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Boys and Girls Club....

That's not what I asked for. I asked for a male-only club like the one in the article. I'll keep waiting.

I can't help if you can't read.

a lot of the programs provided by boys and girls clubs of America have gender specific clubs.
For example, on the very page:
https://www.bgca.org/programs/health-wellness/passport-2-manhood

Seperate baseball programs based on Gender.
https://www.bgca.org/programs/sports-recreation/rbi

it doesn't take a lot of research or work to find programs that are specific to boys/men only. Or how about some of the most influential groups and clubs in the world for money and politics are all gentlement only?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gentlemen's_clubs_in_the_United_States
 
I won't get into this, but I am shocked that there is no mention of Belle Delphine.

i was thinking of mentioning her originally, but decided to limit the amount of people's names (if any) in my reply, but yeah, she falls under that category: sells stuff to her followers (bath water lol), and offers vip subscription services.
 
To me it's quite simple.

I'm a software developer. An important goal for me is to improve in my chosen profession. I've found that the best way to improve is to have smart colleagues, preferably smarter than me. I also happen to believe that the best way to ensure future employment is to become really good at your job.

Every time a woman decides to become something other than a computer scientist (such as a doctor or, God forbid, a lawyer) I'm deprived of a smart potential colleague. Therefore, I applaud any initiative that encourages women to get into computer science or at least consider CS as a career path.
 
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I can't help if you can't read.

Well, that's a bit selfish, maybe you could mentor him? ;)


To me it's quite simple.

I'm a software developer. An important goal for me is to improve in my chosen profession. I've found that the best way to improve is to have smart colleagues, preferably smarter than me. I also happen to believe that the best way to ensure future employment is to become really good at your job.

Every time a woman decides to become something other than a computer scientist (such as a doctor or, God forbid, a lawyer) I'm deprived of a smart potential colleague. Therefore, I applaud any initiative that encourages women to get into computer science or at least consider CS as a career path.

See post #74 :D
 
Imagine being a little girl, and learning about computers, only to see no women in the industry. you take your first computer class and you're the only female. you happen to get a job, and still you're the only female, and the men all walk around talking about their balls, or doing workplace stuff without inviting you because you're a woman.

Well way back in the 70s I do remember having taken advantage of an offer to attend a seminar series for learning how to better generalize variables and modularize routines. I was the only woman in the class. The guy who taught the classes kept using examples in his teaching segments that were pretty misogynistic, it seemed to me. He was going on about how "Now say the passenger isn't always the same kind of person, could be a kid, a woman. Say it's a pregnant woman and when the car crashes into the car in front, she lives but of course the baby's DOA."

OK so I figured like in a certain shaggy dog story I knew, "That's one..."​

But then there were more, many more, and they were always about how some unfortunate female was in the wrong place at the right time to end up dead, maimed or electrocuted because he needed data to represent a special value in a variable, or an attribute that could be tested to pivot to a common module.

Why, I kept wondering in the train on the way home, why did it have to be a woman taking the beating every time this teacher needed to set up values in a test situation? If woman is dead then... if woman is pregnant and in car crash then.... if woman is lame and can't exit the vehicle then... if woman slices her thumb in the kitchen ...

At point during the lull after laughter at some joke he had cracked I do remember saying "It's always a woman gets it in the neck, right?" I surprised myself in two ways: that my voice didn't tremble over the anger I was experiencing, and that I had even dared to ask the question.

There was dead silence for a couple of beats. The lecturer shrugged, grinned and said "If you say so..." and everyone but me laughed again.

I mentioned this experience to a male friend in law school, a friend!, but he was mostly absorbed by the advancements I described that were being made in computing, and in the end all he wanted to know was whether I thought that someday paralegals could be replaced by "robots that guys manage to teach how to do the work".

OK so I figured like in that same shaggy dog story,,,, "that's two."

A man and his wife were going home from church one Sunday in a horse-drawn buggy. As they approached a bridge over a high-running creek, the horse suddenly balked and the couple were nearly thrown from the vehicle.

The man slapped a rein against the horse's neck and said "That's one now, and get on with ye," urging the horse onward. The journey continued. As they neared the little park at the edge of the village another horse neighed in recognition. The couple's horse stopped and, being blinkered, turned his head as if trying to see into the park.

