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LordVic

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Sep 7, 2011
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This thread is great example that misogyny is clearly still alive, and that some men cannot seem to allow for anyone else to have their own "club".

Only men can have their own clubs and groups! if anyone else does,it's clearly SJW! What a bunch of crybabies in this thread.

A non-profit organization that is setup to help women/girls learn to code does NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM MEN.

Apparently, boys egos are so fragile this day that anyone doing anything good for any other group of people automatically means they're being attacked in some way. Pathetic.
 

PracticalMac

macrumors 68030
Jan 22, 2009
2,857
5,242
Houston, TX
I thought open discrimination was in the past. Guess not.

Under what rock have you been living?
[doublepost=1566397208][/doublepost]
This thread is great example that misogyny is clearly still alive, and that some men cannot seem to allow for anyone else to have their own "club".

Only men can have their own clubs and groups! if anyone else does,it's clearly SJW! What a bunch of crybabies in this thread.

A non-profit organization that is setup to help women/girls learn to code does NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM MEN.

Apparently, boys egos are so fragile this day that anyone doing anything good for any other group of people automatically means they're being attacked in some way. Pathetic.

Look at games.
Some games have male population > 20:1, and any girl discovered is often attacked.
Sad
 

realtuner

Suspended
Mar 8, 2019
1,714
5,053
Canada
"A more diverse future..."

As usual, Timmy the SWJ is using code for exclusion & discrimination.

I looked at the donor lists for the past 4 years for Girls Who Code and Apple isn't anywhere to be found. Know who is?

Adobe
Amazon Web Services
Autodesk
Dell
IBM
Intel
Intuit
Oracle
Google
Microsoft
Samsung
Spotify
Twitter

Just to name a few popular ones. Also, I didn't know Tim Cook ran Girls Who Code. So how exactly is Tim Cook "using code for exclusion & discrimination"?


This thread is great example that misogyny is clearly still alive, and that some men cannot seem to allow for anyone else to have their own "club".

Only men can have their own clubs and groups! if anyone else does,it's clearly SJW! What a bunch of crybabies in this thread.

A non-profit organization that is setup to help women/girls learn to code does NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM MEN.

Apparently, boys egos are so fragile this day that anyone doing anything good for any other group of people automatically means they're being attacked in some way. Pathetic.

This mentality is exactly the same as whacko evangelicals in the US. A woman having an abortion doesn't affect you. A gay couple getting married doesn't affect you. A person praying to a different God doesn't affect you.
 

lunarworks

macrumors 68000
Jun 17, 2003
1,972
5,213
Toronto, Canada
This is your regular reminder that programming was largely considered a menial "woman's job" before it became well-paying in the '70s, and this is the woman who programmed the Apollo 11 computer:

Hd3JD2l.jpg
 

neliason

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2015
501
1,242
not gonna happen. it's easier and more common now for women to earn the same money (or more) posting photos of their behinds on social media, and getting paid to promote products to their followers or selling "premium" content through paid sites than to invest time and money in coding.

Men are berated for objectifying women, but what have women done as soon as any degree of social restraint was lifted? Well they’ve done as much as they could to objectify themselves.

Modern tech has demonstrated that people need to be subject to the reality of failure to act decently. We see this with the internet as a whole. Our society says how important education is and our governments highly tax us to provide it and ancillary services. Yet today anyone can access a wealth of information unimaginable to people in the past with the internet. You can read for free all the books on which a classical education was founded. Rather than using this tech to learn we use it for porn, watching people play video games or other mindless diversions.

Im not trying to be a wiseguy. Im genuinely interested: why is it so important for it to be 50% women and 50% men? Why is that significant or an achievement in any way?

This is important for communism an ideology whose root is the primacy of the will over everything else including truth which is reality. Under this ideology what we will must be made ‘true’. Under this ideology nothing will be spared to achieve the end of the will. The goal of equality is arbitrary and not actually sought. The real goal in promoting some and subduing others all while benefiting personally.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
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Start a group devoted exclusively to the promotion of men and see how far you get before you're called a sexist, bigot etc.

Edit: case in point - see post #26
There are a LOT of men only institutions.

