Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[SDColorado]

Some of the useful comments from users reacting to that youtube video:

"Same issues for me on the 2018 MacBook Pro. For me the space key does not work from time to time randomly... Really happy with the MacBook so far but this is really annoying."

My own comment that I posted to his video...

I have had this problem with 1 unit. More keys than just the "e" It was also the "s" "d" and "r". "8" key was also sticky. Luckily it began to fail before the 14-day return window. The replacement unit has not had this issue, yet... yet. I expect it eventually will. I am guessing the keyboard program will be extended to the 2018 models with gen. 3 keyboards.

 

[pashok3d]

Does anyone find it interesting that he types "e" then space, and he gets "e"-space-"e"? I understand keys not responding, or returning multiple letters, but how could it spit out an extra e after he hits the space bar? Not sure what to make of that...

If it is not a keyboard (key travel) issue, but smth other, it will be so comical.

 

[Ma2k5]

Does anyone find it interesting that he types "e" then space, and he gets "e"-space-"e"? I understand keys not responding, or returning multiple letters, but how could it spit out an extra e after he hits the space bar? Not sure what to make of that...

That is actually how it behaves normally when such a failure exists - as the second activation is registered even after another key press. I’ve seen this on several other people’s keyboards to do just that.

 

[Jg75]

That is actually how it behaves normally when such a failure exists - as the second activation is registered even after another key press. I’ve seen this on several other people’s keyboards to do just that.

This is unreal.
Sent from my 2015 MBP.
[doublepost=1547942486][/doublepost]I have already stepped into Android, and I'm actually quiet impressed by it. Next step would be Windows I guess. Who is to say I wouldn't be impressed by it aswell. Just connect a mouse and the biggest forte by the Mac is gone...

 

[Cashmonee]

Some of the useful comments from users reacting to Unbox Therapy's video:

"Same issues for me on the 2018 MacBook Pro. For me the space key does not work from time to time randomly... Really happy with the MacBook so far but this is really annoying."

"I have the same issue on my 2018 MBP 15 inch I dropped 2.7k for"

"I have the 2018 MacBook with the touch bar and I get this problem all the time. I had it with the 8, 9, m, n, and the space. I it into apple (75 minuet drive plus going back home 75 minuets) and they fixed it, but they had to send it into there apple repair or whatever it is. So I was missing my laptop for 2 weeks and I had to make the drive out there again. I will never buy another MacBook laptop again."

"This happens with my b key. 2016 MacBook pro"

"Me, my macbook pro got another problem and guess what letter : E (and R too). After 2 weeks of buying it, the physical key something flip open. The top of the letter detached from the key mechanism. And if i press slowly just on the bottom of the key, it come out always. It's annoying paying 2K for a laptop and having issues like this."

"I have the 2017 MacBook Pro and recently had this problem with my N key. I’ve had my laptop for a year and did not have this problem for the most part. (There were some times that it would act up a little but wiping down the keys at the time did the trick.) Sometime in December, my N key started doing the same things in your video and it drove me bonkers and I took it to Apple to get it fixed..."

"same problem with full stop on my machine. Macbook Pro 2018."

"Got the same problem on a 2018 MBP 13. It's kind of random, and I've had like three or four different keys behave this way. I've never gotten the the thing where the letter appears at the beginning of the next word; it's mostly double presses. The problem randomly appears and lasts for two days or so, then I might go for two or three weeks without problems. Then another key gets the problem. Really quite annoying when it happens, but it doesn't happen all that often. Of course, it shouldn't be happening at all."

"Same with 2017 mbp, got keyboard replaced, waiting when it will appear again -_-"

"I have the same issue with the "N" key on my MacBook Pro 13 with Touch Bar from 2017. It's making "nn" when I type. It's funny that the first time that happened, I've took the laptop to Apple Authorized Service Provider and when I wanted to show it to them, the problem disappeared..."

"15" MBP (2016) User here. I get it with the letter b, every time I have to delete the extra b. Also, a few times already, the delete button got stuck, it has happened like 10 times already. The exact same thing happened when I contacted Apple."

Guys, the issue is real and the issue is significant.

I have yet to find youtube videos and reports of users claiming random keys aren't working on MBP 2013-2015.