"That's two!" the man exclaimed, "Giddup now, giddup!" and the horse obediently trotted on. As they neared their homestead however, a few quail rose noisily towards the sky from roadside brush; the horse startled and nearly tipped the wagon over. "God blast it, that's three!" the man yelled. He got down from the wagon, drew his pistol and shot the horse dead.

"My dear," the wife said to her husband, as he returned to assist her down from the buggy for the now long walk home, "what on earth were you thinking??"

"That's one... " the man warned her...

All right so I quit counting a long time ago. But I'm more than peripherally aware that bias against women in tech professions is still a real thing and even if a woman lands such a career opportunity there are constant occasions that turn up having requirements to balance off what's "just how life is" and what is unacceptable even if sometimes only thoughtless harassment or roadblocking.
 
Im not trying to be a wiseguy. Im genuinely interested: why is it so important for it to be 50% women and 50% men? Why is that significant or an achievement in any way?
Your original post didn’t suggest that question.

But, for programs like these it’s fair and commons to use statistical averages as aspirational goals. A program like this will have a theory of change and logic model, both of which are commonly required for external funding. That will require the program to define their inputs, outputs, and outcomes.

I’m guessing here, but a really simplified version for Girls Who Code might look something like
Input: N girls aged xx with an interest in coding
Output: N girls able to code X
Outcome: 50% of professional coding workforce is female

The inputs and outputs are measurable, the outcomes are aspirational. 50% offers an aspirational target based on the percentage of females in the general population. That’s all. Nobody is mandating that half the coders have to be female, or that it should be harder for a guy to get a job, or in any other way that we collectively have to hit 50%.
[doublepost=1566430046][/doublepost]
Also, I didn't know Tim Cook ran Girls Who Code. So how exactly is Tim Cook "using code for exclusion & discrimination"?
I believe the poster was suggesting that “diversity and inclusion” are code-words used to allow “exclusion and discrimination.”

In which case, that interpretation of Cook’s comments is also incorrect.
 
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Considering we have an issue with less and less males graduating, less and less males going onto further education and drop out rates for males increasing each year...... seems fair and reasonable ‍♂️

I am all for equality of opportunity just not for equality of outcome, there is a big difference.[/QUOTE]

Forgive me for not going too far past your post to see those questioning your motive, care to explain the difference please, considering I personally don’t really know either as it’s not a topic amongst my field of study.

Thx
[doublepost=1566432499][/doublepost]
not gonna happen. it's easier and more common now for women to earn the same money (or more) posting photos of their behinds on social media, and getting paid to promote products to their followers or selling "premium" content through paid sites than to invest time and money in coding.

Considering I had dated a person that did that, and other “VIP” service(s) I’d think you either know someone in your past or you’re in university and have overeats or seen this happening yourself. Or you enjoy the funny themes of a sad world we live in shared to you on IG/Snap I don’t use the latter.
 
You, the general "you".

seriously, we need a better word for that use of "you". in french, they have two forms. a "Tu" which is "YOU" specifically, and "Vous" which is You, plural.

I think overall., these programs are good. They are an attempt to "even" the playing field in providing access when traditionally, women are still not accepted fully in many fields (especially tech, which is massively male dominated).

I am not particularly looking for equal outcome. Outcomes can't be equal because every human is different and will always have a different outcome. What I believe is required is equality of access, and that starts young and early, with the notion that male or female, or whatever the hell you (Vous) want to pick for yourself, you have equal opportunity to work without barriers artificially put in your way by those afraid to deal with greater pools of talent.

we still in our society stick way way way too hard to gendered stereotype roles. Women are generally not seen in tech. these roles lead to a lot of people not necessarily doing the jobs or careers that they wish. Men who don't go into Veternarian school because of "shame", women told they can't be programmers because they're girls. etc. This sort of nonsense is still rampant throughout the western nations, despite our claims of progressiveness.
[doublepost=1566416617][/doublepost]

Absolutely there are times and places for boys clubs, or girls clubs.

Countries that are the most gender neutral are found to grow farther apart in interests and job selection. Men with things, women with people.

https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/

COUNTRIES WITH GREATER gender equality see a smaller proportion of women taking degrees in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM), a new study has found.

Jorden Peterson also has an excellent topic on this as well:

 
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Your original post didn’t suggest that question.

