Sure, you have a good suggestion for a backpack for my desktop? That’s unrealistic and not really germane to the topic of Gen. 3 keyboard either
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Gen 3 butterfly keyboard
- Thread starter Lastgreen
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Sure, you have a good suggestion for a backpack for my desktop? That’s unrealistic and not really germane to the topic of Gen. 3 keyboard either
I'd add that even 5% is actually a sky high incident rate, but what that 5% affects is why I find the response to be overblown. If you told me there was a 5% chance I'd get killed if I left the house this week, I wouldn't leave the house. If it was a 5% to 10% chance that one of my shoes would get lost or ruined, that's another story.
A 5% chance my laptop will explode in flames... I'm avoiding that at all costs. A 5% to 10% chance one of my keys might get stuck? I'd be super annoyed, but it won't be the driving factor in my decision of what I buy.
That's interesting that you own a mechanical keyboard. A couple of other people who aren't lighting torches and pulling out pitchforks over the possibility of keyboard malfunctions are also mechanical keyboard owners (as am I).
[doublepost=1548016165][/doublepost]
My experience runs counter to that. I had some episodic problems with repeating strikes and jams with my 2016 keyboard my first year, but after the first year, it's been fine save for a couple of arrow keys that are stiff and always have been stiff.
I'm pretty confident that I'm in the clear. Mine worked better after getting broken in. I've seen this pattern from some glitchy mechanicals I've owned before. The ones that were a lost cause didn't ever recover. They started glitchy and stayed that way. The ones that worked better after some breaking in had episodes that would decline in frequency as time went along and eventually would cease.
I wish everyone would repeat what you just said 100 times. I'm not a fan of most scissor switches. I haven't found any laptop keyboards that I like recently. I rather like the butterfly keys. I just want them to sort out the issues.
Last edited:
This is not how this works, at all. A combined total rate of all possible failures that can happen vs. the fail rate of a single type of failure are completely different things.
I got my keys replaced once again for my 2016 version. This time the keys feel very different and they make less noise so I wonder if they replaced it with the 2018 version?
On the bright side I got a new battery since they have to replace the whole top case. I will end up selling this though because the 4 year warranty covering it will be gone soon.
On the bright side I got a new battery since they have to replace the whole top case. I will end up selling this though because the 4 year warranty covering it will be gone soon.
It'll be reverse for me. Keyboard's fine. Battery is not. I'll get around to getting my battery replaced in a few months and I'll end up with a new keyboard for the first time.
How old are you? Because I'm a full time writer and everyone I know who is say the new keyboard is an RSI inducing nightmare, and it makes sense to me. I tried writing on one and it's terrible. a MK or the old 2015 style all the way. In fact, I'm buying a new (aka old 2015) laptop in the next few months, just because I need that old keyboard for when I travel. (Most of the time i'm on an iMac).Exactly. I have seen multiple people write in these forums that they think all or most of these keyboards will eventually fail, and are acting on that belief.
Even with the increased rate of keyboard failures, what evidence there is seems to indicate overall reliability is the same, maybe better than previous generations. And Apple has been the leader in reliability for a while. So if you're trading a MacBook for a Thinkpad because you are worried something will go wrong, you are actually increasing your chance of problems.
And don't forget, even as the leader in reliability, 10% of Apple laptops need servicing in the first two years, according to Consumer Reports. So all laptops have a higher issue-rate than most consumer products. There are a lot of problems regardless of brand/model etc.
I code full-time on a 2016 MBP keyboard, and write during my free time, and I love the keyboard. I find typing to be faster once I adjusted to it. So I may have to disagree with you on that point!
Middle-aged. It (for me) had a long learning curve -- weeks of full-time typing to learn to hit the keys much more lightly. Sometimes when I go to "normal" keyboards I actually don't hit them hard enough to activate them now. If you switch between keyboards I'm sure the learning-curve is longer. But I actually wrote a novel (about 85,000 words) on it. I really like the speed I get with the lighter touch.
