Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[smirking]

They are in fact scissors but I think its a combination of things that combine to an overall pleasing experience.

Well, I gotta try it again or find a higher end model. It was one of the Tx models that I played with.

 

[zen]

Hey, I keep asking other people about the current Thinkpad keyboards and nobody's answered me yet. What exactly feels different about them to you? I found a Thinkpad at Costco and found the keyboard to be standard issue laptop scissor switches. It seemed a lot like a squishier version of a unibody MBP keyboard to me. Did I miss something? Are the keyboards on the higher end models better than what I'd find at Costco?

I wonder what ThinkPad you looked at, as Lenovo do make quite a range from the cheap to the expensive. If you say the keyboard was a standard issue laptop scissor switches, and was similar to the old unibody MBP, then that suggests the one you looked at uses chiclet keys (like this 2013 MBP that I am typing on now). The premium ThinkPads use scissor switches, but the keys are not chiclet - as Maflynn says, the keys are shaped, and the spacing and angle of the keys varies slightly across the deck to give an ergonomic feel. Chiclet keys are square with rounded edges and flat, with uniform spacing around the keys.

If I go from this chiclet keyboard to my wife's X1 Yoga, the difference is night and day - and that's with the Yoga keyboard, which, although a ThinkPad, is different to the keyboard on the X1E and X1C as it is mounted on a retracting mechanism for when the laptop is put into tablet mode.

 

[smirking]

I wonder what ThinkPad you looked at, as Lenovo do make quite a range from the cheap to the expensive.

Yeah maybe that was it. I was playing with a Tx model.

 

[zen]

Well, I gotta try it again or find a higher end model. It was one of the Tx models that I played with.

Right - problem is, at least here in the UK, that nobody stocks the "pro" ThinkPads (eg, the X1 Carbon, the X1 Extreme, the X1 Yoga), so testing is impossible unless you know someone with a machine. Our local versions of Costco and other electronics stores only have the low-end Lenovo machines, or the premium consumer models like the Yoga C930 (which is a great laptop but I believe it has chiclet keys).

 

[maflynn]

It was one of the Tx models that I played with.

I can't comment on the TX, but the Extreme models seem to have some great keyboards.

 

[c0ppo]

My wife uses X1C, and I use X1E.
Keyboards on both laptops is way better then pre 2016 MBP keyboard. If we count out stuck keys, butterfly keyboard is ok. Nothing more, nothing less. But when I type a lot on them, it gets uncomfortable.

X1E on the other hand is a master piece. Not even pre 2016 MBP keyboards can compare. If anyone is interested in comparison, it's like comparing Mac OS HiDPI scaling with Windows 10 scaling. Windows 10 is mostly ok, but Mac OS is just perfect in that category.

Pre 2016 MBP keyboards are ok. Can't complain. But Thinkpad keyboards are in the category of their own. Butterfly keyboards aren't even comparable. When it comes to keyboards, lenovo is in the league of their own.

 

[zen]

My wife uses X1C, and I use X1E.
Keyboards on both laptops is way better then pre 2016 MBP keyboard. If we count out stuck keys, butterfly keyboard is ok. Nothing more, nothing less. But when I type a lot on them, it gets uncomfortable.

X1E on the other hand is a master piece. Not even pre 2016 MBP keyboards can compare. If anyone is interested in comparison, it's like comparing Mac OS HiDPI scaling with Windows 10 scaling. Windows 10 is mostly ok, but Mac OS is just perfect in that category.

Pre 2016 MBP keyboards are ok. Can't complain. But Thinkpad keyboards are in the category of their own. Butterfly keyboards aren't even comparable. When it comes to keyboards, lenovo is in the league of their own.

Is there any difference in keyboards between the X1E and the X1C that you have noticed?

 

[SDColorado]

Not for me, I have Das Keyboard and switching between the MBP and that is night and day. I never fully embraced the butterfly keyboard, I tolerated it, but I never enjoyed it. Conversely the Thinkpad's keyboard feels closer to an actual mechanical keyboard, at least the key caps feel better, the travel is longer, the spacing feels more natural.