But, for programs like these it’s fair and commons to use statistical averages as aspirational goals. A program like this will have a theory of change and logic model, both of which are commonly required for external funding. That will require the program to define their inputs, outputs, and outcomes.

I’m guessing here, but a really simplified version for Girls Who Code might look something like
Input: N girls aged xx with an interest in coding
Output: N girls able to code X
Outcome: 50% of professional coding workforce is female

The inputs and outputs are measurable, the outcomes are aspirational. 50% offers an aspirational target based on the percentage of females in the general population. That’s all. Nobody is mandating that half the coders have to be female, or that it should be harder for a guy to get a job, or in any other way that we collectively have to hit 50%.
[doublepost=1566430046][/doublepost]
I believe the poster was suggesting that “diversity and inclusion” are code-words used to allow “exclusion and discrimination.”

In which case, that interpretation of Cook’s comments is also incorrect.
If a girl wants to code there is nothing stopping her. This notion of everything has to be perfectly equal outcomes is absurd and a distorted way of thinking. I feel bad for people who think they need programs to get ahead, when in reality it’s all up to the persons own will and merit.
 
What a pile of....I hope you were sarcastic!

If you think what you're saying is true, just look at colleges Affirmative Action practices that they hire women/blacks with LOWER GPAs in STEM fields. So yeah, MORE qualified people also lose their opportunities.
What a pile of....I hope you were sarcastic! Colleges aren't hiring people in STEM, GPA has little to nothing to do with job performance, and women/blacks aren't being hired with lower GPAs. They actually have higher GPAs on average.

Educate yourself.
[doublepost=1566458945][/doublepost]
If a girl wants to code there is nothing stopping her. This notion of everything has to be perfectly equal outcomes is absurd and a distorted way of thinking. I feel bad for people who think they need programs to get ahead, when in reality it’s all up to the persons own will and merit.
You have a very naive understanding of the world. Very little of where most people end up in life has anything to do with their "own will and merit". It's not about what you know, it's about who you know. And on the macro scale it's not about what you can do, it's more about what class you were born into and what opportunities you have access to.
 
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If a girl wants to code there is nothing stopping her. This notion of everything has to be perfectly equal outcomes is absurd and a distorted way of thinking. I feel bad for people who think they need programs to get ahead, when in reality it’s all up to the persons own will and merit.
I don’t think you read my post carefully. This isn’t about “has to” it’s about aspiring.

Plenty of things could stop a girl (or anyone) from learning to code: access to opportunities to learn to code (e.g., computers, time) are at the top of the list.

And what are you talking about that people don’t need programs to get ahead? That’s what education is. The idea that people can succeed without supports is definitively flawed. No one has managed anything of value in isolation. We depend on others, for support, inspiration, motivation, and of course training. That’s what this program is about: training.
 
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I don’t think you read my post carefully. This isn’t about “has to” it’s about aspiring.

Plenty of things could stop a girl (or anyone) from learning to code: access to opportunities to learn to code (e.g., computers, time) are at the top of the list.

And what are you talking about that people don’t need programs to get ahead? That’s what education is. The idea that people can succeed without supports is definitively flawed. No one has managed anything of value in isolation. We depend on others, for support, inspiration, motivation, and of course training. That’s what this program is about: training.

That in itself could be a problem for anyone, including boys.

I think implying women or girls are somehow disadvantaged is the main reason why we dont see more in those fields I think is false. And we should instead be finding ways to make girls and women more intetested in those types of fields.

Thats why I posted the studies on womens/mens interests based on gender neutral countries.
 
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That in itself could be a problem for anyone, including boys.

I think implying women or girls are somehow disadvantaged is the main reason why we dont see more in those fields I think is false. And we should instead be finding ways to make girls and women more intetested in those types of fields.

Thats why I posted the studies on womens/mens interests based on gender neutral countries.
One good “way to make girls and women more interested” is by offering targeted programs.
 
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I think implying women or girls are somehow disadvantaged is the main reason why we dont see more in those fields I think is false. And we should instead be finding ways to make girls and women more intetested in those types of fields.

Thats why I posted the studies on womens/mens interests based on gender neutral countries.

You won't get an argument from me that even women sometimes (perhaps inadvertently and perhaps not) discourage their daughters from exploring budding interests in math or science.