Men only schools. Men only clubs and men only sports.

don't seem to see you complaining about that. but a womans only club to learn how to code? OH THE HUGEMANATEE
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,408
34,207
Texas
This is your regular reminder that programming was largely considered a menial "woman's job" before it became well-paying in the '70s, and this is the woman who programmed the Apollo 11 computer:

She was a system designer, not a just a programmer. Amazing mind.
[doublepost=1566407018][/doublepost]
This thread is great example that misogyny is clearly still alive, and that some men cannot seem to allow for anyone else to have their own "club".

I don't get it. In one post you go (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/firing-lgbtq-or-pregnant-unmarried-workers/ ) against me when I talk about right of association for any reason (gender, religion etc.) and here you go the other way and complain about people that say that Apple is using "gender" as a discriminatory (as in, to eliminate/include someone) factor.

A non-profit organization that is setup to help women/girls learn to code does NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM MEN.

Generally true.

Apparently, boys egos are so fragile this day that anyone doing anything good for any other group of people automatically means they're being attacked in some way. Pathetic.

I don't think it's fragile ego exactly as it's not an attack by Apple, but a teacher told my 13yo boy's class about this project, and my son asked me why he can't attend and why there's no program for him and his pals. Don't think that boys don't notice this stuff.


EDIT: Ref my son. Thinking about it, I am not sure if it was a Girls Who Code program or some program made by his (public) school.
 
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LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
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Catskill Mountains
^^ If they notice, then it's a good time to explain to boys about the overhang of the bad old days when women were thought to be "less than" men in every way in our society and we even had laws that said so.

One hopes they've already learned about those times and the lingering discrimination via their history classes and texts.. which one hopes have been updated.

Meanwhile the boys R up in their treehouse painting their NO GIRLS ALLOWED gatepost sign?

I remember little boys of 11, 12... they wanted nothing to do with girls and all to do with a lock on fun pastimes including even having a treehouse.

Further, the ones I knew most closely did not wish to become rollerskaters but spent a great deal of time trying to steal and hide the skate keys of their sisters or friends' sisters. Complete little dogs in manger! I totally loved them but I thoroughly disliked them sometimes. :D

Of course things could have changed by now but not from the look of some posts in this thread.
 

linuxcooldude

macrumors 68020
Mar 1, 2010
2,480
7,232
"Now get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, then go clean the toilet," right?

Threads like these demonstrate exactly why we need programs like these. Every single goddamn time.

Its fine when the diversity is only for approved occupations. Even though female dominated jobs, such as, health care, teachers, human resources, social workers, veternarians. Appatently no one seems concerned we have no programs to get males in those positions.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
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I don't get it. In one post you go (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/firing-lgbtq-or-pregnant-unmarried-workers/ ) against me when I talk about right of association for any reason (gender, religion etc.) and here you go the other way and complain about people that say that Apple is using "gender" as a discriminatory (as in, to eliminate/include someone) factor.

I think context is massively important. the world isn't some binary "either/or".

Here, in this thread, we are talking about a non profit organization whose stated goal is to teach women how to code.

the thread you linked and we discussed was active employers preventing or prohibiting employees from working.

there's a significant and massively different contextual behaviour between the two.


The code (non profit) isn't a hiring actor. it's not an employer of the students who learn. These are just women looking to learn new skills so that they can compete in the workplace.

I would also be perfeclty willing to support a mens only coding group. We're talkin about non-profit clubs and not employers.
 
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yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
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Texas
^^ If they notice, then it's a good time to explain to boys about the overhang of the bad old days when women were thought to be "less than" men in every way in our society and we even had laws that said so.

Society's older views have nothing to do with the fact that a 2019/2020 class is going to be accessible for a gender rather than the other in the name of "diversity". It is very possible, for example, that a rich girl that can have her daddy pay up for a private programming teacher will take the place of a young boy from a poor family (maybe even minority) just on the base on gender. Now, as I explained countless times, it's Apple's prerogative as they can associate with whoever they want, but your reply has nothing to do with the opening of a curriculum by Apple and one of its associates.
I just noticed some sort of hypocrisy when one celebrates the "girls only class" but complains about misogyny when someone else points out that it might be discriminatory (it is, at least in a factual sense) at the same time that it is proclaimed that a company can't exclude anyone based on some views because they are perceived discriminatory.
[doublepost=1566411631][/doublepost]
I think context is massively important. the world isn't some binary "either/or".