No one is doubting the validity of the issue. I am simply stating that the hysteria that has been stirred up makes it seem as though it affects a far larger percentage than it actually does.

Also, YouTube comments from a video by a YouTuber known to look for ways to stir controversy for views is hardly evidence of anything other than he has a good business idea. IBM, Consumer Reports, AppleInsider, Cnet, etc are far better sources of data on how bad the issue is. I would also include Apple in this as well, since they have a legal obligation to their investors to share things that could significantly undercut their performance, such as a massive keyboard failure affecting millions of laptops.

It is a problem. The non-anecdotal evidence shows that these keyboards fail more than previous MacBook Pros, but still only in the single digit percentages. It also show that overall reliability is at least marginally better on the 2016+.

 

[SDColorado]

I would also include Apple in this as well, since they have a legal obligation to their investors to share things that could significantly undercut their performance, such as a massive keyboard failure affecting millions of laptops.

Wait. You are talking about the same Apple that didn't tell people that they were throttling the performance of phones when the battery degrades? The same Apple that is facing a class action lawsuit Apple knew about the design defects and vulnerabilities related to Meltdown and Specter as far back as June 2017 and did not more promptly inform the public?

Apple initially claimed that the risk of attacks against its customers was "near zero" and then later admitted that the two vulnerabilities do affect their CPU's. In the lawsuit they are accused of making "materially false and/or misleading statements and/or failed to disclose that: (1) a fundamental security flaw in Advanced Micro’s processor chips renders them susceptible to hacking; and (2) as a result, Advanced Micro’s public statements were materially false and misleading at all relevant times.”

Pardon me if I don't share the confidence in Apple to disclose the truth when it comes to issues that significantly undercut the performance of their devices or pose possible security risks, even if legally obligated to do so.

 

[Cashmonee]

Wait. You are talking about the same Apple that didn't tell people that they were throttling the performance of phones when the battery degrades? The same Apple that is facing a class action lawsuit Apple knew about the design defects and vulnerabilities related to Meltdown and Specter as far back as June 2017 and did not more promptly inform the public?

Apple initially claimed that the risk of attacks against its customers was "near zero" and then later admitted that the two vulnerabilities do affect their CPU's. In the lawsuit they are accused of making "materially false and/or misleading statements and/or failed to disclose that: (1) a fundamental security flaw in Advanced Micro’s processor chips renders them susceptible to hacking; and (2) as a result, Advanced Micro’s public statements were materially false and misleading at all relevant times.”

Pardon me if I don't share the confidence in Apple to disclose the truth when it comes to issues that significantly undercut the performance of their devices or pose possible security risks, even if legally obligated to do so.

Big difference. We are talking about two different things. A failure on the scale you believe (although I do not recall you ever giving a percentage you believe to have faulty keyboards) would cause a direct financial loss for Apple. By law they would have to disclose that. There is no law requiring them to disclose the things you reference.

If it is so bad, where is the evidence? You have forum anecdotes and 2 repair programs. Repair programs are common for all PC manufacturers. Where is the evidence that shows the number of computers affected is anywhere close to the cataclysmic event you and a few others claim? All the numbers I have seen point to significantly less than 10% of machines. That means a person has a greater than 90% of not having the issue.

But by all means, keep your tin foil hat on. Out of curiosity, do you still own Apple products? Why come to the forum of the company you clearly do not trust and seem to have such hate for?

BTW, for most people, the risk of attack for Meltdown and Specter is near zero.

 

[SDColorado]

Big difference. We are talking about two different things. A failure on the scale you believe (although I do not recall you ever giving a percentage you believe to have faulty keyboards) would cause a direct financial loss for Apple. By law they would have to disclose that. There is no law requiring them to disclose the things you reference.

If it is so bad, where is the evidence? You have forum anecdotes and 2 repair programs. Repair programs are common for all PC manufacturers. Where is the evidence that shows the number of computers affected is anywhere close to the cataclysmic event you and a few others claim? All the numbers I have seen point to significantly less than 10% of machines. That means a person has a greater than 90% of not having the issue.

But by all means, keep your tin foil hat on. Out of curiosity, do you still own Apple products? Why come to the forum of the company you clearly do not trust and seem to have such hate for?

