HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray [misc discussion]

[monkeytap]

I'm not buying LoTR on HD-DVD just the Thing. Most of of my Hi-def movies are on Blu-ray but if I can't find them on Blu then I get em on HD-DVD...see where I'm going with it.


Bless

for sure, word. sorry...i should have read more carefully!


i deceided to go blu because I know its the better format, and think it will win.

i would only give hd-dvd a chance if warner goes hd-dvd exclusive soon, but it will most likely go blu.

if it drags on much longer i will give in and buy the 7 hd-dvd movies and get one of the free toshiba players with it....wait...is it the other way around?

 

[mkubal]

i agree with bonus features, most of the time there junk, and can easily be put onto a seperate disc for those who really need it.

BUT, why would you guess 30 GB is plenty given transformers is waaay shorter than any of the LOTR theatrical editions (not to mention extended!)???

my guess is, if hd-dvd gets extended, it will get the laserdisc treament..."Insert disc 2 to continue movie"

Don't most of the HD DVD releases come out on 15GB discs? Aren't some of those movies in excess of 2 hours?

I think it's pretty silly that everyone has become brainwashed to the point that now only 50GB discs are able to hold significant amounts of media. By all (non fanboy) accounts, there is no difference in picture quality between the two when comparing titles released on both formats.

Please explain what was wrong with Transformers. The AVS Forum thread that keeps track of the quality of HD-DVD releases rates it as one of the best. What gives? Please tell me you aren't on about the audio, which by all accounts was also superb.

 

[ChrisK018]

Amazon USA says no Hi-Def LOTR in either format is out. Is there a link?

I have time to wait for this format battle to pan out as I like older/classic movies that will have to get 'remastered' for the hi def formats.

LOTR is clearly an exception, and will be one of the first HD purchases I make if and/or when they are available-- (even though I have an upconverting DVD player).

 

[monkeytap]

Don't most of the HD DVD releases come out on 15GB discs? Aren't some of those movies in excess of 2 hours?

I think it's pretty silly that everyone has become brainwashed to the point that now only 50GB discs are able to hold significant amounts of media. By all (non fanboy) accounts, there is no difference in picture quality between the two when comparing titles released on both formats.

Please explain what was wrong with Transformers. The AVS Forum thread that keeps track of the quality of HD-DVD releases rates it as one of the best. What gives? Please tell me you aren't on about the audio, which by all accounts was also superb.

no, MOST hd-dvds are on double layer, including fan favorites 'tremors' , 'erin brokovich' , and 'dantes peak'

these arent large movies, for example dantes peak is just over 100 minutes, and not exactly top notch quality either. it just exemplifies how much space HD media takes up and how constrained HD-DVD is already, just one year into its life, and before its been established as a commonplace format.

the avs forum is a bunch of fanboys, IMO, so just cause some guy on AVS says "to me the audio sounds good" doesnt mean the audio is good. hidefdigest.com (a pro hd-dvd website) said this about transformers:

"Indeed, I had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality. "

and by the way, transformers is a 2 disc (both dual layer) hd-dvd release, so its not just the supplements!

 

[MRU]

no, MOST hd-dvds are on double layer, including fan favorites 'tremors' , 'erin brokovich' , and 'dantes peak'

these arent large movies, for example dantes peak is just over 100 minutes, and not exactly top notch quality either. it just exemplifies how much space HD media takes up and how constrained HD-DVD is already, just one year into its life, and before its been established as a commonplace format.

Actually triple layer HD-DVD's are already commercially available offering 45GB of size.

Also your assumption that disc size & quality are intrinsic is simply wrong. Do I have to reel off the dozens of BD discs that have poor quality over HD-DVD ? The CODEC is the thing, and seeing as both HD-DVD & BluRay both utilise the same codec these days for the majority of films (VC1) then the quality difference is negligble if any at all. period.

What you also have to remember is that as codec's become more and more advanced, the actual size of storage you will need to garner the same quality is actually less.

It is more than feasible that in less than 5 years time, a 1080p high quality movie will fit onto DVD9 (or even DVD) sized disc due to the advancement in codec's and compression technologies.