Here, in this thread, we are talking about a non profit organization whose stated goal is to teach women how to code.

the thread you linked and we discussed was active employers preventing or prohibiting employees from working.

there's a significant and massively different contextual behaviour between the two.


The code (non profit) isn't a hiring actor. it's not an employer of the students who learn. These are just women looking to learn new skills so that they can compete in the workplace.

I would also be perfeclty willing to support a mens only coding group. We're talkin about non-profit clubs and not employers.

Again, I have nothing against the class itself (I don't think it makes sense, but it's Apple's and GWC's decision and evaluation to make; I'd rather have a program aimed at low income families rather than gender). However stopping someone from having education, especially from a well recognized name such as apple, is going to prohibit or at least hinder initial employment opportunities compared to those who have the recognized name on the resume.
"Hiring" actor doesn't mean anything. They are discriminating something based on gender. Actually, it's much worse as the program is limited in time and effort, while employment is expected to be a daily activity in which the two parties will be in contact everyday. If anything, you want more mix in the educational factor, and you want employee/employer relations that can last and are not going to cause friction.
 
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LordVic

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Society's older views have nothing to do with the fact that a 2019/2020 class is going to be accessible for a gender rather than the other in the name of "diversity". It is very possible, for example, that a rich girl that can have her daddy pay up for a private programming teacher will take the place of a young boy from a poor family (maybe even minority) just on the base on gender. Now, as I explained countless times, it's Apple's prerogative as they can associate with whoever they want, but your reply has nothing to do with the opening of a curriculum by Apple and one of its associates.
I just noticed some sort of hypocrisy when one celebrates the "girls only class" but complains about misogyny when someone else points out that it might be discriminatory (it is, at least in a factual sense) at the same time that it is proclaimed that a company can't exclude anyone based on some views because they are perceived discriminatory.

I just want to pick up on the term "Discrimnatory" here.

Yes it is. We all use discrimination in one form of another. Deciding to eat Burger today instead of noodles, would be discriminatory as you used some form of discrimination to determine what you like or did not like.

Not all discrimination is negative. But not all discrimination is positive.

Here, we're just talking about a girls club to learn coding. Nothing more. No special treatment in the workplace. No special "free pass" to get jobs ahead of anyone else. Just a learning class/seminar for women.

there are countless of mens only clubs that do the same. Are you going to call discrimination on those? I'm not. I'm not apposed to clubs like that as long as they aren't teaching hate and negative discrimination practices that unduly punish other groups.

However, the onyl reason why I can see men getting in a tizzy over a group like this is they don't want the competition when looking for work. they do not want equal access to employment because of their own built in misogynistic beliefs. The very fact that some men seem to feel personally attacked that they have additional competition in the workplace by women should be pretty strong evidence on it's own that the commentary against such groups isn't based on facts or logic, but emotional response to no longer having the same privilege they had before hand.
 

neliason

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2015
501
1,242
Its fine when the diversity is only for approved occupations. Even though female dominated jobs, such as, health care, teachers, human resources, social workers, veternarians. Appatently no one seems concerned we have no programs to get males in those positions.

We start with discrimination is bad and then use discrimination to solve the problem. One doesn’t have to be very smart to see the problem with that. However, one may need to be very educated to somehow not see the problem.

As for equality programs we also don’t see any to make the number of women in prison equal to the number of men. If the subject is brought up then biological differences are quickly brought in to explain this unequal outcome. Again, one probably must be highly educated to not see the problem with such a response.
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
998
41,619
Criminal Mexi Midget



Non-profit organization Girls Who Code today announced plans to begin offering a new Swift coding tutorial option for its upcoming 6th to 12th grade clubs as part of Apple's ongoing Everyone Can Code initiative.

Apple CEO Tim Cook shared the news on Twitter this afternoon, saying the company is excited to work with the Girls Who Code initiative.

girlswhocode-800x450.jpg

Girls Who Code's website says that it is aiming to build the "largest pipeline of future female engineers in the United States" through learning opportunities and programs dedicated to teaching coding.


