Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[Falhófnir]

I'm in pretty good shape, but I sometimes need to walk all over town and I'm often carrying almost 10lbs of camera gear already. Every ounce starts to add up when you do that, but I'm basing my experiences on going from a 2012 to a 2016. That's was a diet of 1.5lbs.

A 2015 would have already been considerably thinner and lighter than a 2012 at 4.5lbs. I probably wouldn't have had a problem with that, but if you asked me how much I'd value shedding just 1lb off of my laptop before I switched to a 2016, I would have scoffed that 1lb would be any difference. I used to be one of those meatheads.

I'm not anymore though and my neck and shoulders don't hurt as much as they used to. That alone converted me into a fan of thinner and lighter.

Oh so you're coming from a unibody? In that case it's a different ballgame, those machines were pretty tanky (fantastically robust though!) I would say the real difference with the 15" touchbar MacBook pro over the retina version was the actual size in terms of footprint and thinness, I would be really hard pressed to say it felt meaningfully lighter even if it is 0.5lbs on paper. Personally I really like the Touchbar form factor, but I really don't like the compromises they've made to get there, particularly as the KB goes...

 

[smirking]

Oh so you're coming from a unibody? In that case it's a different ballgame, those machines were pretty tanky (fantastically robust though!)

The weight difference between my old unibody and my tbMBP is oly 1.5lbs, but it feels like it's a lot more when I pick it up or when I slide it in a shoulder bag. The weight in the tbMBP is a lot more evenly distributed. I think that contributes to it feeling even lighter than it actually is. I suppose that could be one hidden benefit of the non-user replaceable terraced battery. Is it also a terraced battery in a 2015?

Indeed the unibodies were pretty robust. I still have a 2009 in use as a backup laptop and my wife has my old 2012. I've had to repair both of them and the keyboards on both are pretty degraded, but they work.

I actually never liked the MBP keyboards until the butterfly keys. The only issues I have with mine are that the up and down arrow keys are excessively stiff. All MBP keyboards up until the butterfly keys made my hands hurt.

 

[Jg75]

Apple (JOBS) already made the perfect laptop, it is called the MacBook Air. Now if they could just upgrade the screen..
I guess they are not going to, so ......

 

[Anarchy99]

Apple (JOBS) already made the perfect laptop, it is called the MacBook Air. Now if they could just upgrade the screen..
I guess they are not going to, so ......

i would say the same about the 2012-2015 rMBP except they just need to keep current hardware/standards in it.

 

[navaira]

Back on topic: my 2018 keyboard is still working fine, I can type faster on it than the previous one, and unlike some I suffer no fatigue from it at all. But it is bloody noisy! Clearly Apple's "design" focus is limited to visual aspects...

I am immediately wondering whether they've changed something, because when I got my five MBPs I kept thinking "finally, this keyboard feels, but also sounds lovely, not so damn loud anymore"...

 

[interessiert]

First Mac and 1 week in use, 2017 NTB, already occasionally keys little bit stuck. My solution is to keep the Mac upside down and blow some air between the keys, which 'solves' the problem. As more as I am reading about this it seems like the 3rd gen is even worse, since it will be impossible to blow debris out because of the condom thing.

But seriously, how is is possible to release a product and not even test something simple as the keyboard?? Does Apple test MacBooks only in clean rooms?

Testing? Waste of money !

It's not only a question of "clean rooms...".

This butterfly keyboard construction provides several problems:
1. Mechanical obstacles by dust, dirt
2. To small tolerances for contact recognition (electronic function failure) of keys
3. 2018 version: Membrane will vary depending on heat exposure

It's a mess – and the Apple guys play games with themselves and customers since 3 years and no end in sight

How long they work destroying their image?
[doublepost=1547368147][/doublepost]

When I picked up my laptop - I've asked the guy if its the same type of keyboard, he replied "not, its a newer version like in 2018 model".

From the personal experience - it feels different to type ("more softer") maybe because it's new.

UPD:
by "replaced keyboard" I mean that the whole top case + battery were replaced.

Nevertheless: Forget it – you've got the same stuff as before in your machine (not compatible) – so be prepared to give back for repair asap you realize the next failures!

One advantage of this membraneless butterfly gen 2: you can try to clean single keys with pressure air
[doublepost=1547368690][/doublepost]

Absolutely agree with this. Although many of us are heavily invested into Apple's ecosystem, both hardware and software-wise, not to mention services. Having a laptop with non-functional keyboard is abysmal, but many of us are just looking for temporary solutions, just something to mitigate what seems to be one of the greatest design failures in Apple's history. More so, because as of introduction of the new Air, there are NO working keyboards in Apple's laptop portfolio. The only remaining solution is the Magic Keyboard, which ironically is one of the best keyboards in my opinion.