Sure they have legal obligation to disclose those things. That is why there have been class action law suits over them/

Foil hat? If you believe Apple will readily disclose anything they aren't forced to disclose, who is wearing the tin foil? Open to full disclosure they are not.

Do I still own Apple products? Did you even bother to read my signature? I only own one non-Apple product among a collection of iMacs, Macbook Pros, iPads, iPhones, Apple Watches, iPods, etc. Typing on a 2018 MBP as we speak, unit #5, as it says in my signature.

About the only thing, you said that was correct in your statements is that you don't recall me making any kind of percentage claim, because I have not. I have no idea what the percentage is and neither does anyone else.

The rest of the statements are nonsense, but if it is as high as 10% even 5%, that is a massive f-up.

Also, where did I say I hate Apple? Project much? I have spent enough money on Apple products over the years to say what I like about Apple and to call them out at times. Occasionally their **** does stink. Just because I own their products doesn't mean I have to love everything they do.

Edit: but interesting that my statements about actual class action lawsuits involving a failure to disclose are "tin foil hat" zone, but some theory posted above about an off-screen user forcing extra e's with Bluetooth keyboard in the shared video is not? I know you didn't make the statement...but just sayin'

 

[Cashmonee]

Sure they have legal obligation to disclose those things. That is why there have been class action law suits over them/

Foil hat? If you believe Apple will readily disclose anything they aren't forced to disclose, who is wearing the tin foil?

Do I still own Apple products? Did you even bother to read my signature? I only own one non-Apple product among a collection of iMacs, Macbook Pros, iPads, iPhones, Apple Watches, iPods, etc. Typing on a 2018 MBP as we speak, unit #5, as it says in my signature.

About the only thing, you said that was correct in your statements is that you don't recall me making any kind of percentage claim, because I have not. I have no idea what the percentage is and neither does anyone else.

The rest of the statements are nonsense, but if it is as high as 10% even 5%, that is a massive f-up.

Also, where did I say I hate Apple? Project much?

Class action lawsuits do not mean someone violated a law. It means that someone was wronged and believes they deserve compensation. There is no law requiring a company like Apple to disclose either of the two things you referenced.

And sure, 10% or even 5% would be a massive f-up. However the odds would still be greatly in the user's favor that they would receive a machine with nothing wrong.

I also just assumed from the tenor of your posts that you were a disgruntled Apple user. I apologize if that is not the case.

 

[SDColorado]

Class action lawsuits do not mean someone violated a law. It means that someone was wronged and believes they deserve compensation. There is no law requiring a company like Apple to disclose either of the two things you referenced.

And sure, 10% or even 5% would be a massive f-up. However the odds would still be greatly in the user's favor that they would receive a machine with nothing wrong.

I also just assumed from the tenor of your posts that you were a disgruntled Apple user. I apologize if that is not the case.

I am disgruntled about some things that Apple
does and and being on Gen. 3 of the butterfly keyboards without a genuine fix is one of them.

And making “Materially false and or misleading statements” is not the model of openness.

Apple is less legally obligated to disclose the actual percentage of failed keyboards than they are obligated to disclose forced throttle and performance degradation and security flaws. If they had any legal obligation to disclose that number they would be sharing more specifics than “a small number” or a “small percentage” but they don’t

The reason nobody knows what that number is exactly is because Apple has never shared it

Edit: I have had a unit that constantly crashed due to T2 errors. I have had a unit that arrived with several chips along the edge near the speaker straight out of the box, I have had a unit that had several keys fail (failed to register keypresses) and have had a unit that constantly bounced off 100c all the time for no apparent reason. The fact that I am still with the MBP and on unit #5, says I don't hate them. But disgruntled about a few things? Sure.

Apple insider suggests that the 2016 models had a keyboard failure rate that was nearly double that of the 2015 model with a failure rate of 11.8% vs 6% for the 2015 model. Not that 6% is a great number either, but doubling that to nearly 12% is a poor showing.

They claim the 2017 was performing better at 8.1%, but they also didn’t have a full year of data.

Nobody knows about 2018 yet, I only know from personal experience that I have yet to have an issue with the 2016 (now given to my wife) but did have a problem within 14 days with the 2018.

https://iphone.appleinsider.com/art...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models

 

[mac_in_tosh]

Getting a 2017 or 2018 13 inch MBP soon and was wondering if it vents heat through the keys. I ask because I am considering a keyboard cover for protection from dust and debris. It also dampens the noise of the keys, which is another benefit. Am I doing any harm by covering the keys in such a way?

