison was ONLY offering me a replacement model with an RRP of $4,099.00! $320 less, and at that, a configuration with a waste-of-money 2.6GHz CPU (cos we all know the 2.6/2.9GHz CPU performance on the 2018 model doesn't even reach those gigahertz due to bad and rushed hardware design).

So even though there are configurations which either match my current unit's RRP, or are a tiny bit more (and I even offered to pay a pittance $40 extra for the slightly different configuration of the 2018 model that I wanted which is $4,459.00), he refused to offer it, saying he "can't". Of course he can!

What he DID accept was if I paid for the difference of that $4,459.00 configuration over his "this or nothing" $4,099.00 offer - NOT the difference between the value of that and what I've already paid for, which is just $40 (or if Apple want to be stingy and go by my actual purchase price, $134.00). They're trying to force me to pay $360 which I am not obligated to at all!

What a scam! Are Apple used to their pro customers throwing $1000's around to 'just buy another macbook' as a customer culture, so they're used to getting away with this?

They're not thinking about their wider reputation, long-term.

I will be on the phone to ACCC early next week to enquire about their guidelines which state, "When the consumer chooses a replacement ... The supplier must provide goods of an identical type."

Does this rule apply to the retail value of a replacement device vs. original device when there is no 'identical' specification equivalent, which in this case, there isn't? I'll find out, and report back.

For such an expensive business computing device FULLY customisable on both price and specification when issuing replacements, I am breath-taken at how Apple think they can scam their customers into paying THEM extra money just to have a fair equivalent replacement be given to the customer, when the entire situation was their fault!

Apple's lack of good will reveals a coldness in their business model, to put it politely. They do not care about their customers.

Apple only cares about one thing $$$$ simple as that, it's whole system is designed to force up sales and extract additional money from it's user base. This also why Apple want's to kill third party repair's so it can get away with this, with no other options open to the customer

As companies plateau they still need to grow revenue to appease the shareholders, this why we are seeing rising prices, value diminishing and nickel & diming across the board as Apple is currently out of innovation. So Apple is compelled to follow this path. Many will remain being unaware or unconcerned, equally many professional's will simply move off the platform as the hardware & software become ever less relevant...

In this case if Apple does not have an equivalent model, an upgrade to the customer is appropriate, not a forced downgrade or an additional fee, as fundamentally the root cause is Apple and it's inadequate design and qualification process.

Q-6