I'm not sure you're right:
The iMac Magic Keyboard shows failures, too.

Because of Bluetooth (shortest) connection gaps, you get often one or 2 letters less than you've surely tipped – you know this phenomenon?

 

[interessiert]

This thread is a sad read.
I had a 2016 for 3 months, until speaker blew and keyboard issue. Replaced with a 2017. It was good for 12+ months until it killed three external drives and was found to have highly variable USB power, 2x new usb chips and Logic board a week ago. Now keyboard is double pressing keys on this one. And it seems the 2018 has its own problems also! Thinking about buying an older model on ebay!

The best you cab do! Don't hesitate – as long you can get ones...
[doublepost=1547373326][/doublepost]

Problem is who at Apple is going to say we need better machines and will take less profit. Big investors are starting to take control.

The origin of Apple's disease isn't money – or better to say: maybe too much of it!

The origin are wrong guidelines and loss of free brain exchange and clear view to what customer needs (ergonomics in widest sense) because of elder dominant statues like Jony IVE and maybe also Phil SCHILLER under a weak Tim COOK...
[doublepost=1547373907][/doublepost]

No, you're confused. All MBPs from 2008-2015 use the same keyboard, the scissor switch mechanism keyboard. They are all exactly identical.

The 2016 uses the generation 1 butterfly keyboard, and it has physically larger keys than the 2008-2015 models. Gen 1 is covered by a 4 year extended warranty.

The 2017 uses the generation 2 butterfly keyboard, which looks the same as the 2016 keyboard. Gen 2 is covered by a 4 year extended warranty.

The 2018 uses the generation 3 butterfly keyboard, which is identical to the 2017 keyboard except it has a silicone membrane around each key. Gen 3 currently is NOT covered by a 4 year extended warranty, but eventually I'm sure it will be, sometime once the calendar turns 2019.

The actual assembly build date of your machine has nothing to do with the keyboard that goes inside it, the keyboard it has is based solely on the model year of the machine. I have a brand new 2015 machine that was built in July of this year (Apple sold the 2015 model through July) and, because it's a 2015 model, it has the 2008-2015 scissor keyboard.

Less alone the Mac Book 2015 with ugly butterfly mechanism (1rst gen)
[doublepost=1547374730][/doublepost]

Based on the things I'm reading here I'm starting to get a perception that every MBP 2018/2017/2016 will have a keyboard issue and it's making me paranoid and scared to actually purchase one. Is this the case for +90% of the units or it's only isolated cases?

Sometimes a pseudo-paranoia is a helpful remedy and better keep precautious thumb up!

 

[interessiert]

Only Apple really knows. But there are people who’ve never had problems, and there are cases (one of which I’ve seen firsthand) of most of the computers in an office having problems.

Of course !

This is not an imagination of some fools...

The "foolish" gamblers are sitting elsewhere
[doublepost=1547378489][/doublepost]

Like the TrackPad. It feels like its being depressed, but its not. Very tactile.

Forget it fast
[doublepost=1547379821][/doublepost]

Thought I would provide an update to this.

I'm now on week ~4-5 of the replacement I received. As above, I've continued having problems with the space bar (and seemingly only the space bar - haven't noticed any problems with other keys). Unfortunately, the key has now become frequently unresponsive, which is something that can't be fixed with Unshaky. This problem causes my typing to slow so much that I've started carrying my damn Apple bluetooth keyboard with me in my bag because typing on the keyboard is just pointless. Having to correct ~50% of words due to failure of the space bar is just ridiculous. I now use the bluetooth keyboard instead of the actual keyboard on the machine.

Went to the Apple Store today and was told that they'll send it in for repair. I was also told by the "genius" that "there are still some kinks in the new keyboard."

So, here we go, I guess. I'm less than thrilled about the prospect of sending in a new machine for repair. I'm worried about them doing a ****** job and just causing more problems down the line. But what can I do? I told them that I simply received a replacement when this happened before and was told that this was because there was an "extended holiday return period" at that time (wtf?). I'm now out of the return period, so I guess I'm stuck on this rollercoaster ride for the life of this machine.

If going to an Apple Store, waiting for 30+ minutes after my "reservation" time to meet with someone for 1 minute only to tell me that they'll "send it in," and actually being without my (only) computer for several days wasn't so inconvenient, I wouldn't mind just getting repeat replacements every time this happens. But, again, I guess I have no choice.