Add that to the increased speed offered by BB providers in the next 5 years, then it will be also more than feasible that Digital Delivery will actually be the real successor to DVD, and both HD-DVD & BluRay are merely transitional products.

 

[0098386]

Yea, I've got a few BBC HD shows on my HDD. In H.264 I can easily fit a good few hours worth onto a DVD9.

I suppose the limitation might also be streaming such high bitrate video from a slower medium (DVD)?

 

[MRU]

I suppose the limitation might also be streaming such high bitrate video from a slower medium (DVD)?

Possible, but I was more referring to the size in relation/comparison to current size requirements than the actual format itself.

More a case of pointing out the gaping holes in monkeytap's posts.

 

[monkeytap]

Actually triple layer HD-DVD's are already commercially available offering 45GB of size.

Also your assumption that disc size & quality are intrinsic is simply wrong. Do I have to reel off the dozens of BD discs that have poor quality over HD-DVD ? The CODEC is the thing, and seeing as both HD-DVD & BluRay both utilise the same codec these days for the majority of films (VC1) then the quality difference is negligble if any at all. period.

What you also have to remember is that as codec's become more and more advanced, the actual size of storage you will need to garner the same quality is actually less.

It is more than feasible that in less than 5 years time, a 1080p high quality movie will fit onto DVD9 (or even DVD) sized disc due to the advancement in codec's and compression technologies.

Add that to the increased speed offered by BB providers in the next 5 years, then it will be also more than feasible that Digital Delivery will actually be the real successor to DVD, and both HD-DVD & BluRay are merely transitional products.

really? please link your "commercially available" 45 GB hd-dvd discs. also, please show me a player capable of playing them. are you aware of the 100 GB, dare i say commercially available, blu ray disc? haha

when did i assume disc quality and size is intrinsic? i said disc size affects quality when you leave out particular features because it doesnt fit, do you disagree? seriously? are you sane? yes codecs is what ultimately matters, and if they use the same codec on hd-dvd and blu-ray than yes, neglible. BUT when you can compress less and fit more features (uncompressed audio ect), its a BETTER PRODUCT! not to mention blu ray has a much higher bit rate, but im sure you know that!

as if I didnt remember that compression is getting better all the time?!? that makes it okay to allow hd-dvd's size constraint to govern what we watch? you are what - justifying hd-dvd deficincies? plllllleeeaase!

and your wrong about digital delivery taking over. bandwith will not be fast enough for consumers to download a 30 GB version of 'tremors' efficently. MAAAAYBE in 5 years. also, people still want the physical medium. im good without it, but consumers arent!

im also not saying blu ray is the end all solution, best thing since sliced bread, blah blah blah.....its just better.

 

[e²Studios]

LONDON (Reuters) - High definition movie DVDs in the Blu-ray format have outsold the rival HD DVD standard in Europe this year, breaking the 1 million barrier and constituting 73 percent of all HD movie discs sold.

Citing industry sales data, the Blu-ray disc association said in a statement on Tuesday Blu-ray movie disc sales had topped 1 million units and when counting Blu-ray gaming discs the total number produced for sale in Europe exceeded 21 million units.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071127/tc_nm/bluray_sales_dc;_ylt=AvVYOf9sYrZYoPXh1v0E.tAjtBAF

 

[ChrisK018]

If Blu ray and HD DVD are using the same CODEC then wouldn't it make sense to support the format that has more storage capacity?

 

[takao]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071127/tc_nm/bluray_sales_dc;_ylt=AvVYOf9sYrZYoPXh1v0E.tAjtBAF

1 Million Blue ray movies in one year in whole europe ?
... not bad for 550 Million people alone in the EU (which doesn't include all europe) .. that means 2.739 per day

1 million isn't something outstanding or even spectacular .. transformers sold 4.5 million DVD copies ... on the very first day in the US

 

[MRU]

To the question at hand, if Blu ray and HD DVD are using the same CODEC then wouldn't it make sense to support the format that has more storage capacity?

But if the finished encoded movie would fit into both formats with room to spare, what difference does the extra unused space make ?