"Ugh, you don't want to be handling angleworms dear..." and don't get me started on those quilting books that emphasize "No worries over block resizing, everything is pre-calculated and cutting charts are provided for all us math haters!"

FFS if they would even just at least say "arithmetic haters". And it's alarming that their great grandmothers sure god did the simple arithmetic and didn't waste paper making charts of block sizes they'd no intention of using. They had scissors, string, pencils, cardboard and glasses or teacups if circles were needed. We have acrylic templates in every shape and size one could imagine plus a few invented just because it's easier to trace one of them than sew two different shapes together to get that outcome. And we look down our our great grandmas for doing all that stuff the hard way. Shrug. I guess guys laugh at their great grandpas for assorted stuff too, save for maybe fans of very old cars and black powder guns.

So we're not that different, us boyz n girlz. We all progress together and we all have different ideas on what that means.

On the other hand, the study you cited has valid points for at least further study. I have never thought we should be trying to funnel anyone into a vocation or career in which he or she is not interested and enters anyway as response to pressure along lines of "you can make a lot of money doing this" or "you can always make a living doing this" -- or even "there aren't many women doing this so you'll stick out if they're trying to look diversified". :rolleyes: There are as many agendas around the kitchen table of an American home as there are in Washington DC.

I believe that encouragement and permission to explore interests are key to individual success of men and women... and advancement of a nation's interests as well. It goes not just for women entering STEM careers in Afghanistan or Iran but just as well for men and women being pressured in the USA to "be a lawyer... doctor... investment banker."

There's food for thought there when one regards the Trump administration's current push to return American presence to the moon, when we have spent at least three decades now watching our universities crank out engineers quite capable of realizing one can more profitably take rocket science straight into Wall Street and write algorithms to hedge market bets or convert analyzable debt into packages of derivative assets that are practically unfathomable. I cannot be the only person knows people with PhDs in STEM who have spent long stretches being taxi drivers or per diem teaching assistants in remedial math or basic sciences at state universities. We have a short term profit focus that puts quite a crimp on expansion of research and development.
If a little girl would rather sketch horses in a pasture than spend time wondering why it is that a rabbit hops but a weasel runs... why should she be pressured to major in biology or become a nurse or a lab technician? Maybe her artistic inclinations deserve more space and encouragement.

You can't make a buck doing that. You can't even pay off the college loans it takes to get the right to stick "Master of Fine Arts" on your CV. It's the kind of thing you do if you're just going to college to find a husband.

To that I say: tell that to Alyssa Monks...

We need to keep trying to minimize systemic overhang of the old views of "a woman's place" in our world. And so I like seeing more programs that encourage girls and women to explore options that used to be reserved to "a man's world." The existence of more such programs doesn't reduce the number of programs that are set up for boys or men. Programs, clubs (and magazines!) targeting males have been a fixture of American "how to do it yourself!" culture since at least back in the 40s as our fighting forces came back from the war and started trying to reclaim their lives and build or rebuild homes and communities.

To say we don't think women should be shoved into STEM careers now just because some of us got "woke" is not to say there aren't still roadblocks, sometimes unconscious, to a little girl's path to a tech career if she does find it more interesting than say teaching history or literature. Is it reasonable to put up those roadblocks? Maybe she's good at art but she's forever sketching the veins in leaves and the bark on trees. Maybe your daughter is a budding botanist, arborist. Maybe she's going to end up a politician advocating for preservation of a habitable Earth. And why not?!

Well... if she's also equally good at portrayals of the family cat and the weird light of the moon making grotesque animals out of orchard trees on a summer night, maybe she's not a scientist in the making. Maybe she's a a God given artist and someone should round up the dough to stick that MFA on her resumé by time she's 25 years old.

Further as to women and education: one can without much effort find teachers of history or literature who will testify as to the roadblocks still extant in the old boys' network of academia. We likely read more today about the ideological politics of university life -- for students and faculty as well-- but gender bias towards male dominance in university faculty can persist in the most subtle of ways. The experience of trying to thread the needle between overzealous reform efforts and resistance running to sabotage must be exasperating for administrators and advisory boards... and certainly for all those educators caught in the middle

Be all that however it continues to unfold, in democratically inclined countries now and by their rules of law and constitutions, women are emphatically no longer just someone else's chattel or capital (nor... cattle)

"Chattel": Middle English: from Old French chatel, from medieval Latin capitale, from Latin capitalis, from caput ‘head’. Compare with capital and cattle.

