'Girls Who Code' Non-Profit Announces New Swift Curriculum Option

[LordVic]

Name them

here's just the simple first link for you
https://www.bgca.org/programs/all-programs

OH MY... LOOK at all those boys only clubs for various things.

also girls only...

also coed!

amazing how this works having all these different groups of clubs for people to learn and grow in. but hey, ONE womans club that focuses on teaching programming skills. How evil.

 

[yaxomoxay]

then those boys can do the same and go sign up for free classes. Or join a boys club for programming lessons. (They exist here)

Same then goes for employment. You can find a job somewhere else, and guess what, you can even create your company with $50 and a computer at the library!

You're getting confused likely because of what some others here are repeating nonsensically, that somehow, providing these lessons ina girls club somehow prohibits, or limits boys in some way.

It limits them from accessing a class provided by Apple. That doesn't mean that boys can't go anywhere else, but Apple is limiting boys while proclaiming diversity. This is a fact. I recognize their right to do so.

that is complete and utter nonsense to believe because it's fundamentally untrue. Providing access to women doesn't limit boys.

It limits them in the places they are not allowed or in which they don't receive the same services.

 

[LordVic]

Same then goes for employment. You can find a job somewhere else, and guess what, you can even create your company with $50 and a computer at the library!



It limits them from accessing a class provided by Apple. That doesn't mean that boys can't go anywhere else, but Apple is limiting boys while proclaiming diversity.



It limits them in the places they are not allowed or in which they don't receive the same services.

Sorry, but this is all nonsense

 

[yaxomoxay]

Sorry, but this is all nonsense

Not much of a reply. What is nonsense? I just stated facts, there is zero opinion in my reply.

 

[neliason]

So we remind of the overhang into today's societies. There are in fact men who think women are less capable, less worthy, less deserving of the equality that is theirs under rule of law. Without attention to the inequity, it is perpetuated even if by inadvertence, by tradition (or... by intention). We don't have to know the motivation but we do need to interrupt the systemic aspects of inequality of opportunity.

That seems like a long way of saying yes.

And, there are plenty of women who think men are less capable. In fact watch all the ads from corporations today showing how men can't do anything right. Men are shown to be utter buffoons saved by their wise and capable wife. The idea that society has this notion of helpless women is completely contradicted by popular culture.

Maybe men have to stop ridiculing other men for being "male nurses" first? Jobs that require some level of empathy tend to attract derision from male peers, which drives men away from even considering them.

So if men don't take these jobs we blame other men. Apparently no matter what if there is a problem then we blame men.

 

[yaxomoxay]

In fact watch all the ads from corporations today showing how men can't do anything right. Men are shown to be utter buffoons saved by their wise and capable wife.

Not a new thing to be honest. The Sound of Music and Mary Poppins are two examples of this.

 

[LordVic]

Not much of a reply. What is nonsense? I just stated facts, there is zero opinion in my reply.

your entire post is opinion and not fact.

it's your opinion that women who don't get hired cause they're women should just go start their own business.

It doesn't limit them from classes from Apple. There are plenty of other non women only courses from Apple on learning coding. It also does not limit professional advancement as there are plenty of education and opportunities for men as is.

There are coding and learning opportunities for both genders. Yet you want to get offended because Apple has chosen to support a womens group. Think about that. What if Apple did a men's only coder course. How would yo respond to that? If you can honestly say that you'd find that as repulsive as a womens only course, than the feigned outrage here might be more believed. But simple fact, MOST of the men complaining in this thread about women getting a course for them, have zero problems using, or allowing mens only groups for various things as well. THAT is why it's misogynistic. It's the belief that us men are somehow more entitled to specific behaviours and actions than women.

 

[LizKat]

Its fine when the diversity is only for approved occupations. Even though female dominated jobs, such as, health care, teachers, human resources, social workers, veternarians. Appatently no one seems concerned we have no programs to get males in those positions.

This is patently untrue. Here's just one example

https://minoritynurse.com/recruiting-men-into-nursing-school/​

 

[LordVic]

In fact watch all the ads from corporations today showing how men can't do anything right. Men are shown to be utter buffoons saved by their wise and capable wife.