Problem is, Apple only sells high end, premium and expensive laptops, while Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Dell, etc., sell from 200$ to 5000$ laptops. Of course those cheap laptops are gonna fail more often then expensive ones!
Only real way to compare would be by just using Thinkpad (or XPS, etc.) lineup with Apple. Then and only then we would have real numbers.
But there is yet another problem. Lets say your SSD fails on your MBP, and you're out of warranty. How much is that gonna cost you? Because SSD is soldered, as is RAM and everything else, price for repair is so high that it's simply not worth it.
SSD fails on your Thinkpad? Just replace it. Wi-Fi card fails? Replace it. RAM fails? Replace it.
I mean, if one key fails on your MBP, you have to replace entire top shell, trackpad, battery and entire keyboard. On Lenovo side of things, outside of GPU&CPU, everything is replaceable, and you can easily get OEM parts for cheap.
So sorry, when it comes to fails and reparability, Apple isn't the top. Not even near. Especially with failing keyboards, most important input device of ANY laptop.
It depends on how you use it. I'm middle aged too and an RSI sufferer. The butterfly keyboard is the first laptop keyboard I'm able to use without pain in a long time.
I have a bit of extra insight into this kind of stuff. Besides having RSI, I used to do professional ergonomic evaluations in my former career.
If you hit the keys too hard, the butterfly keyboard is going to be hands down the worst thing ever. If your hands are significantly larger than most people's you may also never get along with it. If you're really really tall or really really short, you may have some issues as well as it could affect the angle you're able to comfortably use the keyboard at.
Also, one person's RSI is not the same as another person's RSI. Some people can't bottom out. Some people can't handle excessive key resistance. Some people can't rest their wrists. Some people swear to reverse tenting. It goes on and on.
Beyond physical constraints that will strongly affect people's perceptions of how a device performs, some people have greater ability to adapt to different interfaces just the same that some people are just more naturally athletic. Similar factors apply to how people respond to input devices.
You can't get a good sense of how much you will or won't like the butterfly keys based on a short trial in the store or even after a couple of days. Most people will eventually adapt, but a lot won't be able to.
Last edited:
True about all that. RAM, SSD, WiFi Card, even the Keyboard are Lenovo FSU (Field Serviceable Unit) parts that the user can order and replace themselves at home. RAM and SSD of course you can purchase from any source as long as they are compatible. Sometimes the rate of failure isn't as important as the ability to repair and remedy the failure in a timely manner.
As far as which brand is most reliable, that seems to depend on whose statistics you compare. I am not sure Consumer Reports is the most reliable. From my conversations with them in the past, they have stated that they base their ratings on the number of owner-reported incidents. I can't imagine how they have any means to verify ownership, length of ownership or validity of the report.
Square Trade suggests the failure rate of Premium laptops is 4.2% in the first year and 17.4% over 3 years. All lower numbers than the suggested 20% of some earlier posts. I am sure their numbers can be argued as well, but I would personally believe them to be more accurate than Consumer Reports. They suggest Asus is the most reliable, followed by Toshiba, Sony, and Apple. I have no idea and really don't care. They are all within the margin of error.
https://www.cnet.com/news/who-makes-the-most-reliable-laptops-10400447/
Last edited:
When and if I do get a MBP with a lemon KB, I literally am having a 100% failed product in my face, not a statistically divided 10% or 5% rate as described above. The notion of something as basic as a keyboard failing is a do or nothing situation, this should have an odd of close to zero % to be considered acceptable. Like all the pre-2016 Apple laptops.
The 2016+ has some problems, but let's not get carried away about overstating the durability of the previous models. I've owned my share of pre 2016 MBP's that needed repairs.
For all of its issues, the 2016+ models may not be as fragile as people think. I've actually dropped my 2016 on the floor by accident (with the lid open too). It's fine. It only fell 3 feet, but I suspect most laptops including earlier MBPs would not fare as well.