At this stage surely it's simply a case of being economically viable to support both formats. The ideal scenario for the consumer of course would be similar to the DVD+/- situation, so that we can finally put this argument to rest. I just wish they (Toshiba & Sony) had hammered out the agreement in the first place.

 

[Mackilroy]

I have no HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs right now, though I'm considering purchasing a standalone HD-DVD player (already have a PS3) so I'm covered for both formats.

 

[MRU]

The article about HD-DVD 45GB being commercially available was from a magazine called 'Pro Sound News Europe', which is a glossy industry style magazine that is published quarterly and is distributed to studio's and such.

I therefore just assumed after reading the article some time ago they were now available, however from what I have just read on the net it seems the 45GB disk has been scrapped in favor of a 51GB disk.

November 15th 2007.

DVD Forum, the international organization that oversees standardization of DVD and HD DVD optical disc formats, has finally approved version 2.0 of triple-layer HD DVD discs. The availability of physical specification of an HD DVD read-only media that can hold up to 51GB of data will allow the manufacturers to start producing the appropriate disks, whereas content producers may now start to think about how to use additional capacity.

The approval of DVD specifications for high density read-only disc [HD DVD-ROM (51G)] part 1 physical specifications, version 2.0, took place during the 40th steering committee meeting on November 15, 2007. Back in September, the DVD Forum also approved version 1.9 specification of 51GB HD DVD media as well as revision 1.0 of triple-layer twin format discs, which can hold up to 30GB of data on its HD DVD side and up to 4.7GB of data on its DVD side.

The new 51GB HD DVD ROM disc has a three-layer structure with each layer storing 17GB of data, which is an advancement in capacity over current ROM discs, which hold 15GB of data in each layer of a single-sided disc. Continued improvement in disc mastering technology has achieved further minimization in the recording pit, supporting a further boost in capacity to 17GB in single layer and a full 51GB on a single-sided triple-layer disc. Toshiba has confirmed the disc structure and its successful operation earlier this year.

 

[2nyRiggz]

Now now MRU...increase the peace remember that

1 million isn't something outstanding or even spectacular .. transformers sold 4.5 million DVD copies ... on the very first day in the US

Indeed but blu-ray is still leading the way and how much of those transformers disc were HD-DVD...that should be included in your argument...this is HD format thing correct?

Note: Next time I'm gonna charge you fees

Bless..copy protected

 

[takao]

Indeed but blu-ray is still leading the way and how much of those transformers disc were HD-DVD...that should be included in your argument...this is HD format thing correct?

of those ? none this number is just for ordinary DVDs ... after all my argument is that both formats are totally unimportant right now anyway and thus this whole "x sells better than y" is irrelevant right _now_.

i only have to look at those offers where you get 10 of either discs with a palyer etc ... for me that's more of a sign of desperation because otherwise those players would be sitting on the shelves

currently i'm still buying dvds ... more than ever before since prices drop really fast on them

 

[monkeytap]

It makes you seem like a child, or worse, a teenager/adult who doesn't care how they appear to others, but they demand respect regardless.

That said, I have no HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs right now, though I'm considering purchasing a standalone HD-DVD player (already have a PS3) so I'm covered for both formats.

good thing I am not demanding respect. like i said, this is an internet forum!! maybe I am a child , ever think of that? that would be funny cause I would still know a lot more than macrumor.

no blu-ray discs for the ps3? ohhhh, so you are the reason toshiba/microsoft includes the ps3 when talking about attachment rates! just playing, but why no b-d's if your thinking about getting an hd-dvd standalone? (waste of money, IMO, besides the 5 free movies)

The article about HD-DVD 45GB being commercially available was from a magazine called 'Pro Sound News Europe', which is a glossy industry style magazine that is published quarterly and is distributed to studio's and such.

I therefore just assumed after reading the article some time ago they were now available, however from what I have just read on the net it seems the 45GB disk has been scrapped in favor of a 51GB disk.