Yes, but this is indicative of a larger different problem with gendered stereotypes. How many commercials have we all seen where men refuse to read maps while driving and get lost only for the women to save the day. or how many commercials for dish soap all feature women only in the kitchen.

These are all gendered stereotypes that lead to heavy gendered roles and gendered prejudices.
[doublepost=1566414224][/doublepost]

This is patently untrue. Here's just one example

https://minoritynurse.com/recruiting-men-into-nursing-school/​

these people are so eager to be offended by anything that doesn't keep them in privilege they wont even bother to research the truth behind the things they are saying.

 

[D.T.]

That was probably true in the 1980's, I haven't heard a single person making fun of a male nurse. Ever (granted, I moved to the US in 2003). If peer derision was an issue we wouldn't have garbage collectors and male janitors.

That's not the trends I've seen based on a huge DB of interview data I've been analyzing with this startup (see previous post), that include pre-hire, post-exit, and occupational decisions made at the education/vocation stage - there's still a significant amount of decisions based on perceived gender alignment of various occupations (and significant turnover as a result, which is the solution vector for this particular product).

I'm talking 100Ks of data points, extensive ML based analytics (based on algos developed with a couple of well known IO Psychs).

 

[yaxomoxay]

your entire post is opinion and not fact.

Let's see/

it's your opinion that women who don't get hired cause they're women should just go start their own business.

Not an opinion. You said that boys can go somewhere else. I said that it's true for women too. Are you saying that women can't open their own business? Are you saying that they can't be hired anywhere else?

It doesn't limit them from classes from Apple. There are plenty of other non women only courses from Apple on learning coding.

Tell me a similar program by Apple, aimed at boys. None. Hence girls have one extra possibility than boys. Not an opinion.

It also does not limit professional advancement as there are plenty of education and opportunities for men as is.

​

Which are also available to the ladies. Hence, as far as concerns this thread, Apple is limiting boys (again, their right)​

There are coding and learning opportunities for both genders.

As there are opportunities for non religious people, then why were you complaining about religious discrimination by small companies?

Yet you want to get offended because Apple has chosen to support a womens group.

I am not offended by anything. I was just noticing that one thread the argument is "discrimination is bad" and on the other "some discrimination is good". My position hasn't changed by a single inch: a private entity can discriminate with whom it wants to associate in any way whatsoever.

Think about that. What if Apple did a men's only coder course. How would yo respond to that? If you can honestly say that you'd find that as repulsive as a womens only course, than the feigned outrage here might be more believed.

I'd say the very same things, that is it's Apple's right, in my opinion it's not a correct demographic to aim at (I'd go based on family income), and that it would be a bit weird to say that it's for "diversity".

But simple fact, MOST of the men complaining in this thread about women getting a course for them, have zero problems using, or allowing mens only groups for various things as well. THAT is why it's misogynistic. It's the belief that us men are somehow more entitled to specific behaviours and actions than women.

I am not most men, I don't talk for most men. Ask them. Again, my position is the same independently on the topic at hand. If X doesn't want to associate with Y, it's X's rights. Simple.
[doublepost=1566414482][/doublepost]

That's not the trends I've seen based on a huge DB of interview data I've been analyzing with this startup (see previous post), that include pre-hire, post-exit, and occupational decisions made at the education/vocation stage - there's still a significant amount of decisions based on perceived gender alignment of various occupations (and significant turnover as a result, which is the solution vector for this particular product).

I'm talking 100Ks of data points, extensive ML based analytics (based on algos developed with a couple of well known IO Psychs).

Missed your first post, sorry. Is the data available?

 

[LizKat]

That seems like a long way of saying yes.

And, there are plenty of women who think men are less capable. In fact watch all the ads from corporations today showing how men can't do anything right. Men are shown to be utter buffoons saved by their wise and capable wife. The idea that society has this notion of helpless women is completely contradicted by popular culture.

Who says a woman's thinking is behind those stupid ads??

If you work for a marketing agency and they tell you to write an ad showing women are good at this or that, the option to suggest that maybe men aren't so good at it exists but may or may not come along with the writing assignment.

Sometimes corporations can do things pretty bassackwards though. Their ads may mean to suggest that women can be capable and effective in their exercise of autonomy (in case we don't realize this) but they go about it by having the ad derogate men by having a woman show him up -- and so perhaps (or should I say apparently) leaving men with the idea that women think men are idiots.