I never “got used to” the butterfly keyboards either. 2 years with the 2016 and 6 months with the 2018’s? If haven’t “gotten used” to them by now, I don’t believe I ever will. I tolerate them sure, but I even prefer the keyboard cover on my Surface Pro to the typing experience on the butterfly keyboard. The Lenovo keyboards I find great. But it seems you have to go through a re-adjustment period again to get used to typing on any other keyboard after you have adapted to using the butterfly keyboard awhile.

 

[c0ppo]

Is there any difference in keyboards between the X1E and the X1C that you have noticed?

Just some small differences, maybe there aren't even differences at all, and it's just in my head?
I think X1E keyboard needs to be pushed a little harder then X1C. But it's just so small of difference I'm not really sure there is any, maybe it's just in my head

But it seems you have to go through a re-adjustment period again to get used to typing on any other keyboard after you have adapted to using the butterfly keyboard awhile.

True. It took me 3-4 days to adjust to new keyboard. But after that period, whenever I have to use MBP, I have to readjust to butterfly again. And it's not a pleasant experience at all

 

[smirking]

True. It took me 3-4 days to adjust to new keyboard. But after that period, whenever I have to use MBP, I have to readjust to butterfly again. And it's not a pleasant experience at all

I use featherlight mechanicals. My main drivers are all 35g switches. Perhaps that makes it a lot easier for me to switch back and forth. The butterfly switch is 60g, but still requires a very light stroke to use comfortably.

If you ever want to have a really hilarious time switching between keyboards, use an ortholinear keyboard for a while and then go back to a standard QWERTY offset keyboard. You end up trying to hit the space in between keys when you get back to a regular layout.

 

[Queen6]

I never “got used to” the butterfly keyboards either. 2 years with the 2016 and 6 months with the 2018’s? If haven’t “gotten used” to them by now, I don’t believe I ever will. I tolerate them sure, but I even prefer the keyboard cover on my Surface Pro to the typing experience on the butterfly keyboard. The Lenovo keyboards I find great. But it seems you have to go through a re-adjustment period again to get used to typing on any other keyboard after you have adapted to using the butterfly keyboard awhile.

Tolerate being the operative word. I can adjust and use the keyboards, equally I don't care for them for one second. The reliability issues the Butterfly design brings absolutely rules it out for any serious use for me, any use for that matter.

I've never seen before where customers/users have had to exchange numerous notebooks due to the keyboard malfunctioning or repairs conducted only again be sent back in sort time for another keyboard replacement. There is very obviously a design flaw that Apple in it's arrogance is doing it's level best to disregard until it redesigns the MBP chassis.

TBH it's a real shame as Apple is literally destroying the Mac's hard earned reputation in many professional circles with such antics. Poor design is poor design irrespective of how good it looks...

Q-6

 

[zx48k]

My very clean Left Command key is actually working the same or worse than before.
The Apple employee was surprised that I was told on the phone that they cleaned the key as opposed to replacing the top case, as per Work Authorization. He went to check it they still had the top case in stock, but it wasn’t available. So they gave me an estimate of getting the part by end of the week plus 24/48h labor. This will put repair time at least 17 days since I took the MBP to the store.
I have asked if a refund, replacement, upgrade or store credit can be given as compensation, and was denied all of them. A loan machine is also not possible, I was suggested I could buy a new MBP and then return it...

I finally got my MBP. Apparently someone wasn't happy with the way things were handled yesterday, and they got the part from another store. Would have been painless if it weren't for another call saying "we have cleaned your key cap", before they realized that this time they actually changed the top case...

 

[T1M_MC]

Has anyone who has had their keyboard replaced experienced any further issues aside from the keyboard like other hardware issues. I am in the process of getting a new keyboard on mine.

 

[mavericks7913]

Gosh the butterfly keyboard itself is a problem. Even 3rd gen got a same issue that 1st and 2nd gen had.

 

[zmon]

Has anyone who has had their keyboard replaced experienced any further issues aside from the keyboard like other hardware issues. I am in the process of getting a new keyboard on mine.

