Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[Plutonius]

Wait, I thought they would replace it with a third gen, but apparently I was wrong (just googled to check). The touchbar generation MBPs (2016), to the best of my knowledge, came with the 2nd gen all along (1st gen was in the 2015 non-pro MacBooks). I was assuming I got a 3rd gen, because the keys feel a little more responsive/springy and less sticky when they work correctly. But ok, maybe the original 2nd gen keyboard was just a bad sample in that regard.

Still, just to make sure I'm getting it right, here's what Apple did:
1) they acknowledge an issue with a "small" number of keyboards, which is nonetheless large enough to give rise to a class action lawsuit somehow
2) they come up with a "patch" to the issue, which consists of sort of a rubber seal and call that 3rd gen
3) they tell everyone 3rd gen doesn't fix any reliability issues
4) they start an exchange program for 2nd gen, and they decide to replace the faulty 2nd gen with more 2nd gen keyboards that have the same issue

Can somebody explain what the hell they're trying to do here? Yes, (4) is in line with their statement in (3), but I'm not sure anyone truly believes they only fixed it for the sound it makes? I mean, they release a new keyboard (2nd gen) and EVERYBODY is crying out that their keys stop working. Then they go ahead and re-engineer it for the single purpose of making it a tad quieter, but don't address the one issue everyone was complaining about? Possible? Yes. Plausible? Press X for doubt.

X.

And regarding the "low percentage" of keyboards affected: Let's do some math.
As it would appear, I'm on my second 2nd gen keyboard, which is also starting to have the issue now, after about 3-4 months of use. Add to that my ex's 2016 13" MBP, also with the 2nd gen keyboard, which was the first one in this household to have the typical issues. So we're 3 for 3 when it comes to failing 2nd gen keyboards.
Let's say anything below 10% would be a "low percentage". Put these numbers in a Poisson distribution, and we find that at a base rate of 10%, the probability of getting 3 affected keyboards in a sample of size 3 is 0.00015, or 0.015%. So if Apple says that the number of affected keyboards is low, based on my personal experience (3 keyboards) I can say there's a 0.015% chance of them being truthful.
Of course, it could be that most MBPs are kept in, I suppose, less dusty environments and thus never develop the symptoms, but that doesn't mean that those keyboards would be "resistant" to the issue in any way. And if it really is a matter of the environment more than the specific sample one gets, then how is exchanging it for another 2nd get keyboard gonna help anyone? (Also I'd say that my use case is nothing out of the ordinary. I use it a lot, yes, but no differently from the 2 previous MBPs I've owned, which never had a single issue with the keyboard. My ex was even particularly careful about hers.)

And as I type this, my enter key has gotten worse, with the top half now also being kinda stuck.

(I do realize that this thread is technically not the right place for discussing my issues, as I was wrong about having a 3rd gen keyboard, so I apologize for that.)

One advantage of the second generation butterfly keyboard is the ability to clean it with pressurized air. With the membrane on the third generation keyboard, it doesn't work.

Follow this support document from Apple and it should help you out.

Note - I consider having to do this procedure unacceptable but it does work in many cases. The only other option is to take it to Apple and have them replace the keyboard again.

 

[synergize]

One advantage of the second generation butterfly keyboard is the ability to clean it with pressurized air. With the membrane on the third generation keyboard, it doesn't work.

Follow this support document from Apple and it should help you out.

Note - I consider having to do this procedure unacceptable but it does work in many cases. The only other option is to take it to Apple and have them replace the keyboard again.

Who buys (pays for) the air?

 

[iMacedonian]

Oh wow, I'm unwatching this thread, it's too depressing.

 

[Plutonius]

Who buys (pays for) the air?

Not Apple .

Just consider it part of the price Apple wants us to pay on the MacBook Pro besides the docks we need to purchase.

I was checking out an electric air cleaner for electronics.

 

[sg9]

I wonder what's happening with big companies like IBM after switching to Macs with all these keyboard problems.

 

[poorcody]

I wonder what's happening with big companies like IBM after switching to Macs with all these keyboard problems.

From Computerworld:

IBM says it is 3X more expensive to manage PCs than Macs
Saving up to $535 per Mac per four years in comparison to PCs

https://www.computerworld.com/artic...-are-even-cheaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html​

 

[sg9]

From Computerworld:

IBM says it is 3X more expensive to manage PCs than Macs
Saving up to $535 per Mac per four years in comparison to PCs

https://www.computerworld.com/artic...-are-even-cheaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html​

The article is from Oct 19 2016, before the 2016 MBP was introduced.

 

[Mackinjosh]

From Computerworld:

IBM says it is 3X more expensive to manage PCs than Macs
Saving up to $535 per Mac per four years in comparison to PCs

https://www.computerworld.com/artic...-are-even-cheaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html​

That article is Pre-garbage keyboard redesign.