Again, is it a correct assumption that it's a woman's thinking behind these ads? It's just corporate adspeak. The thinking behind it is corporate profit-needy. They seek ways to grab eyeballs using issues they've heard about in popular culture.

Ya know how women complain men don't respect them and consider them dunces. We could make an ad showing some stupid looking guy talking trash about how stupid his hot looking wife is and she ends up saving his bacon when he's about to electrocute himself or something, and it's our product somehow saved the day, right, a nonconducting pot holder. Women would like that as a little vignette, right? Respect! Let's go with it! ​

 

[LordVic]

Not an opinion. You said that boys can go somewhere else. I said that it's true for women too. Are you saying that women can't open their own business? Are you saying that they can't be hired anywhere else?

Women can absolutely start hteir own businesses... IF banks and loans were given out to women at the same rate that they were for men. Women historically receive 2.5x less than men for startup capital when being entrepreneurals.
From A 2016 report: https://www.theguardian.com/business/us-money-blog/2016/jul/17/bank-loan-business-sexism

The simple fact, that you and many other men seem to miss is that Women have historically been treated as sub-class and put into gendered roles that keep them out of positions of power and influence. On top of that, when they do crack into several fields they often have an uphill battle to climb against male dominated executive class.
https://www.catalyst.org/research/women-in-management/

There are far far far more men's only clubs and education than there are women only clubs. there would need to be hundreds more womens clubs at minimum before womens clubs are even on par with access that mens clubs have always been.

The outrage here is fake because it's outrage against giving equal access to opportunity. you're only acting out cause you think somehow this is an attack against men. It is not. it's just providing under-represented, and under privileged group to get education / lessons to equal opportunity for employment.

the only way your argument makes sense is if women were already in a dominent position in these places, and already had clubs that dominated and outnumber numerous times men. This doesn't exist because it's men currently in that position.

 

[D.T.]

Missed your first post, sorry. Is the data available?

Yes, enterprise licensing starts at $25K

 

[yaxomoxay]

Women can absolutely start hteir own businesses... IF banks and loans were given out to women at the same rate that they were for men. Women historically receive 2.5x less than men for startup capital when being entrepreneurals.
From A 2016 report: https://www.theguardian.com/business/us-money-blog/2016/jul/17/bank-loan-business-sexism

Very interesting article, so thank you for sharing. I'd love to read more about this, and more about the type of business that request loans. For example, I know of at least two women that took loans for a Mary Kay style business (which inevitably folded), while I still have to meet a man in a similar position. Not to say that the premise of the article is wrong, but I'd love to see what's behind the numbers.

The simple fact, that you and many other men seem to miss is that Women have historically been treated as sub-class and put into gendered roles that keep them out of positions of power and influence.

Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth I, Anne of Austria and more disagree. However yes, women were subject of mistreatment, and it's undeniable.

On top of that, when they do crack into several fields they often have an uphill battle to climb against male dominated executive class.
https://www.catalyst.org/research/women-in-management/

Studies suggest that this is more due to their lack of schedule flexibility and overtime availability, on top of more days off (excluding maternity) rather than other issues.

There are far far far more men's only clubs and education than there are women only clubs. .

​

Ok, but I don't complain when I see one and celebrate when I see the other. I think they're both fair.​

you're only acting out cause you think somehow this is an attack against men.

"you" as in me? Have you read what I wrote?
[doublepost=1566415598][/doublepost]

Yes, enterprise licensing starts at $25K

JEEZ! YOU EXPENSIVE $@!*@!!!

Too bad, it truly sounded like juicy data.....

 

[LordVic]

"you" as in me? Have you read what I wrote?

You, the general "you".

seriously, we need a better word for that use of "you". in french, they have two forms. a "Tu" which is "YOU" specifically, and "Vous" which is You, plural.

I think overall., these programs are good. They are an attempt to "even" the playing field in providing access when traditionally, women are still not accepted fully in many fields (especially tech, which is massively male dominated).

I am not particularly looking for equal outcome. Outcomes can't be equal because every human is different and will always have a different outcome. What I believe is required is equality of access, and that starts young and early, with the notion that male or female, or whatever the hell you (Vous) want to pick for yourself, you have equal opportunity to work without barriers artificially put in your way by those afraid to deal with greater pools of talent.

we still in our society stick way way way too hard to gendered stereotype roles. Women are generally not seen in tech. these roles lead to a lot of people not necessarily doing the jobs or careers that they wish. Men who don't go into Veternarian school because of "shame", women told they can't be programmers because they're girls. etc. This sort of nonsense is still rampant throughout the western nations, despite our claims of progressiveness.
[doublepost=1566416617][/doublepost]

Ok, but I don't complain when I see one and celebrate when I see the other. I think they're both fair.

Absolutely there are times and places for boys clubs, or girls clubs.

 

[yaxomoxay]

You, the general "you".

seriously, we need a better word for that use of "you". in french, they have two forms. a "Tu" which is "YOU" specifically, and "Vous" which is You, plural.

For real! This should be our priority #1. I am pretty sure that some war started because of the confusion caused by "you" (not you as in you, not you as in you (plural), but you as in you (the word)).

Same goes in Italian, "Tu" and "Voi".

I think overall., these programs are good. They are an attempt to "even" the playing field in providing access when traditionally, women are still not accepted fully in many fields (especially tech, which is massively male dominated).

I would seriously love to see how many of those courses - not only for Girls who code, but Kids code camps etc. - translate to real IT/programming jobs. I'd also like some love for professional programs like Excel, Access etc., but I understand that it might be tricky to organize as a kids' program...

I am not particularly looking for equal outcome. Outcomes can't be equal because every human is different and will always have a different outcome. What I believe is required is equality of access, and that starts young and early, with the notion that male or female, or whatever the hell you (Vous) want to pick for yourself, you have equal opportunity to work without barriers artificially put in your way by those afraid to deal with greater pools of talent.

we still in our society stick way way way too hard to gendered stereotype roles. Women are generally not seen in tech. these roles lead to a lot of people not necessarily doing the jobs or careers that they wish. Men who don't go into Veternarian school because of "shame", women told they can't be programmers because they're girls. etc. This sort of nonsense is still rampant throughout the western nations, despite our claims of progressiveness.

I do agree that we need to work more towards removing stereotypes, or at least to make sure that people don't consider them for actual decision.
I am doing my work to destroy stereotypes because even as an Italian, I don't like seafood, I am not a wine expert, and my fashion sense is considered abysmal if not downright ridiculous...

 

[LordVic]

I do agree that we need to work more towards removing stereotypes, or at least to make sure that people don't consider them for actual decision.
I am doing my work to destroy stereotypes because even as an Italian, I don't like seafood, I am not a wine expert, and my fashion sense is considered abysmal if not downright ridiculous...

it's the real important thing here. The idea of a womans course for coding is sort of a counter because of the gendered stereotypes that already exist

if they didnt exist and there was far more parity in what we saw, than the idea of a womans only code program like this wouldn't exist.

That's why it's silly and frustrating to see so many get actually ANGRY about a womans program like this. Because it clearly evidence that they don't recognise, or realize that these gendered roles exist and affect access to equality.

These programs also have the help in reducing those stereotypes. By providing better access of opportunity to these industries for women, they become role models to demonstrate that women can do it too.

Imagine being a little girl, and learning about computers, only to see no women in the industry. you take your first computer class and you're the only female. you happen to get a job, and still you're the only female, and the men all walk around talking about their balls, or doing workplace stuff without inviting you because you're a woman.

these are very real things that happen and silicon valley has a notorious bad reputation for being extremely male dominant. Heck, if you think tech is bad, some industries still think women should be nothing more than showpieces or office clerks. My cousin was sexually assaulted and demeaned as a lawyer because the men thought that's the point of women lawyers.

 

[Naraxus]

here's just the simple first link for you
https://www.bgca.org/programs/all-programs

OH MY... LOOK at all those boys only clubs for various things.

also girls only...

also coed!

amazing how this works having all these different groups of clubs for people to learn and grow in. but hey, ONE womans club that focuses on teaching programming skills. How evil.

Boys and Girls Club....

That's not what I asked for. I asked for a male-only club like the one in the article. I'll keep waiting.

 

[yaxomoxay]

it's the real important thing here. The idea of a womans course for coding is sort of a counter because of the gendered stereotypes that already exist

if they didnt exist and there was far more parity in what we saw, than the idea of a womans only code program like this wouldn't exist.

That's why it's silly and frustrating to see so many get actually ANGRY about a womans program like this. Because it clearly evidence that they don't recognise, or realize that these gendered roles exist and affect access to equality.

These programs also have the help in reducing those stereotypes. By providing better access of opportunity to these industries for women, they become role models to demonstrate that women can do it too.

Imagine being a little girl, and learning about computers, only to see no women in the industry. you take your first computer class and you're the only female. you happen to get a job, and still you're the only female, and the men all walk around talking about their balls, or doing workplace stuff without inviting you because you're a woman.

these are very real things that happen and silicon valley has a notorious bad reputation for being extremely male dominant. Heck, if you think tech is bad, some industries still think women should be nothing more than showpieces or office clerks. My cousin was sexually assaulted and demeaned as a lawyer because the men thought that's the point of women lawyers.

Let me start by saying that what happened to your cousin is totally unacceptable. It brings me lots of sadness reading about stories like this one, and I am not saying it just to say it.

I don't deny anything you wrote, but don't think that bad stereotype for men/boys don't exist. they do and they pull them down. I don't think that Apple's is the solution if nothing else because the mix during the education phase is often much better (in the extreme reverse situation, you have boys who code and girls who code programs, then magically they will mix in the workplace... without any experience one with the other...).

Personally, I admire men who work hard, and women who work hard. Sometimes the challenges are different, and sometimes the roadblocks will be harder for one rather than the other. However, I try to focus as much as possible on the actions of the single individual, trying to understand the complexities around those actions, which is a thing that I believe is rare in today's "clickbaity" world where everyone wants an easy and fast solution pointing at a single problem (which is also a huge business in itself, see the various diet plans, one day is Atkins, then Keto, then so on, or the magical cures, one day is the detox, the next day is THC oil and so on).

I do agree with you that we have a long road towards a stable situation - to be honest I am not even sure it's reachable.

 

[LordVic]

, but don't think that bad stereotype for men/boys don't exist

I just want to clarify, that my discussion about womens issues such as this doesn't not preclude me from understanding that there are significant issues, many for the same reason that affects men.

as there are Code groups for women, I think haing a nonprofit to get more men into nursing would be fantastic as well. much of that is also driven by negative gender stereo types.
[doublepost=1566420759][/doublepost]

I do agree with you that we have a long road towards a stable situation - to be honest I am not even sure it's reachable.

Yea,but i'm a hopeless romantic and while it may never be achievable for perfect representative splits accross the board on all the things, I can still strive and hope that we will constantly progress and work towards a more progressive equal society.

 

[yaxomoxay]

I just want to clarify, that my discussion about womens issues such as this doesn't not preclude me from understanding that there are significant issues, many for the same reason that affects men.

as there are Code groups for women, I think haing a nonprofit to get more men into nursing would be fantastic as well. much of that is also driven by negative gender stereo types.

Yes.
Thank you for the good conversation by the way, I hope you'll enjoy the rest of the day/night.

 

[definitive]

Jeez, do you have any females in your life that you even remotely know? How many women do you think actually do this?

lol, why the insult? it's more common than you may think. ever hear of "the oldest profession"? where do you think these women with hundreds of thousands to millions of instagram followers get the money to take all those travel photos or wear expensive clothes? a lot of these women are in their 20's, and most can't afford to travel so often unless someone else is paying for it.

social media is probably the biggest factor driving it these days. women who sit on sites like instagram 24/7, posting their bikini, butt, or gym photos for their 50k+ followers are doing it for escorting gigs (ex: tag the sponsor has stories about this), product ads (ex: bang energy drink), or shout outs to businesses/people. this stuff can net them an income which affords them a very comfortable lifestyle.

even the less physically desirable women are exploiting this piece of the pie through things like snapchat (heard of thot audit?), gofundme, and similar donation/subscription type of sites. many of them don't even have to leave the comfort of their own home to sell access to a few nudes or vip access. i'm not even bothering to mention camgirls...