And thanks to the person who PM'd me. Yes 'monkeytrap' you are on my ignore list. If anything in the past few weeks has taught me, it's that life it too precious to waste time arguing with trolls on internet forums.

macrumor: thanks for wasting your time! like I said before, can you please link your information for the commercially available disc, not the one that was just approved last month!!!

in 2006, TDK unveiled a prototype 100 GB blu ray disc that is much more likely to reach consumers!

I agree with you, life is to short, and im sick of having to school you for free. (and get my grammar ripped apart!)

Now now MRU...increase the peace remember that

Indeed but blu-ray is still leading the way and how much of those transformers disc were HD-DVD...that should be included in your argument...this is HD format thing correct?

Note: Next time I'm gonna charge you fees

Bless..copy protected

here is a good measuring stick:
transformers (hd-dvd) and spiderman 3 (blu-ray, not counting trilogy) each sold roughly 130,000 copies in their first week of sales.

transformers (DVD) outsold spiderman 3 (DVD) on DVD by a ratio of 6-1. needless to say it would have done much better on blu-ray than hd-dvd, had it been released.

michael bay (transformers director) has explicity said that blu-ray is the better format and also that his money is on blu-ray to win. (two completely different issues)

 

[0098386]

good thing I am not demanding respect. like i said, this is an internet forum!! maybe I am a child , ever think of that? that would be funny cause I would still know a lot more than macrumor.

According to your MySpace page you're 23.

no blu-ray discs for the ps3? ohhhh, so you are the reason toshiba/microsoft includes the ps3 when talking about attachment rates! just playing, but why no b-d's if your thinking about getting an hd-dvd standalone? (waste of money, IMO, besides the 5 free movies)

My folks bought a HD-DVD player because they travel a lot and didn't want to be lumbered with a region locked HD format. I'll be going to same route. Just keep the PS3 as a games console.

Plus it has the (few) films I want to see. Not really into films.

More of a digital delivery kinda guy.

 

[P-Worm]

My family just got a PS3 for the Blu Ray player. So I've staked out my camp.

P-Worm

 

[Mackilroy]

good thing I am not demanding respect. like i said, this is an internet forum!! maybe I am a child , ever think of that? that would be funny cause I would still know a lot more than macrumor.

no blu-ray discs for the ps3? ohhhh, so you are the reason toshiba/microsoft includes the ps3 when talking about attachment rates! just playing, but why no b-d's if your thinking about getting an hd-dvd standalone? (waste of money, IMO, besides the 5 free movies)

Actually, yes, you are, because you want us to take your opinions seriously. That means we have to respect you, no?

Second, I don't have any because a. none of my friends have a hi-def player in either format, so if I go out and buy a movie I buy it in a format that I can let them borrow for a weekend, and b. because I don't buy many movies. I'd buy the HD-DVD player so I can get movies in both formats. Just because I own the player doesn't mean I have to buy the movies (at least, not with the PS3).

 

[monkeytap]

Actually, yes, you are, because you want us to take your opinions seriously. That means we have to respect you, no?

Second, I don't have any because a. none of my friends have a hi-def player in either format, so if I go out and buy a movie I buy it in a format that I can let them borrow for a weekend, and b. because I don't buy many movies. I'd buy the HD-DVD player so I can get movies in both formats. Just because I own the player doesn't mean I have to buy the movies (at least, not with the PS3).

truthfully, i dont really care if you take my opinion seriously. BUT, when someone claims your facts arent true, or that you are spreading FUD, I will not hesitate to prove that im not. macrumor can't say the same, he just ignored me (literally) and the whole issue. opinions are merely opinions, you can have yours i can have mine, but facts are universal.

although I dont buy movies so that my friends can borrow them, I understand your reasoning. I was just curious.

According to your MySpace page you're 23.

My folks bought a HD-DVD player because they travel a lot and didn't want to be lumbered with a region locked HD format. I'll be going to same route. Just keep the PS3 as a games console.

Plus it has the (few) films I want to see. Not really into films.