Last edited:
Read the article. They polled Apple Stores and 3rd party authorized repair centers. They divided the number of keyboard repairs by the number of repairs to get their percentages. So the 12% AppleInsider is quoting is 12% of machines that have had repairs. The relevant line:
BTW, for those that have not read the article, the stores polled quoted the following number of first year repairs:
2014 MBP - 2120
2015 MBP - 1904
2016 MBP - 1402
2017 MBP - 1161 *First nine months
Those numbers show a dramatic decrease in the number of warranty events for the 2016 and 2017.
It is clear there is no sense in continuing this with most of you. I just ask you consider the actual data that is available. Clearly keyboards are failing at a higher rate, but the machines seem to be more reliable overall. At this point, the 2018 seems to have built upon the improvement of the 2017 and I think people are safe buying these without worrying.
Yeah, Apple's increasing use of soldered components is definitely a knock against them IMO. On the other hand, being able to walk down to a local Apple store and walk out with a replacement is a nice plus too.
The last survey I saw (2017) was based on 70,000+ responses to their survey (this is from my memory). They do have one of the best surveys around.
The SquareTrade is interesting, but it is from 2009.
The RESCECOM survey has similar results to Consumer Reports:
https://www.rescuecom.com/news-press-releases/rescuecom-2018-computer-reliability-report.aspx
Ha ha that was hilarious! With holes... ha! So the condom makes thing tighter? (I'm running with your stream of consciousness here just for a bit of comic relief) I wonder if this 2018 might improve my sex life... uh... never mind. Scratch that!
Seriously: I have been sniffing for a MBP 2015 or 2018 (figuring at least the 2018 wApplecare would be fixable), and while some '15s are around $1-1.5k some get into the >$2k range too, and they aren't NIB wAppleCare. Kinda sucky situation we're all in. I see a lot of 2018s for sale and wonder how many are from folks in this thread! Yikes!
You can only walk down to your local Apple
Store and walk out with a replacement within 14 days, give or take as sometimes they will make an exception. Which is nice, but most companies give 30 days to begin with, Apple being among the minority who do not.
Beyond that, many repairs require a depot repair and will require the laptop to be sent off for several days. That’s not a great solution for something that should/could be as simple as a keyboard failure.
With Lenovo you obviously still have to wait for a replacement keyboard, that can be expedited overnight, so not a several days repair and you can still use the machine in the meantime while you wait for the part.
RAM or SSD you go to your local Microcenter
or take advantage of Amazon Prime or the like and have a replacement at your door next day.
Microsoft does a similar thing as Apple with everything soldered on as well, but they do allow one of their two incidents of Microsoft Complete (their Apple Care +) to be used to get a replacement machine. They charge less for extended warranty than Apple.
But the topic is really about the Gen. 3 keyboard and it reminds me a bit of that Animaniacs cartoon with the Good Idea / Bad Idea skit. Riveting in a keyboard with questionable reliability so that you can’t remove it without destroying it thereby necessitating a depot repair for a top case
replacement is a....
Lenovo Keyboard replacement ....
Apple butterfly keyboard removal (you can’t replace it)
Last edited:
You can only walk down to your local Apple
Store and walk out with a replacement within 14 days, give or take as sometimes they will make an exception. Which is nice, but most companies give 30 days to begin with, Apple being among the minority who do not.
Beyond that, many repairs require a depot repair and will require the laptop to be sent off for several days. That’s not a great solution for something that should/could be as simple as a keyboard failure.
With Lenovo you obviously still have to wait for a replacement keyboard, that can be expedited overnight, so not a several days repair and you can still use the machine in the meantime while you wait for the part.
RAM or SSD you go to your local Microcenter
or take advantage of Amazon Prime or the like and have a replacement at your door next day.
Microsoft does a similar thing as Apple with everything soldered on as well, but they do allow one of their two incidents of Microsoft Complete (their Apple Care +) to be used to get a replacement machine. They charge less for extended warranty than Apple.
But the topic is really about the Gen. 3 keyboard and it reminds me a bit of that Animaniacs cartoon with the Good Idea / Bad Idea skit. Riveting in a keyboard with questionable reliability so that you can’t remove it without destroying it thereby necessitating a depot repair for a top case
replacement is a....
Lenovo Keyboard replacement ....