"Cattle": Middle English (also denoting personal property or wealth): from Anglo-Norman French catel, variant of Old French chatel (see chattel).​

Nope. Those older views do linger and in some quarters are still enforced. But the next generations of humans benefit more when women's skills, their talents, their view of the world we share are not only permitted but encouraged to be as fully expressed as those of men in the marketplace of ideas, in government and in industry.

We may still be finding our way in helping little girls choose a path forward -- neither pushing her towards STEM nor anything else, nor deterring her from exploring any of those. But we do know that as women gain stature and more of a place in industry, government, the arts, the world at large takes a wider view for all of her children and so for our shared future.

I don't know any women who argue only for success of their daughters, do you?
 
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My female don’t work or even study cause i want her taking care of my house and my familia including kids. She wont waste her time coding apps im the man and i will bring food 2 the table, someday. 4 now i prefer to relax and enjoy life u know what I mean? Women dont want 2 code they hate these things that clear. My mother can’t understand the remote control of the tv
I don’t know what’s more disturbing: Your post or the people who liked your post.
 
One good “way to make girls and women more interested” is by offering targeted programs.

I'm not against those programs and see the need for them, as long as they are teaching them the right things.

You won't get an argument from me that even women sometimes (perhaps inadvertently and perhaps not) discourage their daughters from exploring budding interests in math or science.

"Ugh, you don't want to be handling angleworms dear..." and don't get me started on those quilting books that emphasize "No worries over block resizing, everything is pre-calculated and cutting charts are provided for all us math haters!"

FFS if they would even just at least say "arithmetic haters". And it's alarming that their great grandmothers sure god did the simple arithmetic and didn't waste paper making charts of block sizes they'd no intention of using. They had scissors, string, pencils, cardboard and glasses or teacups if circles were needed. We have acrylic templates in every shape and size one could imagine plus a few invented just because it's easier to trace one of them than sew two different shapes together to get that outcome. And we look down our our great grandmas for doing all that stuff the hard way. Shrug. I guess guys laugh at their great grandpas for assorted stuff too, save for maybe fans of very old cars and black powder guns.

So we're not that different, us boyz n girlz. We all progress together and we all have different ideas on what that means.

On the other hand, the study you cited has valid points for at least further study. I have never thought we should be trying to funnel anyone into a vocation or career in which he or she is not interested and enters anyway as response to pressure along lines of "you can make a lot of money doing this" or "you can always make a living doing this" -- or even "there aren't many women doing this so you'll stick out if they're trying to look diversified". :rolleyes: There are as many agendas around the kitchen table of an American home as there are in Washington DC.

I believe that encouragement and permission to explore interests are key to individual success of men and women... and advancement of a nation's interests as well. It goes not just for women entering STEM careers in Afghanistan or Iran but just as well for men and women being pressured in the USA to "be a lawyer... doctor... investment banker."

There's food for thought there when one regards the Trump administration's current push to return American presence to the moon, when we have spent at least three decades now watching our universities crank out engineers quite capable of realizing one can more profitably take rocket science straight into Wall Street and write algorithms to hedge market bets or convert analyzable debt into packages of derivative assets that are practically unfathomable. I cannot be the only person knows people with PhDs in STEM who have spent long stretches being taxi drivers or per diem teaching assistants in remedial math or basic sciences at state universities. We have a short term profit focus that puts quite a crimp on expansion of research and development.
If a little girl would rather sketch horses in a pasture than spend time wondering why it is that a rabbit hops but a weasel runs... why should she be pressured to major in biology or become a nurse or a lab technician? Maybe her artistic inclinations deserve more space and encouragement.

You can't make a buck doing that. You can't even pay off the college loans it takes to get the right to stick "Master of Fine Arts" on your CV. It's the kind of thing you do if you're just going to college to find a husband.

To that I say: tell that to Alyssa Monks...

We need to keep trying to minimize systemic overhang of the old views of "a woman's place" in our world. And so I like seeing more programs that encourage girls and women to explore options that used to be reserved to "a man's world." The existence of more such programs doesn't reduce the number of programs that are set up for boys or men. Programs, clubs (and magazines!) targeting males have been a fixture of American "how to do it yourself!" culture since at least back in the 40s as our fighting forces came back from the war and started trying to reclaim their lives and build or rebuild homes and communities.