Girls Who Code offers free after school programs for 3rd to 5th and 6th to 12th grade girls in a variety of locations across the United States.

Note: Due to the political nature of the discussion regarding this topic, the discussion thread is located in our Politics, Religion, Social Issues forum. All forum members and site visitors are welcome to read and follow the thread, but posting is limited to forum members with at least 100 posts.

Article Link: 'Girls Who Code' Non-Profit Announces New Swift Curriculum Option
I need to self identify as a girl and figure out a way to go back to HS ........
 
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D.T.

macrumors G4
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
Its fine when the diversity is only for approved occupations. Even though female dominated jobs, such as, health care, teachers, human resources, social workers, veternarians. Appatently no one seems concerned we have no programs to get males in those positions.

You need to differentiate between occupations males are __choosing__ to pursue less (and females more) vs. occupations where there's legitimate gender issues (<some_gender> aren't exposed to it as much by way of it being less "traditional", the job market [for a given occupation] favors <some_gender> [so entering that field is less attractive], etc.)

FWIW, I'm in the tech sector (25+ years) so have had some exposure to these trends, and one of my clients is a startup in the area of HR/occupational analytics and ML (job market trending, based on a wide range of demographics including gender ...)
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,408
34,207
Texas
Not all discrimination is negative. But not all discrimination is positive.

Hence, it must be a personal choice, unless you decide who is the arbiter which I will likely not accept.

Here, we're just talking about a girls club to learn coding. Nothing more. No special treatment in the workplace. No special "free pass" to get jobs ahead of anyone else. Just a learning class/seminar for women.

Who do you think that has it better, the girl with "2 year of Apple Code" on the resume (and a certificate or two maybe) or the boy/girl without anything on the resume (with similar skills and portfolio)? Again, I have nothing against the class itself (as I explained, I'd rather hit the socio demographic as programming is a great way to make money even freelancing using computers at a public library), but I can't fail to see a sort of confusion.

there are countless of mens only clubs that do the same. Are you going to call discrimination on those? I'm not.

Yes I do. I just recognize their right to do so without complaining about other groups that do the same for whatever reason and based on whatever they wan.

I'm not apposed to clubs like that as long as they aren't teaching hate and negative discrimination practices that unduly punish other groups.

Very reasonable.

However, the onyl reason why I can see men getting in a tizzy over a group like this is they don't want the competition when looking for work. they do not want equal access to employment because of their own built in misogynistic beliefs.

I don't know, this is a pretty broad generalization I can't corroborate or negate. I can tell you that after 20 years in the workplace, both public and private, both at worker bee and administration level, I noticed that often women tend to pull other women down, while most men really don't care. I even worked for a long while on a floor in which I was the only male (paid less than anyone else on the floor), and despite the high level in the titles and duties I have never seen so many backstabbing between individuals and colleagues as I saw there. Mine is a generalization itself, so even I would say to take it at face value, but this is what I observed personally and I still see it in a more mixed environment.

The very fact that some men seem to feel personally attacked that they have additional competition in the workplace by women should be pretty strong evidence on it's own that the commentary against such groups isn't based on facts or logic, but emotional response to no longer having the same privilege they had before hand.

I don't think that this is the problem. The problem is the constant "misogynistic" subject attached to many male actions, while stuff "girls only" are celebrated. After a while, people get fed up.
 
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Naraxus

macrumors 68020
Oct 13, 2016
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There are a LOT of men only institutions.

Men only schools. Men only clubs and men only sports.

don't seem to see you complaining about that. but a womans only club to learn how to code? OH THE HUGEMANATEE
Name them
 
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LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,766
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So we punish children for the sins of their father?

So we remind of the overhang into today's societies. There are in fact men who think women are less capable, less worthy, less deserving of the equality that is theirs under rule of law. Without attention to the inequity, it is perpetuated even if by inadvertence, by tradition (or... by intention). We don't have to know the motivation but we do need to interrupt the systemic aspects of inequality of opportunity.