Apple butterfly keyboard removal (you can’t replace it)
This is your fifth 2018 SDColorado? I'd be bummed out for sure. Thanks for not going bonkers about my snork at Windows too. Very classy of you. So, your 2016 butterfly keyboard is now your wife's, and that has been better? Is that gen 1? 2017 cooler running gen 3, and your 18 gen 3? You've hanging in there after five, or are you abandoning Apple if this continues?
Well the 2016 has been problem free to date. Really the only other MBP I had prior to 2018 that was problematic was my 2013 13”, which had to go in for a couple screen replacements due to “staingate.” Even my 2011 17” was rock solid and never had the graphics issue up through the day I sold it in August.
2018’s have been another story. First one had constant T2/Bridge OS errors as well as uneven/wavy anti-glare coating across the top of the screen. Apple collected that one and shipped me another.
Second one arrived in a pristine box, but upon removing the paper from over the keyboard, I discovered a series of chips along the left side near the speaker. Definitely a manufacturing issue, not a shipping damage one.
Unit 3 had runaway heat issues that Apple could not solve. Temps constantly bouncing off 100c. They tried resetting everything, clean install, etc. couldn’t solve it so replaced it.
Unit 4 started developing issues where several keys would not always respond to the first and sometimes second and third key presses. Not all the time, but often enough to worry me. The 8 key would feel “sticky” when pressed.
I returned that one and experimented with a couple of Windows machines. I actually don’t have any problem with Windows and enjoy using both. I really enjoy my Surface Pro. But ultimately decided to give the MBP another chance while I could have it for an extended time over the holiday return period and also decided to pick up a Vega 20 model.
This 5th one has been mostly OK. The display is a little uneven, slightly pinker to one side and green/blue to the other. But you only notice it on a white background or a test pattern and not worth returning it for just that reason since I don’t notice it in real world use.
That said, after what I have gone through to get to unit 5, I can’t say I have much confidence in it for the long term and unless there is a major overhaul in the next couple of years, It will likely be the last one I purchase and may ultimately sell this one as Maflynn did in the nearer future.
Let’s just say my relationship with Apple right now is .... complicated. Definitely a love/hate relationship hahaha
At least all my issues have been different. Some folks like naivara (sp) had 4 in a row fail due to the keyboard issues.
Last edited:
this is... disheartening. This was happening with "i" on my 15" i9
exactly the same...
went to service and "it's fine".
Thankfully apple refunded it based on the flicker issue, but sheesh...
this is... disheartening. This was happening with "i" on my 15" i9
exactly the same...
went to service and "it's fine".
Thankfully apple refunded it based on the flicker issue, but sheesh...
Really cannot see these keyboards lasting 5-6 years. How much do they cost to replace out of warranty?
They can't replace just the keyboard because it is riveted to the lower part of the Macbook. The keys can not be individually replaced as well. So even if only one key fails, the whole keyboard has to be replaced.
Replacement of the keyboard means replacement of the whole lower casing of the laptop. I have seen estimations around $600 - $700 to replace it out of warranty, but I can be wrong. One thing is for sure: it ain't cheap!
That's really disappointing. I would be pretty nervous running one of these without a warranty, but what options do you have past year 3?
No clue.
Apple has a ridiculous policy on these things.
For example, my 2012 rMBP had a failing trackpad. (It was my fault). When i asked for price, it was around 600€ (topcase), i decided not to fix it (used an external trackpad and disabled built-in one).
When the battery started failing, they gave me 300€ quote. Despite the fact that it's the same part, and same service, and they ignored the fact that I brought it in for trackpad issues before.
I got that battery for free because they had a program for it, if you were willing to wait 2 months you got it free, because they had shortage of parts.
If a butterfly starts failing, I guess it's battery to wait till your battery goes belly up because it's cheaper than the keyboard.
Saw prices around 400$ for the keyboards.
That is, unless Apple launches a keyboard program for the 2018 models as well.
Yes, that's the problem. You can buy an external usb-keyboard after year 3, or pay for reparation. Both options are not ideal.
Last edited: