I can only assume that the motion/movement Apple recommends is to crush or move the dust/crumb in such a way as to temporarily fix the issue. Hardly a fix for bad hardware design.
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Gen 3 butterfly keyboard
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Thanks for the tip, I will give it a shot and see how it goes!
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Yeah but the 2018 is supposed to have the silicone barrier that is going to fix all the problems (I jest). It's quite unlikely that my issue is a crumb stuck in the keyboard since I don't eat around my computer and it's in clamshell mode 90% of the time out of my way behind my monitors on my desk. If I had to postulate I would say it's from temperature variations throughout the day causing the plastic to expand and contract and not enough thought going into clearances that take into account the different expansion coefficients of whatever is connecting the keys and switches together. Which would also jive with @smirking's experience, the more he used it the less of an issue it became as the friction widened some of the clearances in the key allowing it to operate properly.
It could very well be a manufacturing issue on top of a design issue, all of which I blame apple for, as anyone with experience knows, you design systems to be manufactured with the tech and expertise available, not with the tech you're supposed to have.
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I really think the dust issue is a red herring. It probably CAN be the sole reason for failure in a limited number of cases, but if dust was universally deadly to this design, we should be seeing a failure rate approaching 100% because nobody lives or works in a dust free environment.
Apple doesn't appear to be pushing back very hard against iFixit's claim that a single grain of dust is enough to destroy the keyboard and I wonder if it's because the real culprit is even more embarrassing. It could be that they have a design that is simply going to fail a small percentage of the time even under perfect conditions and you can't do anything to stop it.
Allowing people to believe that dust is the reason the keyboards fail and that they'll be fine as long as they're neat and tidy around their computer gives them some (possibly false) sense of control. It may actually work to Apple's advantage to neither confirm nor deny the scandal advanced by iFixit about dust. More people are going to buy a product if they feel they have the ability to control its fate.
Interesting idea - when the first rumblings about this appeared, they came out with something to do with the stainless steel domes not being manufactured to their spec I seem to remember? From that (and the patterns of keys that tend to fail along with the MBP seemingly more affected than the MB) there came the heat theory and more recently (particularly since the patent for the dust ingress shield came to light) dust has been the focus. Seems it might be more than one factor if apple are struggling to isolate it?
I definitely think the real issue is multifactoral and likely predominantly due to non-dust reasons.
My memory is fuzzy so please correct me if I'm wrong. I think Apple said the silicone barrier was really for sound dampening reasons and not dust. It was other people who were speculating that this and every other rationale Apple gave was just done to avoid admitting their products were scared of dust.
They also had a patent filing for a switch that could crush and expel debris which a lot of people read as Apple silently admitting to the dust and debris hypothesis. It'd be very easy to come to this conclusion in hindsight, but I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to consider that an anti-debris mechanism was in the works all along and that some of the reaction that people attribute to dust-gate actually were only tangentially related at best.
Why? Because anyone who's making a keyboard, (especially a laptop keyboard) must already be concerned about debris gumming up the mechanisms. It's not just companies facing heat for a suspect keyboard design that are worried about this. They all are.
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This is EXACTLY what has happeened with all SIX of my 2018 13" MBP'ss - Although it eeventually moves to other keys as well. I am waiting for the 7th replacemeent computer to arrive today.
All 6 had keyboard issues? If true... you have amazing patience. I wasnt even willing to try with these potential issues but i would have and had 6 failures, i would have told apple ti put the mbp where sun.... you know what i want to say here
After getting my 15” 2017 560Pro unit replaced with a 2018 560X after a spate of repairs for different things, it had bridgeOS kernel panics and key repeats within a week. Returned for another 2018, keys repeating from day one. I ordered and picked up a refurbed 2017 and returned the 2018. Could not really notice much performance benefit in Lightroom or FCPX, only saw it in benchmarks.
The keys feel much nicer to press on the 2018, apple, what have you done?!
The keys feel much nicer to press on the 2018, apple, what have you done?!
Wow. I am on #5, and while all 5 have had some issue or another only 2 had keyboard issues. Of course since all the previous 4 were returned within the return period, no telling if they all would have developed a keyboard issue or not given time, but I can only verify 2. But all 6? smdh
It's very true. I am now on my 7th and as of about 15 hrs. the keyboard is working - LOL. By the way, I am meticulous with my machines.All 6 had keyboard issues? If true... you have amazing patience. I wasnt even willing to try with these potential issues but i would have and had 6 failures, i would have told apple ti put the mbp where sun.... you know what i want to say here
I'm also amazed that I continuing to exchange them. Maybe for a couple of reasons, one, deep in the Apple ecosystem. 2) love the OS and everything else about this machine, including the feel of the new keyboard...If only it would continue to work. 3) I feel like Apple should continue to replace them. 4) does this maybe force them to look at the issue if people keep returning faulty machines? Who knows. Anyway - Is this lucky number 7? Seems I am pretty unlucky so I'm not holding my breath, but in the meantime will enjoy typing on this machine until...