 

[poorcody]

The article is from Oct 19 2016, before the 2016 MBP was introduced.

Ugh, sorry, having one of those mornings... I guess I somehow chopped off the second-half of my post:

From AppleInsider:

IBM seeing great returns on over 277,000 Macs and iOS devices issued to employees

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...7000-macs-and-ios-devices-issued-to-employees​

Notice in the slide it shows support calls staying around the same (or maybe dropping on average) after 2016.

 

[sg9]

So, no sign of problem judging from these stats. They increased the number of active macbooks by 50 000 in last two years.

 

[jerryk]

I know from corporate users I work with that they are not having extradinary keyboard issues with their 2018 13" and 15" MBPs. One group I work closely with has about 75 and no keyboard issues. At that company they probably have about 1,000 MBPs from 2015-2018.

 

[TonyK]

Not sure how "using it hard" is to be interpreted, but a clean work environment is probably less of an issue than home use on the couch / bed / breakfast table. Still, a laptop (any laptop) has to keep working in those environments, as it's a very regular use case. At the very least, any such issues should be user-serviceable and not require a 220€ piece to be replaced once every few months.

They tend to eat at their desks and it is anything but a "clean" environment.

Hard use? Most programmers are not touch typist. Even some touch typists are hard on their keyboards. Programmers tend to be worse. I've watched them (one has a 2017 and the other a 2018) and they really do pound on their keyboards and eat food while working.

All that can be said is no one from this group has reported any issues and I've actually asked them point blank.

 

[WickedPorter]

FYI: I support Macs in my place of business ... Personally I've had my hands on 6-7 different butterfly equipped Macs since 2015 and my department has about 45 models deployed right now ranging from the 2016 (gen 1 butterfly) to current models with gen 3.

Aside from people complaining about the feel and short travel, we've only had one machine that had to go in for repair and it failed on day 1 of unboxing (keys not registering or repeating). This was a 2016 15" model. We may be lucky.

 

[Mackinjosh]

Getting a 2017 or 2018 13 inch MBP soon and was wondering if it vents heat through the keys. I ask because I am considering a keyboard cover for protection from dust and debris. It also dampens the noise of the keys, which is another benefit. Am I doing any harm by covering the keys in such a way?

 

[Never mind]

Just another one

 

[Falhófnir]

Just another one

Surely enough has got to be enough after going through 4 versions in 4 years and still not getting it right? Just go with a keyboard because it offers the best typing experience, not because it fits in an ultra slim enclosure and is 'good enough' - they've got a well praised magic keyboard they could use as a basis. Build the laptop around key components like the KB rather than designing a KB that will fit inside your machine =P

 

[Cashmonee]

Ugh, sorry, having one of those mornings... I guess I somehow chopped off the second-half of my post:

From AppleInsider:

IBM seeing great returns on over 277,000 Macs and iOS devices issued to employees

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...7000-macs-and-ios-devices-issued-to-employees​

Notice in the slide it shows support calls staying around the same (or maybe dropping on average) after 2016.

This continues the trend of actual data that shows the 2016+ gen to be more reliable than older models and maintaining better reliability than PCs.

I think those that are buying 2015s and moving to PC for reliability are victims of YouTubers looking for clicks and several users crying that the sky is falling.

 

[poorcody]

This continues the trend of actual data that shows the 2016+ gen to be more reliable than older models and maintaining better reliability than PCs.

I think those that are buying 2015s and moving to PC for reliability are victims of YouTubers looking for clicks and several users crying that the sky is falling.

I agree. Now I'm reading people preemptively selling their MacBook because they think the keyboard will fail eventually?? It's nuts. I bet 90%-95% of keyboards never fail. My 2+ year-old 2016 MBP is the most satisfying computer I have ever owned.

 

[SDColorado]

Just another one

I think he meant to say "Thee eMacBook Pro is thee ebest laptop for eeveerybody" . "

You can't speell Applee ewithout ee e

 

[poorcody]

Just another one

Does anyone find it interesting that he types "e" then space, and he gets "e"-space-"e"? I understand keys not responding, or returning multiple letters, but how could it spit out an extra e after he hits the space bar? Not sure what to make of that...

 

[BigMcGuire]

This continues the trend of actual data that shows the 2016+ gen to be more reliable than older models and maintaining better reliability than PCs.

I think those that are buying 2015s and moving to PC for reliability are victims of YouTubers looking for clicks and several users crying that the sky is falling.

Sure seems that way to me. I remember relatively ignoring the MBP thread back when I had a MBA... Upon saving up enough $ to get one, my wife and I both got one (2017) and without a doubt these are the best computers I've ever used in my life. We've had them for 8 months now. My wife uses her every day for her Phd and I use mine every day as my personal laptop. The keyboard changed in the first 4 months of usage - kinda broke in and got a lot easier to type on. Now, it is really pleasant to type on. I love it. My wife loves it better than her MBA. We're expecting many many years of usage out of these things. Definitely $ well spent.