guys do these things too, but with things like rented luxury cars and product placement, similar to how computer part reviewers work.

in july, instagram banned many large meme accounts because they were using other people's content on their pages with large followings to give shout outs for money. one 15 year old who got banned was making ~$4k a month doing this. think about it: sit in front of your computer, invest a hundred or so dollars to buy some fake followers, start posting memes, and watch your follower count grow over time. once you've reached like 100-500k, start contacting companies, asking them for some money to advertise their page or product. create multiple accounts, and do the same thing on each, and you're now making even more money.

the younger crowd is very impressionable, and when they see these fake things on social media sites, they want the same for themselves, so some of them will jump in on the bandwagon, and it eventually grows bigger and bigger. why spend time and money on education and wind up with a 9 to 5 job, when you can post some photos online in order to generate same or higher income and have tons of free time? people doing stuff on youtube/twitch are also in a similar boat.

again, i am not sure why you decided to insult me, because this stuff is true, and it's happening everywhere. most social media sites are being used for business and advertisement purposes, and many people who figured these things out early on are now making bank without having to sit in a cubicle all day.

i'm all for women and equality when it comes to coding or any other professional job, but the reality is that you're not gonna have a 50-50 ratio in such a profession, because women don't gravitate towards this profession since our culture tells them that there are easier alternatives which pay just as well.

 

[D.T.]

That's why it's silly and frustrating to see so many get actually ANGRY about a womans program like this.

It's a bizarre reaction. Several posters are so spun up, but about what? It seems like they're desperate to win some argument that's not even in the scope of the thread topic[?]

There's 1000's of "code camps" (or equivalent) and the participants are mostly male, since the industry is predominantly male, so it's a bit daunting for girls to want to participate - so you remove a little stress and anxiety, introduce them to coding in less oppressive environment, they may be interested and/or good at it, which may lead to them being a terrific contributor to software development.

I had a couple of women I hired as developers for a former company of mine, even in the interviews, I could tell they had a totally different perspective (it took a couple of minutes to reset their lens ...), much different vs. male candidates, they wound up being rock stars, and in many cases had a totally different approach to problem solving than their male counterparts (leading to some killer solutions).

 

[yaxomoxay]

lol, why the insult? it's more common than you may think. ever hear of "the oldest profession"? where do you think these women with hundreds of thousands to millions of instagram followers get the money to take all those travel photos or wear expensive clothes? a lot of these women are in their 20's, and most can't afford to travel so often unless someone else is paying for it.

social media is probably the biggest factor driving it these days. women who sit on sites like instagram 24/7, posting their bikini, butt, or gym photos for their 50k+ followers are doing it for escorting gigs (ex: tag the sponsor), product ads (ex: bang energy drink), or shout outs to businesses/people. this stuff can net them an income which affords them a very comfortable lifestyle.

even the less physically desirable women are exploiting this piece of the pie through things like snapchat (heard of thot audit?), gofundme, and similar donation/subscription type of sites. many of them don't even have to leave the comfort of their own home to sell access to a few nudes or vip access. i'm not even bothering to mention camgirls...

guys do these things too, but with things like rented luxury cars and product placement, similar to how computer part reviewers work.

in july, instagram banned many large meme accounts because they were using other people's content on their pages with large followings to give shout outs for money. one 15 year old who got banned was making ~$4k a month doing this. think about it: sit in front of your computer, invest a hundred or so dollars to buy some fake followers, start posting memes, and watch your follower count grow over time. once you've reached like 100-500k, start contacting companies, asking them for some money to advertise their page or product. create multiple accounts, and do the same thing on each, and you're not making even more money.

the younger crowd is very impressionable, and when they see these fake things on social media sites, they want the same for themselves, so some of them will jump in on the bandwagon, and it eventually grows bigger and bigger. why spend time and money on education and wind up with a 9 to 5 job, when you can post some photos online in order to generate same or higher income and have tons of free time? people doing stuff on youtube/twitch are also in a similar boat.

again, i am not sure why you decided to insult me, because this stuff is true, and it's happening everywhere. most social media sites are being used for business and advertisement purposes, and many people who figured these things out early on are now making bank without having to sit in a cubicle all day.

I won't get into this, but I am shocked that there is no mention of Belle Delphine.