Sigh.

Keep obstinate!

In round 3 you ask your money back!
[doublepost=1547380068][/doublepost]

Me too after 6 weeks with it. But since the 1st and 2nd gen butterfly keyboards caused so many problems I already bought the Apple Care Protection Plan for my 13" MBP. Better be safe than sorry.

Especially because of this tricky membrane the failures caused by dust and dirt will happen maybe after several years – and for 2018 MBP you get (until now) no repair program...
[doublepost=1547380187][/doublepost]

How could it even work? It takes more than a condom (especially a condom with holes on it) to fix a major design issue. The condom only slows down dust ingress (as tested by iFixit, https://ifixit.org/blog/10319/butterfly-keyboard-teardown/), does not prevent it and it also makes the old compressed air fix much harder to apply as the condom works both ways. Accidental Tech Podcast guys called it the Hotel California keyboard, which is quite an appropriate term for it.

In addition, the condom doesn’t do anything to those scenarios where the keyboard starts malfunctioning once the computer heats up and heat expansion and ultra-tight tolerances start their inevitable conflict. If anything, the condom is most likely to make heat-related issues worse.

Totally right!
[doublepost=1547381798][/doublepost]

I have been wondering about this as well. Then again, googling for thermal images of MBPs indicates that the hottest spot is under the keys T, Y and 6, whereas I seem to read primarily of E, Space and cursor keys failing first.(?) Those are rather cool, but likely to get used a lot.

The thermal interference to butterfly keyboard failures isn't a direct temperature result, it's more the mid- and longterm change of elasticity and shape of the covering membrane (an not to forget: later dirt and dust under the butterfly arms, that prevent accurate, precise floor contact). E.g. keep MBP away from sun etc. !

 

[Plutonius]

loss of free brain exchange and clear view to what customer needs (ergonomics in widest sense) because of elder dominant statues like Jony IVE and maybe also Phil SCHILLER under a weak Tim COOK...

I would have to disagree.

In the past, the focus was on selling product.

Now, I believe the focus is on stock prices.

 

[537635]

I'm not sure you're right:
The iMac Magic Keyboard shows failures, too.

Because of Bluetooth (shortest) connection gaps, you get often one or 2 letters less than you've surely tipped – you know this phenomenon?

I used Magic Keyboards a lot before purchasing 2016 MBP. Zero issues. I have never seen what you're describing. Nor have I seen extensive online threads like this one, where users one after the other have productivity nightmares because of faulty keyboards.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I'm not sure you're right:
The iMac Magic Keyboard shows failures, too.

Because of Bluetooth (shortest) connection gaps, you get often one or 2 letters less than you've surely tipped – you know this phenomenon?

I know of nobody ever having issues with the Magic Keyboard, myself included.
Any threads you could point us to?

 

[pashok3d]

Intro: Live in Poland. Europe. I have never had aby macbooks. Was going to buy MBA 2018 until stumbled onto this thread.

Visited AppleStore (actually we don’t have AppleStores, but ISpots) tried out 3d generation keyboard and everything was ok. Later went to another distributor and here we go - MBP with TB wasn’t regestring „n” key for about 5 seconds, then it started to work properly. Nasty magic.

 

[Mackinjosh]

I know of nobody ever having issues with the Magic Keyboard, myself included.
Any threads you could point us to?

My dad has a magic keyboard that came with his iMac. He spilled a beer on it and the bloody thing still works like a champ despite having a couple sticky keys for a week or two. At the moment I have my own magic keyboard sitting directly on top of my MBP's keyboard due to the MBP's keyboard being unusable due to a dead key. No issues whatsoever with my Magic keyboard.

 

[navaira]

At the moment I have my own magic keyboard sitting directly on top of my MBP's keyboard due to the MBP's keyboard being unusable due to a dead key. No issues whatsoever with my Magic keyboard.

Apple: "Very small percentage of users noticed very minor failures of the MBP keyboards. Still, for those very few affected individuals, a simple solution is using double-sided tape to glue a Magic Keyboard to the MBP's original keyboard. Problem = solved!"

 

[Plutonius]

Apple: "Very small percentage of users noticed very minor failures of the MBP keyboards. Still, for those very few affected individuals, a simple solution is using double-sided tape to glue a Magic Keyboard to the MBP's original keyboard. Problem = solved!"

At least Apple isn't recommending that we use duct tape on our keyboards .

 

[LeonRS]

Just sharing my experience here.

I bought a 2016 MBP 15" around mid 2017, and got the same issues everybody else was having as well (sticky keys, non-registrations, double-registrations, keys that wouldn't go down). Usually, each individual key issue would last between a few hours and a week or two, and go away again. After living without the left shift key for two weeks in ~October 2018 I've had enough and I handed it in to the store to get the keyboard replaced, and got a 3rd gen top case installed. Ever since that I was pretty happy with the new keyboard: To me, the feel is improved and I think I can type faster on these slightly more responsive keys.

However, a few weeks ago the dust issues started coming up again. So far no sticky keys and no double-registrations, but every now and then a key can't be fully pressed down. It usually goes away again within a day or so, but it's a pain in the A while it lasts. Off of the top of my head I remember having this issue with the #/' key, backspace, and - happening right now - enter. Luckily, I'm on a German QWERTZ keyboard with a tall enter key, and only the bottom half can't be pressed down, but the top half still works.

What's the way to go from here? Hand it in for a new keyboard every 6 months until the program runs out for my MBP in mid 2021, then sell it to some poor shmuck? The prospect of Apple possibly never fixing the issue for this line of MBPs is pretty bleak. What else can we hope for if after almost 3 years with the issue, Apple hasn't even officially acknowledged its existence? I'm really hoping they change their approach in some aspects in response to crashing stock prices (honesty, real customer support, solid engineering and non-ridiculous pricing come to mind).

 

[mac_in_tosh]

The prospect of Apple possibly never fixing the issue for this line of MBPs is pretty bleak. What else can we hope for if after almost 3 years with the issue, Apple hasn't even officially acknowledged its existence? I'm really hoping they change their approach in some aspects in response to crashing stock prices (honesty, real customer support, solid engineering and non-ridiculous pricing come to mind).

It appears that their fixation on making things thinner has finally caught up with Apple. If the butterfly keyboard problems continue with gen 3, then the logical thing to do would be to scrap this design and go with something completely different. That may not happen for a while - do we get gen 4 this year? - given Apple's arrogance and reluctance to even acknowledge the problems.

 

[smirking]

What's the way to go from here?

I had on and off again issues with my 2016 for a year and it actually got better the more I used the keyboard. At least in my case, it worked better after getting broken in. The keys stuck less as time went on and I haven’t had a single jam in over a year.

I fixed the jams by pressing the key down and jiggling slowly in a clockwise and counterclockwise direction. It’s the same thing I do on ALPS mechanicals that are acting up. Give that a try.

 

[LeonRS]

I had on and off again issues with my 2016 for a year and it actually got better the more I used the keyboard. At least in my case, it worked better after getting broken in. The keys stuck less as time went on and I haven’t had a single jam in over a year.

I fixed the jams by pressing the key down and jiggling slowly in a clockwise and counterclockwise direction. It’s the same thing I do on ALPS mechanicals that are acting up. Give that a try.

Maybe Apple should hand out Macbook massage manuals like that. Didn't really work though, bottom part of the enter key is still kinda jammed, or at least requires significantly more pressure to press than any other key, so it often fails to register my inputs. But it'll hopefully sort itself out in a few days.

 

[TonyK]

There are developers on the other side of our building, entirely MacOS based. I know one who has a 2018 MBP and has been using it hard, connected to 2 monitors and using the trackpad and keyboard of the MBP. So far they are reporting NO issues.

Being developers they are running local servers and other things.

 

[LeonRS]

There are developers on the other side of our building, entirely MacOS based. I know one who has a 2018 MBP and has been using it hard, connected to 2 monitors and using the trackpad and keyboard of the MBP. So far they are reporting NO issues.

Being developers they are running local servers and other things.

Not sure how "using it hard" is to be interpreted, but a clean work environment is probably less of an issue than home use on the couch / bed / breakfast table. Still, a laptop (any laptop) has to keep working in those environments, as it's a very regular use case. At the very least, any such issues should be user-serviceable and not require a 220€ piece to be replaced once every few months.

 

[smirking]

Not sure how "using it hard" is to be interpreted, but a clean work environment is probably less of an issue than home use on the couch / bed / breakfast table. Still, a laptop (any laptop) has to keep working in those environments, as it's a very regular use case. At the very least, any such issues should be user-serviceable and not require a 220€ piece to be replaced once every few months.

I remain doubtful that dust is truly the culprit. If it's truly susceptible to a modest amount of dust, there has to be something else going on that is leaving some builds to be susceptible and others not. The true culprit might be something even more embarrassing... like that perhaps there is simply a higher than normal manufacturing failure rate and dust or no dust, you really have no control.