They gave me a new laptop back at the end of October instead of sending my original one in that I bought in August, claimed they weren't repairing the Gen 3's yet (I didn't have AC+ if that matters). Unfortunately, the replacement is starting to do the same thing my original one did with occasionally double registering I's. Forgot to buy AC+ for it as well, so I'm gonna give it another day or two and see if it gets worse. At the very least, even without AC+, I'm still covered for 2 years since using a Visa Signature card doubles the warranty length if this is going to continue being a problem after the normal warranty is over in this coming October (unless they choose to replace it again....)

 

[T1M_MC]

They gave me a new laptop back at the end of October instead of sending my original one in that I bought in August, claimed they weren't repairing the Gen 3's yet (I didn't have AC+ if that matters). Unfortunately, the replacement is starting to do the same thing my original one did with occasionally double registering I's. Forgot to buy AC+ for it as well, so I'm gonna give it another day or two and see if it gets worse. At the very least, even without AC+, I'm still covered for 2 years since using a Visa Signature card doubles the warranty length if this is going to continue being a problem after the normal warranty is over in this coming October (unless they choose to replace it again....)

I hope they will have a similar repair program for the 2018 MacBooks like the older models because this is still an issue that I feel apple does not want to admit to. The first time I went to the apple store to get the keyboard checked out all the person at the genius bar did was (no lie) stick a post-it note under my key and some pick tool!! Apple care is quite expensive in my opinion but I may have to consider it but it is about £350 which could buy you a decent phone.

 

[case2001]

For my desktop keyboard, I went with a Vortex Race 3 with Cherry MX clear mechanical switches. Has a Mac mode for keyboard layout and comes with extra keycaps. If you like short travel keys though, this is not the keyboard for you. OTOH the keycaps are PBT plastic (like the old IBMs) and look like new after a year.

Right now I am using it with a 15" 2014 rMBP. I have been thinking about an upgrade but after reading this thread and others, I may just get a Mac Mini and keep the 2014 for when I need a computer away from my desk.

If I did switch to a Windows laptop, it would probably be a Thinkpad but would definitely not be a Surface product. They are priced like Apple, have even worse iFixit scores and you are running Windows 10. Worst of both worlds really.

Haha. I don’t disagree. My thinkpads have been tanks.

 

[Mackinjosh]

They gave me a new laptop back at the end of October instead of sending my original one in that I bought in August, claimed they weren't repairing the Gen 3's yet (I didn't have AC+ if that matters). Unfortunately, the replacement is starting to do the same thing my original one did with occasionally double registering I's. Forgot to buy AC+ for it as well, so I'm gonna give it another day or two and see if it gets worse. At the very least, even without AC+, I'm still covered for 2 years since using a Visa Signature card doubles the warranty length if this is going to continue being a problem after the normal warranty is over in this coming October (unless they choose to replace it again....)

You can still buy Apple Care (not AC+) directly from Apple within the first year.

 

[seyoon_c09]

Glad this thread exists and yet another proof that I'm not the only one with this issue. I ordered my customized MacBook Pro 13-inch 2018 directly from Apple Store and had it for about a month or so. I took a very good care of it and everything works great, except this keyboard. In fact the keyboard in itself is mostly fine, and I'm typing on it this very minute to write out my response, except for this darn spacebar. I'm practically slamming on the spacebar trying to get it to accurately recognize and it's very unnatural for me,. At times my spacebar would insert two spaces, while other times it would not recognize at all. Obviously since I have the 2018 model year I thought I was in luck with the third generation keyboard and that Apple tightened things up, but doesn't seemed to be the case with this faulty keyboard. I honestly do like everything else about this new butterfly keyboard, from its low profile to faster response keys, but not so much when its giving me reliability trouble this early on. I'm going to see if slamming the spacebar and becoming a hard typer would resolve the issue and seeing if. I could get by with. this, I'm. dearly hoping that this is temporary, but if persistent it may need its first trip to my local Apple Store. I just find it really annoying and want to apologize for any odd spaces and periods at random spots. I'm having to double triple my writing these days because of this spacebar. Given how new my machine is I hope Apple will have generosity to replace an entire laptop, because I would certainly hate to deal with a machine with problems such as this and I forged out close to $3,100+tax for this computer. Replacing the top case would be like replacing a good third of a chunk of the computer I mean.