To say we don't think women should be shoved into STEM careers now just because some of us got "woke" is not to say there aren't still roadblocks, sometimes unconscious, to a little girl's path to a tech career if she does find it more interesting than say teaching history or literature. Is it reasonable to put up those roadblocks? Maybe she's good at art but she's forever sketching the veins in leaves and the bark on trees. Maybe your daughter is a budding botanist, arborist. Maybe she's going to end up a politician advocating for preservation of a habitable Earth. And why not?!

Well... if she's also equally good at portrayals of the family cat and the weird light of the moon making grotesque animals out of orchard trees on a summer night, maybe she's not a scientist in the making. Maybe she's a a God given artist and someone should round up the dough to stick that MFA on her resumé by time she's 25 years old.

Further as to women and education: one can without much effort find teachers of history or literature who will testify as to the roadblocks still extant in the old boys' network of academia. We likely read more today about the ideological politics of university life -- for students and faculty as well-- but gender bias towards male dominance in university faculty can persist in the most subtle of ways. The experience of trying to thread the needle between overzealous reform efforts and resistance running to sabotage must be exasperating for administrators and advisory boards... and certainly for all those educators caught in the middle

Be all that however it continues to unfold, in democratically inclined countries now and by their rules of law and constitutions, women are emphatically no longer just someone else's chattel or capital (nor... cattle)

"Chattel": Middle English: from Old French chatel, from medieval Latin capitale, from Latin capitalis, from caput ‘head’. Compare with capital and cattle.

"Cattle": Middle English (also denoting personal property or wealth): from Anglo-Norman French catel, variant of Old French chatel (see chattel).​

Nope. Those older views do linger and in some quarters are still enforced. But the next generations of humans benefit more when women's skills, their talents, their view of the world we share are not only permitted but encouraged to be as fully expressed as those of men in the marketplace of ideas, in government and in industry.

We may still be finding our way in helping little girls choose a path forward -- neither pushing her towards STEM nor anything else, nor deterring her from exploring any of those. But we do know that as women gain stature and more of a place in industry, government, the arts, the world at large takes a wider view for all of her children and so for our shared future.

I don't know any women who argue only for success of their daughters, do you?

I wouldn't doubt in the 50's such discouragement did happen. But now a days I really doubt that happens or extremely rare, unless your great grandma is still alive.

I'm not against programs that try to get diversity of people in certain fields as long as its for the right reasons and not because of a perceived bias or discrimination if the data is showing the opposite.

I remember when shortage of women in tech fields came up, some thought it was discrimination. When we look into enrollment in college for courses in STEM fields were low, showing lack of interest. Then it moved to women and girls were being discouraged from such jobs. So showing studies on scandinavian countries having greatest equality, showed even less interests in STEM fields. Even went to studies where they tracked new born babies eye movements between boys & girls when shown dolls & trucks showing preferences.

I don't think those things really help diversity,(Its bias/discrimination), only when we do things honestly. on showing how STEM fields help people, will get women interested in those jobs. Women tend to be interested in people, men more with things.







.
 
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A lot of insecure boys here pretending they are men.

Little boys that are scared of intelligent women. All the big muscles suddenly turn flaccid lol.

Neither of the posts address the arguments. They are ad hominem attacks. Ironically these posts both rely on sex stereotypes that men should behave a certain way and be ‘tough’. More ironically I find these claims are just the opposite of reality. The men who are scared are the ones who go along with all the ridiculous claims of feminism. They are afraid to tell women no.
 
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Neither of the posts address the arguments. They are ad hominem attacks. Ironically these posts both rely on sex stereotypes that men should behave a certain way and be ‘tough’. More ironically I find these claims are just the opposite of reality. The men who are scared are the ones who go along with all the ridiculous claims of feminism. They are afraid to tell women no.

No to what? Equal pay and opportunities?
 
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That is absolutely not what this program is about, and such gross mischaracterizations make meaningful discussion unlikely.

Of course that is what it is about. The goal is to promote girl coders. If you had a class to promote boy lawyers or doctors no one would try to argue it wasn’t discriminatory. The refusal to acknowledge basic truths makes discussion impossible.
 
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