There is nothing stopping someone from starting a tutoring program that's not gender specific, of course! The more, the merrier. It's like Mac user groups are open to all comers, or were when I hung out in them. It's quite true there were more "boys" than "girls" at that time.... and that sometimes you could feel invisible as a girl there.

It sometimes made me think we needed a promotion to "bring a girl to the meeting, get a free floppy disk" lol. We who were "girls" at those meetings all did have female friends who were fellow mac users on the job or at home but weren't necessarily Mac-user group members. I guess enough of us just didn't usually think to say "hey why don't you come along next time, it would be fun."

Today from looking at younger kin and their friends I think young women are often more mindful of how we can need a little nudge to end up in clubs or jobs where it's fine for us to go. I hope so.

I do get it that girls' families are not always as encouraging of their daughters as of their sons to go into STEM related fields, even today. It was much more common when I was a kid. So I appreciate the efforts of today's tech companies to offset that and to encourage and try to attract more women to the field. By the way, those efforts do not seem to be deterring males from entering and indeed continuing to dominate career paths in some technical areas.

At any rate, just because you may have a daughter in STEM does not mean all daughters have been encouraged as yours was, or have opportunities that your daughter may have been able to avail herself of. Looking back in time: just because there were exactly two token blacks in my class at college most certainly did not mean there was equal opportunity for blacks to obtain higher education when I was in school in the early 60s. Hardly!

Similarly even now with minorities and women. "We've come a long way baby" was a nice slogan for cigarette ads at the time. Ironic that it was an ad for stuff that was harmful no matter one's gender. Gee, women were finally free to sign up for lung cancer!

And we haven't come as far as we might yet on equal opportunity for everyone under our rule of law -- or we wouldn't have had to keep spelling out more and more detail on what "everyone" means in assorted situations at school and on the job.

Bottom line I happen to regard the complaints in this thread over this tutorial program as a bit over the top. Just my opinion. I admit I bring the coloring of an older generation that was more aware of outright discrimination against women in tech because they were "women! in this job?!" and "in over their heads" or "trying to make a point" or "trying to make a buck when a guy could be feeding his family on it." Wow... yeah. Heard all that. It used to be pretty loud. On the other hand it's still pretty clear that not all of that sentiment has gone away.
 
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lunarworks

macrumors 68000
Jun 17, 2003
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Toronto, Canada
Its fine when the diversity is only for approved occupations. Even though female dominated jobs, such as, health care, teachers, human resources, social workers, veternarians. Appatently no one seems concerned we have no programs to get males in those positions.
Maybe men have to stop ridiculing other men for being "male nurses" first? Jobs that require some level of empathy tend to attract derision from male peers, which drives men away from even considering them.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
Who do you think that has it better, the girl with "2 year of Apple Code" on the resume (and a certificate or two maybe) or the boy/girl without anything on the resume (with similar skills and portfolio)? Again, I have nothing against the class itself (as I explained, I'd rather hit the socio demographic as programming is a great way to make money even freelancing using computers at a public library), but I can't fail to see a sort of confusion.

then those boys can do the same and go sign up for free classes. Or join a boys club for programming lessons. (They exist here)

You're getting confused likely because of what some others here are repeating nonsensically, that somehow, providing these lessons ina girls club somehow prohibits, or limits boys in some way.

that is complete and utter nonsense to believe because it's fundamentally untrue. Providing access to women doesn't limit boys.

But it does come back to the notion of privilege. Historically, Men dominated that field. Therefore, if you were a male, and you wanted a good paying job without competition, you went into that field. Now, with more women learnign the field, that ease of access into the field will be harder as competition for those jobs goes up. The privilege is no longer automatic. Some see this equality as an attack against them because losing privilege over others means they're no longer "special"

the blowback against a non-profit education for women in a field that typically doesn't have a lot of women, is nothing more than a bunch of angry men who don't want to share an industry they think they deserve to run. =
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,408
34,207
Texas
Maybe men have to stop ridiculing other men for being "male nurses" first? Jobs that require some level of empathy tend to attract derision from male peers, which drives men away from even considering them.

That was probably true in the 1980's, I haven't heard a single person making fun of a male nurse. Ever (granted, I moved to the US in 2003). If peer derision was an issue we wouldn't have garbage collectors and male janitors.
 
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