People always like to feel like they have control. They'd sell more laptops if they told you that your keyboard will be fine as long as you keep it very clean vs saying that if your unit is going to fail, almost nothing you do is going to change its fate.

Anyway, mine doesn't seem to have an issue with dust. I'm not that careful to begin with and am even less so now. I actually allowed my keyboard to get really nasty last month because I realized my battery is degrading ahead of schedule and I'll be able to get a topcase replacement before AppleCare runs out. I'm going to end up with a new keyboard anyway so I just decided to let go of what little maintenance I did and see what happened.

I didn't abuse it, but it did get ugly enough that I wouldn't want anyone to see it. I ended up wiping it off after a month because it was starting gross me out.

 

[Plutonius]

and got a 3rd gen top case installed. Ever since that I was pretty happy with the new keyboard:

Do you know that Apple replaced your first generation keyboard with a a third generation keyboard and not a second generation keyboard ?

Apple has stated that third generation keyboards are only for 2018 models.

A second generation keyboard can replace a first generation keyboard (upper case).

 

[LeonRS]

Do you know that Apple replaced your first generation keyboard with a a third generation keyboard and not a second generation keyboard ?

Apple has stated that third generation keyboards are only for 2018 models.

A second generation keyboard can replace a first generation keyboard (upper case).

Wait, I thought they would replace it with a third gen, but apparently I was wrong (just googled to check). The touchbar generation MBPs (2016), to the best of my knowledge, came with the 2nd gen all along (1st gen was in the 2015 non-pro MacBooks). I was assuming I got a 3rd gen, because the keys feel a little more responsive/springy and less sticky when they work correctly. But ok, maybe the original 2nd gen keyboard was just a bad sample in that regard.

Still, just to make sure I'm getting it right, here's what Apple did:
1) they acknowledge an issue with a "small" number of keyboards, which is nonetheless large enough to give rise to a class action lawsuit somehow
2) they come up with a "patch" to the issue, which consists of sort of a rubber seal and call that 3rd gen
3) they tell everyone 3rd gen doesn't fix any reliability issues
4) they start an exchange program for 2nd gen, and they decide to replace the faulty 2nd gen with more 2nd gen keyboards that have the same issue

Can somebody explain what the hell they're trying to do here? Yes, (4) is in line with their statement in (3), but I'm not sure anyone truly believes they only fixed it for the sound it makes? I mean, they release a new keyboard (2nd gen) and EVERYBODY is crying out that their keys stop working. Then they go ahead and re-engineer it for the single purpose of making it a tad quieter, but don't address the one issue everyone was complaining about? Possible? Yes. Plausible? Press X for doubt.

X.

And regarding the "low percentage" of keyboards affected: Let's do some math.
As it would appear, I'm on my second 2nd gen keyboard, which is also starting to have the issue now, after about 3-4 months of use. Add to that my ex's 2016 13" MBP, also with the 2nd gen keyboard, which was the first one in this household to have the typical issues. So we're 3 for 3 when it comes to failing 2nd gen keyboards.
Let's say anything below 10% would be a "low percentage". Put these numbers in a Poisson distribution, and we find that at a base rate of 10%, the probability of getting 3 affected keyboards in a sample of size 3 is 0.00015, or 0.015%. So if Apple says that the number of affected keyboards is low, based on my personal experience (3 keyboards) I can say there's a 0.015% chance of them being truthful.
Of course, it could be that most MBPs are kept in, I suppose, less dusty environments and thus never develop the symptoms, but that doesn't mean that those keyboards would be "resistant" to the issue in any way. And if it really is a matter of the environment more than the specific sample one gets, then how is exchanging it for another 2nd get keyboard gonna help anyone? (Also I'd say that my use case is nothing out of the ordinary. I use it a lot, yes, but no differently from the 2 previous MBPs I've owned, which never had a single issue with the keyboard. My ex was even particularly careful about hers.)

And as I type this, my enter key has gotten worse, with the top half now also being kinda stuck.

(I do realize that this thread is technically not the right place for discussing my issues, as I was wrong about having a 3rd gen keyboard, so I apologize for that.)

 

[mac_in_tosh]

So if Apple says that the number of affected keyboards is low, based on my personal experience (3 keyboards) I can say there's a 0.015% chance of them being truthful.

It's unfortunate how the company that we have supported over the years with the "Apple tax" has changed - their quality control is not what it used to be and they are slow to acknowledge problems, if ever, when they arise. And for this they keep charging more and more.