Seems highly improbably that on user would see 6 keyboards fails so quickly. It there something unique in your environment or usage case? Is this regular office/school work, or something else?
I am fairly certain @navaira had 5 in a row with issues before bailing and jumping ship. I have had 2 of 5 show keyboard issues, but the other 3 may have been returned/exchanged before they could present a problem.
I've had 4 in the row on 2016/2017 model (15'') (it was 2016 originally, but they exchanged it with 2017 keyboard). After that they replaced the entire computer with the 2018 model. After 4 months I'm seeing sporadic double key presses. Most annoyingly with the right arrow (!!!?!?!) where I had it fail during a big presentation jumping two slides at the time at random.
Yeah, quite improbable... Laptop doesn't travel a lot, is used in a clean apartment, no crumbs, etc.
It's a mess what this is. Man, these keyboards...
I know, and its a bummer in all truthfulness, I was really hoping the 3rd generation had the right design so these failure would be a thing of the past.
I use this MBP the same way that I have used my previous MBP's (last one was a 2012 that aside from Staingate screen issues, was a workhorse). I am a home user that is meticulous with my machines. I write a good amount and perhaps that's why I see keyboard issues faster than another would? Not sure. I can tell you that I have worked with Apple closely and most recently with a team that even set up another hard drive (pure) on my machine, still happened (so not something corrupt in my docs or downloads), used a bluetooth keyboard that worked well, the key repeats did not happen while using the external keyboard. This is clearly a hardware fail - Why? That is for Apple to figure out - But I tend to think that it really has nothing to do with dust. I think it is a heating issue that someone ruins the keyboard. In my case it has always started with the "e" key.
I am not the only one that has had multiple keyboard failures - Either with the 2016/17 or the 2018 keyboards. I know several people who have bought a 2018 MBP and the Air and are just now experiencing the repeat keys.
I fully expect that when I buy a $1700 apple MBP that it will work past the one week mark. I also fully expect that we will soon see either another class-action lawsuit or Apple will do the right thing and extend their keyboard program to all computers with any generation Butterfly Keyboard.
To me it’s looking quite obvious that these keyboards aren’t going to be saved by small tweaks. When you’re on the third generation of a problematic design and the issues still persist, it’s a tell-tale sign that the design itself is the problem.
Having just bought a new 15' 2018 MBP with Applecare (all good so far), if I repeatedly develop problems with the keyboard and have to take it into the store more than twice, will they replace the whole laptop with whatever new MBP is out that year? Say the keyboards fail and have to be replaced for a 3rd time in 2021 summer, would they just give me the new 2021 MBP?
If that is the case, I would find the purchase a lot more justifiable and would have more peace of mind.
If that is the case, I would find the purchase a lot more justifiable and would have more peace of mind.
I agree, and its too bad. I do like the MBPs but I do have to wonder about some of the design decisions that occurred.
Yep, I’m on the same boat. I would’ve liked to get another Mac, but with their current prices and all the reports about the keyboard being unreliable I pulled the trigger on a nice Surface Book discount. I’ll live with many other flaws, but an unreliable keyboard is a dealbreaker. Who on their right mind approved dumping one of the best laptop keyboards for one of the worst?
I am in the position where I wish I hadn't dipped my feet back into the pool. I should have gone some other route when i was evaluating alternatives rather than jump back in with #5. $4500 and it bought me another MBP with another issue two month into owning it. It's discouraging, to say the least.
I had three fail. It’s not unusual.
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That’s one big-ass computer.
My neighbor got a new MBA for Christmas and yesterday he showed me a whole cluster of keys had stopped working. That can't be dust related, right?
No matter how you slice it, the butterfly keyboard is flawed.
For my desktop keyboard, I went with a Vortex Race 3 with Cherry MX clear mechanical switches. Has a Mac mode for keyboard layout and comes with extra keycaps. If you like short travel keys though, this is not the keyboard for you. OTOH the keycaps are PBT plastic (like the old IBMs) and look like new after a year.
Right now I am using it with a 15" 2014 rMBP. I have been thinking about an upgrade but after reading this thread and others, I may just get a Mac Mini and keep the 2014 for when I need a computer away from my desk.
If I did switch to a Windows laptop, it would probably be a Thinkpad but would definitely not be a Surface product. They are priced like Apple, have even worse iFixit scores and you are running Windows 10. Worst of both worlds really.