 

[Queen6]

Glad this thread exists and yet another proof that I'm not the only one with this issue. I ordered my customized MacBook Pro 13-inch 2018 directly from Apple Store and had it for about a month or so. I took a very good care of it and everything works great, except this keyboard. In fact the keyboard in itself is mostly fine, and I'm typing on it this very minute to write out my response, except for this darn spacebar. I'm practically slamming on the spacebar trying to get it to accurately recognize and it's very unnatural for me,. At times my spacebar would insert two spaces, while other times it would not recognize at all. Obviously since I have the 2018 model year I thought I was in luck with the third generation keyboard and that Apple tightened things up, but doesn't seemed to be the case with this faulty keyboard. I honestly do like everything else about this new butterfly keyboard, from its low profile to faster response keys, but not so much when its giving me reliability trouble this early on. I'm going to see if slamming the spacebar and becoming a hard typer would resolve the issue and seeing if. I could get by with. this, I'm. dearly hoping that this is temporary, but if persistent it may need its first trip to my local Apple Store. I just find it really annoying and want to apologize for any odd spaces and periods at random spots. I'm having to double triple my writing these days because of this spacebar. Given how new my machine is I hope Apple will have generosity to replace an entire laptop, because I would certainly hate to deal with a machine with problems such as this and I forged out close to $3,100+tax for this computer. Replacing the top case would be like replacing a good third of a chunk of the computer I mean.

Problem being Apple will only replace the keyboard with exactly the same unreliable garbage, no matter how many times it fails.

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

Problem being Apple will only replace the keyboard with exactly the same unreliable garbage, no matter how many times it fails.

Q-6

That's the thing that really rubs me the wrong way with these repair programs. The same exact behavior occurred with the 2011 dGPU repair program. The effect is that you're only kicking the can down the road, because the design is flawed.

 

[Queen6]

That's the thing that really rubs me the wrong way with these repair programs. The same exact behavior occurred with the 2011 dGPU repair program. The effect is that you're only kicking the can down the road, because the design is flawed.

IMHO Apple should be compelled by a court of law to provide the hardware as advertised. Apple has systematically done this over and over replacing poorly designed components with exactly the same.

When this happens Apple's only concern is itself, with customers left with the same problem. Until Apple is punished in a meaningful way no doubt it will continue this poor behaviour...

Q-6

 

[rutrack]

We might be surprised how much those repairs actually cost. They might not be that expensive for Apple.

I'm pretty sure that costs exactly as Apple states it costs on their balance sheet, hence their profit at the country of retail market is significantly minimized.

 

[legareal]

I had my 2016 Touchbar Macbook Pro taken into Apple several times with sticking keys, missing keys etc. then late last year they replaced the unit with a brand new 2018 Macbook Pro which I was very happy about.

Unfortunately I am now in the same position with my 2018 Macbook Pro. The command key rarely works and several letters repeat.

Apple surely are just going to replace the keyboard with the same faulty version again? What is my recourse here? I am an iOS developer and coding is almost impossible on this thing.

Is there any permanent solution?

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I had my 2016 Touchbar Macbook Pro taken into Apple several times with sticking keys, missing keys etc. then late last year they replaced the unit with a brand new 2018 Macbook Pro which I was very happy about.

Unfortunately I am now in the same position with my 2018 Macbook Pro. The command key rarely works and several letters repeat.

Apple surely are just going to replace the keyboard with the same faulty version again? What is my recourse here? I am an iOS developer and coding is almost impossible on this thing.

Is there any permanent solution?

As you need to stick with Apple (since you are an iOS developer) you do not have much options.
IMHO: Let Apple repair your current laptop. After that: sell it and by a pre 2016 MacBook pro or by a Mac mini.

If you decide to keep your current 2018 MacBook pro after repair: buy an external USB keyboard with it, than you can keep working at least when the laptop keyboard fails again.
Sorry I have no better suggestions, but it seems you are stuck between a rock and a hard place here.