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VisualForces said:
*ANOTHER UPDATE*

Earlier today, I got a call from a support person saying that the engineers have taken my Pbook out of "hold" and have begun repair. About 9 hours later the staus got changed to "Ready to Ship" and then "Unit Shipped/Completed". I had left specific instructions to contact me first if they couldn't fix it, but it looks like it's on its way!

I don't want to get my hopes up TOO much, but I'm excited to at least see it's coming home...hopefully fixed.

We'll see... :cool:

**Prays** that it is is fixed since then I'll be able to send mine in to be fixed!
 
Anyone managed to get it fixed?

I am really torn between returning my PB before next Tuesday, or keep hoping that it can be indeed be repaired.
 
I'm wanting to update my iBook, and this is sort of worrying me. I'm a developer, and not sure whether this would bother me in Xcode or anything else. I'm sure it's just a firmware issue though. Will wait and see...

EDIT: I did see one yesterday, but didn't notice any lines. However, I didn't know about them then :p
 
Well, my local Apple store nixed the idea of me doing the swap there for capturning my current affected Powerbook. I was referred back to the Product Specialist and Customer care to arrange them sending me a new one, and THEN returning the 'bad' one.

This seems a little bizarre compared to any non-Apple retail experience I've had (including my experience in working retail).

I'll be calling all the people I'm told to call in hopes of getting this straightened out. If I reach an empasse in terms of getting conflicting info, I'll go for the DOA/refund....

Though I really think I'm onto something with this firmware/refresh rate work I've done so far...I'm going to test the laptop with an external LCD again tonight to look for the screen lines on the same photos I encounter the problem on with the built-in display, this time at the external's native 1280x800 res.(I did see them on the background screens before with the external LCD before when trying to run it at 1440x960)
 
I've arranged for a refund with my third party supplier on my bto
15". I've just got to eat shipping each way. Kinda' sucks, but better
than being stuck with this machine. It's boxed up and ready to ship, but
I'm starting to think twice about it if VisualForces and Jeff's reports of
getting fixed units holds as my machine is perfect otherwise. Please
keep us up to date.

I'm not convinced it's a refresh/firmware fix as if it was that simple,
I don't think units would have shipped that way in the first place or
returned units would have been fixed quicker w/o issue. But I could
be wrong.

I only wish Apple was more communicative on this issue. It's looking
more and more like they are going to lose another sale...
 
Get a refund or don't buy it.

Apple sent it back with the same lines and said it is "within spec" on the forms. I SPECIFICALLY told them to call me or email me before sending it back if they thought this was within spec as I wanted to discuss my options for a refund/exchange/etc. They sent it back anyway.

Time to let the world know about this screen.
 
http://discussions.info.apple.com/.68be73ff/0

looks like this is your posting to start this thread? are you ASE? if so, read the follow-up. He got his fixed - they are claiming that it's the graphics card sending out a bad signal - very similar to the possible explanation i was told by the tech i spoke to.

i will wait another day or so before sending mine in for exchange or changing it to a repair.

VisualForces said:
Get a refund or don't buy it.

Apple sent it back with the same lines and said it is "within spec" on the forms. I SPECIFICALLY told them to call me or email me before sending it back if they thought this was within spec as I wanted to discuss my options for a refund/exchange/etc. They sent it back anyway.

Time to let the world know about this screen.
 
Test Image

Here is a test image I put together to demonstrate the problems I am having with the screen. The image is at http://crankycat.com/pb15_problems.png and is around 436 K. It's meant to be used as a desktop picture, 1440x960. Download it, set it as your desktop picture and tell others what you see.

It relies on your Color Sync Display Profile set to the "Color LCD" that is set by default.

On my system, the upper left hand orange block has waves of lines moving from the upper right to lower left. The orange block right under it has some sort of stationary thicker lines. If you view the lower block in your web browser, the lines stay stationary as you move the browser window up and down. Both of these orange blocks are actually solid colors. I'm seeing these interference patterns on other colors. I see the intererence mostly in the upper left had corner of the display.

The middle pictures are what you get from the PB 15" display, the right pictures are the same except they have %5 transparent black lines every other row. Lined up as a desktop picture, the right pictures are smooth, even though they are darked every other line. If viewing from your web browser, you may need to move the window down a pixel for the effect to kick in.

Display these images on another monitor and the orange blocks are smooth and steady. The middle pictures are smooth, and the right pictures look like they are, well, %5 darker every other line.
 