I asked this also and so far no one has addressed it. Does anyone know?

 

[BigMcGuire]

I asked this also and so far no one has addressed it. Does anyone know?

Definitely vents heat through the keyboard. CoconutBattery reports higher temperatures when in clamshell mode even idling. I can definitely feel heat being vented\released when typing on keyboard during high CPU events.

I would not use a keyboard cover because of the thinness of the keyboard but primarily due to heat trapping. My own opinion tho. Would love to know about this too.

 

[537635]

Wife was commenting about how easily it would be to hook up a bluetooth keyboard and have someone off screen hit e every now and then. Not saying that's what happened, just an interesting thought .

This is THE BEST post in this huge topic.

To those who haven't experienced it, these keyboard issues seem fake when seen how they actually look like when typing. It's just too bizzare to be real.

 

[Demis013]

This is THE BEST post in this huge topic.

To those who haven't experienced it, these keyboard issues seem fake when seen how they actually look like when typing. It's just too bizzare to be real.

My girlfriend experienced the issue within 2 days after buying her MBA (and again with the replacement she got - so a 100% score....). She made this video that I shared here as well. She couldn't believe her eyes when it was happening either, an extra e popping up with a delay without you actually doing anything.. she almost started questioning her own vision lol. Asked me to confirm what she was seeing. We also had someone commenting that her video might be fake as well:

I myself have been on my MBP 2018 for two months now and - with Unshaky - I'm experiencing no issues. I've typed full pages for work flawlessly. I installed it as soon as I started experiencing the issue (which was after 4-5 days..) and so far so good. Very ugly solution but I'm holding up for now. Reason I eventually decided to keep it was that I could get a great deal buying it from the office.

 

[maflynn]

Wife was commenting about how easily it would be to hook up a bluetooth keyboard and have someone off screen hit e every now and then. Not saying that's what happened, just an interesting thought .

Here's that weird E issue happening to a youtuber

I'd say this reported issue is not faked, and while it is fairly typical of people to accuse the person dealing with the issue, this seems pretty evident that its just another failure of apple's butterfly keyboard.

I have to say, I'm so relieved to not be facing this any longer, like the sword of Damocles

 

[Falhófnir]

Class action lawsuits do not mean someone violated a law. It means that someone was wronged and believes they deserve compensation. There is no law requiring a company like Apple to disclose either of the two things you referenced.

And sure, 10% or even 5% would be a massive f-up. However the odds would still be greatly in the user's favor that they would receive a machine with nothing wrong.

I also just assumed from the tenor of your posts that you were a disgruntled Apple user. I apologize if that is not the case.

That 95% percent of people won't ever run into a problem isn't any consolation to the 5% who do. When going from a KB that has a negligible rate of failure to one where it's a material risk is clearly a backwards step. Additionally, to go from a universally praised KB to one that's divisive is clearly also not an advancement... They've tried it and it's not worked, time to cut their losses, continue supporting those who have bought machines with this design flaw, but move newly released machines to a new KB design.

 

[maflynn]

Additionally, to go from a universally praised KB to one that's divisive is clearly also not an advancement

Indeed, that's what is head scratching, now that other apple laptops are using the keyboard and failing, its clear that Apple really needs to step back and not try to adjust the design of the keyboard because it is universally hated (yes, there are some fans of it), but rather embrace the design what drew people to the Macs in the first place

I also just assumed from the tenor of your posts that you were a disgruntled Apple user. I apologize if that is not the case.

I can only speak for myself, I'm not disgruntled, but rather a disappointed Apple user. I started off with Apple during the Macintosh SE days (just dabbling) and went all in with their G3 based Macs. Yet now in 2019. With Apple's obsession with thinness they designed a keyboard that is flawed imo. I have no idea of the actual failure rates and personally, I don't care. What I do care about is having a laptop that works when I need it to work.

 

[SDColorado]

In addition to repeated characters such as the "e", unresponsive keys (an issue I had) and sticky keys (also an issue I had) the double spacing space bar seems to be gaining traction.

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/macbook-pro-air-keyboard-problems

And while long, Natasha Lomas' An ode to Apple’s awful MacBook keyboard, is a good read.

 

[Cashmonee]

That 95% percent of people won't ever run into a problem isn't any consolation to the 5% who do. When going from a KB that has a negligible rate of failure to one where it's a material risk is clearly a backwards step. Additionally, to go from a universally praised KB to one that's divisive is clearly also not an advancement... They've tried it and it's not worked, time to cut their losses, continue supporting those who have bought machines with this design flaw, but move newly released machines to a new KB design.

I agree. I am only saying that making a decision based on a 5% chance of something happening is not rational.

I am not trying to defend Apple or the keyboard. While I have gotten used to using it between having a 2017 for work since last May and now my own 2018, I still prefer the keyboard on my 2013. I think the keyboard in the 2016+ is definitely a step back both in usability and reliability. I think Apple has always put form over function since I have been following them the last 15 or so years, and that has always been frustrating.

Having said all of that I just think a lot of people have blown the issue way out of proportion. To leave the ecosystem or to buy nearly four year old hardware based on the reliability of this keyboard is not a rational decision. You should definitely consider the keyboard's reliability along with everything else, and maybe it is the last straw in your decision making process. It really should not be the only or even a particularly big reason for your decision. The one exclusion I would make is a coder or writer. Those jobs really require using a keyboard you love, but again that is more usability not reliability.
[doublepost=1548006740][/doublepost]

In addition to repeated characters such as the "e", unresponsive keys (an issue I had) and sticky keys (also an issue I had) the double spacing space bar seems to be gaining traction.

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/macbook-pro-air-keyboard-problems

And while long, Natasha Lomas' An ode to Apple’s awful MacBook keyboard, is a good read.

I have found myself double spacing from time to time, but I double striking the key for some reason. It may be the lightness of the key compared to my mechanical keyboard, but I wonder if that is playing a role with that particular problem for those people.

 

[SDColorado]

I agree. I am only saying that making a decision based on a 5% chance of something happening is not rational.

I am not trying to defend Apple or the keyboard. While I have gotten used to using it between having a 2017 for work since last May and now my own 2018, I still prefer the keyboard on my 2013. I think the keyboard in the 2016+ is definitely a step back both in usability and reliability. I think Apple has always put form over function since I have been following them the last 15 or so years, and that has always been frustrating.

Having said all of that I just think a lot of people have blown the issue way out of proportion. To leave the ecosystem or to buy nearly four year old hardware based on the reliability of this keyboard is not a rational decision. You should definitely consider the keyboard's reliability along with everything else, and maybe it is the last straw in your decision making process. It really should not be the only or even a particularly big reason for your decision. The one exclusion I would make is a coder or writer. Those jobs really require using a keyboard you love, but again that is more usability not reliability.
[doublepost=1548006740][/doublepost]

I have found myself double spacing from time to time, but I double striking the key for some reason. It may be the lightness of the key compared to my mechanical keyboard, but I wonder if that is playing a role with that particular problem for those people.

Not sure. The double spacing issue is definitely not one that I have ever experienced with the MBP, but you might be on to something with the double striking.

Oddly enough, double striking seems to be something I constantly do with my phone keyboard, which is another reason I am not really thrilled about the possibility of a haptic touchscreen keyboard replacement for the Butterfly one.

I. Constantly get. Sentences. That look. Like this. On my phone. Hahaha

But maybe it’s just the size of the keyboard, I have an iPhone X now and I don’t recall having the issue with my previous 6 Plus. May need to go back to the larger size.

 

[poorcody]

I agree. I am only saying that making a decision based on a 5% chance of something happening is not rational.

Exactly. I have seen multiple people write in these forums that they think all or most of these keyboards will eventually fail, and are acting on that belief.

Even with the increased rate of keyboard failures, what evidence there is seems to indicate overall reliability is the same, maybe better than previous generations. And Apple has been the leader in reliability for a while. So if you're trading a MacBook for a Thinkpad because you are worried something will go wrong, you are actually increasing your chance of problems.

And don't forget, even as the leader in reliability, 10% of Apple laptops need servicing in the first two years, according to Consumer Reports. So all laptops have a higher issue-rate than most consumer products. There are a lot of problems regardless of brand/model etc.

The one exclusion I would make is a coder or writer. Those jobs really require using a keyboard you love, but again that is more usability not reliability.

I code full-time on a 2016 MBP keyboard, and write during my free time, and I love the keyboard. I find typing to be faster once I adjusted to it. So I may have to disagree with you on that point! I recognize keyboard taste varies widely though...

 

[Jago]

I agree. I am only saying that making a decision based on a 5% chance of something happening is not rational.

I disagree. When presented with a choice (purchase a device or not) that has built-in 5% odds of a very specific and very catastrophic failure, the rational choice is to not make the purchase. The actual odds of a problem arising are not what matters the most - it’s how bad of a failure is to be expected when it does happen. Let me put it to you in another way: would you play Russian roulette for a million bucks? Probably not (sure hope so). What if the odds were 1/10? What if they were 1/10000? As you see, the odds do matter, but the impact of those odds matters way way more in some situations.

 

[Mackinjosh]

I disagree. When presented with a choice (purchase a device or not) that has built-in 5% odds of a very specific and very catastrophic failure, the rational choice is to not make the purchase. The actual odds of a problem arising are not what matters the most - it’s how bad of a failure is to be expected when it does happen. Let me put it to you in another way: would you play Russian roulette for a million bucks? Probably not (sure hope so). What if the odds were 1/10? What if they were 1/10000? As you see, the odds do matter, but the impact of those odds matters way way more in some situations.

Yep, a failure rate of 5-10 percent is still stupidly high, especially when paying this much for a device and all but assures you have to also buy the 250 dollar Apple + warranty which bumps the price up higher. Not worth the headache imo. They can either fix their glaring issue or lose me as a customer.

 

[SDColorado]

Yep, a failure rate of 5-10 percent is still stupidly high, especially when paying this much for a device and all but assures you have to also buy the 250 dollar Apple + warranty which bumps the price up higher. Not worth the headache imo. They can either fix their glaring issue or lose me as a customer.

Apple insider, from their own research, put the number at nearly 12% for the 2016 models and the 2017 models at over 8%, though they didn’t have a complete year for 2017. There is not enough data for 2018 yet.

I don’t know if anyone has yet looked at the year to year increases, meaning what are the predicted chances of failure over 2 years? 3 years? 4 years? Luckily Apple at least has a program in place for the 2016/17 models. I suspect 2018 will be added to that list.

That’s the good news, that bad is 4+ days without your laptop for a frickin top case replacement because you can’t just pop out the damned keyboard is really unacceptable for a business machine under any circumstances and just another failing of the poor design choice.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models

 

[Cashmonee]

Apple insider, from their own research, put the number at nearly 12% for the 2016 models and the 2017 models at over 8%, though they didn’t have a complete year for 2017. There is not enough data for 2018 yet.

I don’t know if anyone has yet looked at the year to year increases, meaning what are the predicted chances of failure over 2 years? 3 years? 4 years? Luckily Apple at least has a program in place for the 2016/17 models. I suspect 2018 will be added to that list.

That’s the good news, that bad is 4+ days without your laptop for a frickin top case replacement because you can’t just pop out the damned keyboard is really unacceptable for a business machine under any circumstances and just another failing of the poor design choice.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models

To be clear that is 12% and 8% of laptops needing repairs. Not computers sold or manufactured.

I disagree. When presented with a choice (purchase a device or not) that has built-in 5% odds of a very specific and very catastrophic failure, the rational choice is to not make the purchase. The actual odds of a problem arising are not what matters the most - it’s how bad of a failure is to be expected when it does happen. Let me put it to you in another way: would you play Russian roulette for a million bucks? Probably not (sure hope so). What if the odds were 1/10? What if they were 1/10000? As you see, the odds do matter, but the impact of those odds matters way way more in some situations.

Yep, a failure rate of 5-10 percent is still stupidly high, especially when paying this much for a device and all but assures you have to also buy the 250 dollar Apple + warranty which bumps the price up higher. Not worth the headache imo. They can either fix their glaring issue or lose me as a customer.

If 5% scares either of you, I highly suggest you stay away from laptops then. The failure rate for laptops is about 20% within 3 years of ownership. Of all manufacturers, Apple has the lowest incidence of failure in 3 years at about 10%.