More of a digital delivery kinda guy.

you little stalker you! just kidding.....my point is that its an internet forum, and grammar should not be an issue, IMO. but if people want to get worked up about it, thats fine with me!

well just like macrumor said the hd-dvd group approved a 51 GB hd-dvd disc, in 2006 they approved region coding. it will see the light of day much before this 51 GB disc, if hd-dvd even makes it that long. as a consumer I obviously like the fact that hd-dvd is region free and has worse security, but when it comes down to it, its up to the studio and they will implement it when they want ( IMO, on the format with the best security and region coding, which is blu ray) if you think about it, the next generation format wont have worse security than its predecessor!

i like digital delivery as well, but I dont like downloading HD content over my bandwidth (not bad)! i would rather drive to blockbuster or order a movie off amazon than download a movie for a week or two and all of hog my bandwidth.

 

[GFLPraxis]

I don't know how you expect to be taken seriously when you outright say you don't want any respect

I disagree that an internet forum should not have grammar as an issue. The internet is amazing in that people are not judged by appearance, race, voice, disabilities, and other such issues.

The sole judgement people have of you on the internet is your words. Thus, by writing like an child, you create your own stereotype of yourself as being childlike.

 

[monkeytap]

I don't know how you expect to be taken seriously when you outright say you don't want any respect

I disagree that an internet forum should not have grammar as an issue. The internet is amazing in that people are not judged by appearance, race, voice, disabilities, and other such issues.

The sole judgement people have of you on the internet is your words. Thus, by writing like an child, you create your own stereotype of yourself as being childlike.

why do you ask how I expect to be taken seriously right after I just got done saying I dont care if you take my opinions seriously? apparently you spend to much time worrying about grammar, not ever completely understanding what your reading or saying. i didnt say I dont want respect, im saying I dont care if you give it to me.

im a busy guy, and earning the respect of my fellow macrumors readers who are judging my grammar is not a high priority. when someone, like macrumoruser, attacks my facts (entitled to his own opinion) I provide evidence of the contrary. Im not trying to impress you with my post about how grammatically correct it is.

by missing apostrophes in an entire paragraph, I am deemed a "retarded monkey on crack" yet you have offered nothing intelligent whatsoever to this thread except fixing my grammer (added 4-5 apostrophies) and leading a tangent.

 

[Mackilroy]

I think what GFLPraxis means is that one's level of commitment to something can be characterized by their willingness to conform to community standards. Here, we like a high standard of grammar and spelling and the like. You choose not to follow those - we take you less seriously than we might otherwise.

In other news, I wonder, is there a difference viewing the HD-DVD or Blu-ray releases of Planet Earth? As in, if I put the discs in and look at them on my 46" HDTV, would I notice any appreciable difference?

 

[mkubal]

no, MOST hd-dvds are on double layer, including fan favorites 'tremors' , 'erin brokovich' , and 'dantes peak'

these arent large movies, for example dantes peak is just over 100 minutes, and not exactly top notch quality either. it just exemplifies how much space HD media takes up and how constrained HD-DVD is already, just one year into its life, and before its been established as a commonplace format.

I'm looking over the Blu releases right now and while some of them do come close to 50 gigs, most hover around thirty and many are in the teens. If you claim 30 gigs isn't enough space I assume you have not bought any of these Blu discs that don't get close to 50 gigs because, as we all now know, 30 gigs is not enough space in which to put a good looking movie.

the avs forum is a bunch of fanboys, IMO, so just cause some guy on AVS says "to me the audio sounds good" doesnt mean the audio is good. hidefdigest.com (a pro hd-dvd website) said this about transformers:

"Indeed, I had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality. "

LOL. This is the epitome of quoting out of context. The very next paragraph goes on to rave about how the audio is amazing in spite of that bit you snipped out. Seriously, if anyone wants a laugh go read the review Monkeytap quoted from. Scroll down to the bit about audio and be astounded by his propaganda skills. Well played sir.

Unless you realize that you're doing this I believe we have a confirmed case of cognitive dissonance.

and by the way, transformers is a 2 disc (both dual layer) hd-dvd release, so its not just the supplements!

Sure if by "not just the supplements" you meant to say "the second disc IS the supplemental material."

Holy Christ! Do you really believe the things you say?