Sadly, the above won't get youtube $ or outrage viewer clicks and doesn't join the growing Apple hate trend.
[doublepost=1547930269][/doublepost]

Does anyone find it interesting that he types "e" then space, and he gets "e"-space-"e"? I understand keys not responding, or returning multiple letters, but how could it spit out an extra e after he hits the space bar? Not sure what to make of that...

Wife was commenting about how easily it would be to hook up a bluetooth keyboard and have someone off screen hit e every now and then. Not saying that's what happened, just an interesting thought .

 

[SDColorado]

Does anyone find it interesting that he types "e" then space, and he gets "e"-space-"e"? I understand keys not responding, or returning multiple letters, but how could it spit out an extra e after he hits the space bar? Not sure what to make of that...

Keyboard buffer issue? I am really not sure.

Wife was commenting about how easily it would be to hook up a bluetooth keyboard and have someone off screen hit e every now and then. Not saying that's what happened, just an interesting thought .

Probably very unlikely, particularly since he isn’t a serial Apple basher. He was just saying in an earlier video how they are the best laptops for most people, until his failed.

 

[trifid]

Sure seems that way to me. I remember relatively ignoring the MBP thread back when I had a MBA... Upon saving up enough $ to get one, my wife and I both got one (2017) and without a doubt these are the best computers I've ever used in my life.

Wait I don't get it, if you got the 2017 MBA you are using the traditional scissor mechanism, not the new unreliable butterfly mechanism. That's why your keyboard is working so great.

The 2018 MBA is the one that has the new butterfly-gate™ keyboard.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Wait I don't get it, if you got the 2017 MBA you are using the traditional scissor mechanism, not the new unreliable butterfly mechanism. That's why your keyboard is working so great.

The 2018 MBA is the one that has the new butterfly-gate™ keyboard.

My bad for not being clear. I had 2015 mba until last year. We now both own 2017 MBPs for 8 months now.

 

[trifid]

This continues the trend of actual data that shows the 2016+ gen to be more reliable than older models and maintaining better reliability than PCs.

I think those that are buying 2015s and moving to PC for reliability are victims of YouTubers looking for clicks and several users crying that the sky is falling.

Some of the useful comments from users reacting to Unbox Therapy's video:

"Same issues for me on the 2018 MacBook Pro. For me the space key does not work from time to time randomly... Really happy with the MacBook so far but this is really annoying."

"I have the same issue on my 2018 MBP 15 inch I dropped 2.7k for"

"I have the 2018 MacBook with the touch bar and I get this problem all the time. I had it with the 8, 9, m, n, and the space. I it into apple (75 minuet drive plus going back home 75 minuets) and they fixed it, but they had to send it into there apple repair or whatever it is. So I was missing my laptop for 2 weeks and I had to make the drive out there again. I will never buy another MacBook laptop again."

"This happens with my b key. 2016 MacBook pro"

"Me, my macbook pro got another problem and guess what letter : E (and R too). After 2 weeks of buying it, the physical key something flip open. The top of the letter detached from the key mechanism. And if i press slowly just on the bottom of the key, it come out always. It's annoying paying 2K for a laptop and having issues like this."

"I have the 2017 MacBook Pro and recently had this problem with my N key. I’ve had my laptop for a year and did not have this problem for the most part. (There were some times that it would act up a little but wiping down the keys at the time did the trick.) Sometime in December, my N key started doing the same things in your video and it drove me bonkers and I took it to Apple to get it fixed..."

"same problem with full stop on my machine. Macbook Pro 2018."

"Got the same problem on a 2018 MBP 13. It's kind of random, and I've had like three or four different keys behave this way. I've never gotten the the thing where the letter appears at the beginning of the next word; it's mostly double presses. The problem randomly appears and lasts for two days or so, then I might go for two or three weeks without problems. Then another key gets the problem. Really quite annoying when it happens, but it doesn't happen all that often. Of course, it shouldn't be happening at all."

"Same with 2017 mbp, got keyboard replaced, waiting when it will appear again -_-"

"I have the same issue with the "N" key on my MacBook Pro 13 with Touch Bar from 2017. It's making "nn" when I type. It's funny that the first time that happened, I've took the laptop to Apple Authorized Service Provider and when I wanted to show it to them, the problem disappeared..."

"15" MBP (2016) User here. I get it with the letter b, every time I have to delete the extra b. Also, a few times already, the delete button got stuck, it has happened like 10 times already. The exact same thing happened when I contacted Apple."

Guys, the issue is real and the issue is significant.

I have yet to find youtube videos and reports of users claiming random keys aren't working on MBP 2013-2015.