Not fixed... no note... what the heck?

EDIT: My new hope is that they took a look at VisualForces and my screens and have concluded it is a firmware problem, not a hardware problem, and we shall see an update very soon...

~Jeff Corbets
 
I've returned mine for a refund. I'm going to wait 2 months
till MWSF06 where I can look at dozens of displays to see if this
issue gets resolved. In the event of an intel announcement, I'll
take advantage of the price drop and order some sort of g4 powerbook.
I want to stick with ppc at least 2 years through the ppc->intel transistion.

Going to make due with my 667 Ti book till then. Maybe I can
breath some more life into it with a clean OS install. Also going to spend
more time on my Linux desktop, maybe do that mythtv project I've
wanted to do for a long time.

Thanks everyone for the advise. Keep us posted. And don't put up with
Apple's shoddy and dated products at ridiculously exhorbent prices!!!

Back to the 'New Powerbook's next tuesday' threads :rolleyes:

Mandoman
 
nQuery said:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/.68be73ff/0

looks like this is your posting to start this thread? are you ASE? if so, read the follow-up. He got his fixed - they are claiming that it's the graphics card sending out a bad signal - very similar to the possible explanation i was told by the tech i spoke to.

i will wait another day or so before sending mine in for exchange or changing it to a repair.

Nope...the relevant thread is here...
http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@635.BjibaiqIS73.1901046@.68be6956

I apparently placed the wrong link
 
Ok - I see all of those effects you describe.

RE: the two orange panes - how do they differ colour-component-wise
(RGB)?

The darker, upper panel shows the light/dark lines that we all complain about on every other pixel PLUS the moving wavy lines.

The lighter, lower panel is quite odd. It shows a wider horizontal banding pattern. From counting the pixels it looks like one line of dark, three lines of light - repeating. From zooming in using universal acces, I see that it too is a solid colour, so this effect is also interference pattern.

I also see that the wavy inteference pattern seems to swap to the lower orange panel if you select anything other than "Color LCD" or "Generic RGB Profile" in displays pref.

However, moving the window to the right side of the screen, both interference effects are minimised - both oranges now show just the alternate pixel lines of light and dark.

On a related note, using the inversion test patterns from earlier in the thread (http://techmind.org/lcd/), the interference flickering was also most prevalent in the top left of the screen.

---

Hmmm upon closer examination of the screen very close up, there actually appears to be a mottled unmoving abstract pattern of light and darker tones - most noticeable in the oranges you have, but also in every other solid colour - do others see this? is this normal for an LCD?

---

Steve Lundgren said:
Here is a test image I put together to demonstrate the problems I am having with the screen. The image is at http://crankycat.com/pb15_problems.png and is around 436 K. It's meant to be used as a desktop picture, 1440x960. Download it, set it as your desktop picture and tell others what you see.

It relies on your Color Sync Display Profile set to the "Color LCD" that is set by default.

On my system, the upper left hand orange block has waves of lines moving from the upper right to lower left. The orange block right under it has some sort of stationary thicker lines. If you view the lower block in your web browser, the lines stay stationary as you move the browser window up and down. Both of these orange blocks are actually solid colors. I'm seeing these interference patterns on other colors. I see the intererence mostly in the upper left had corner of the display.

The middle pictures are what you get from the PB 15" display, the right pictures are the same except they have %5 transparent black lines every other row. Lined up as a desktop picture, the right pictures are smooth, even though they are darked every other line. If viewing from your web browser, you may need to move the window down a pixel for the effect to kick in.

Display these images on another monitor and the orange blocks are smooth and steady. The middle pictures are smooth, and the right pictures look like they are, well, %5 darker every other line.
 
The top orange is RGB {250, 91, 0}, the bottom orange is {251, 160, 0}, but as you have found out by playing with display profiles, what color is really displayed on the screen depends on color sync. So I don't have actual RGB values that the video card sends to the lcd.

Spectrum said:
Ok - I see all of those effects you describe.

RE: the two orange panes - how do they differ colour-component-wise
(RGB)?

The darker, upper panel shows the light/dark lines that we all complain about on every other pixel PLUS the moving wavy lines.

The lighter, lower panel is quite odd. It shows a wider horizontal banding pattern. From counting the pixels it looks like one line of dark, three lines of light - repeating. From zooming in using universal acces, I see that it too is a solid colour, so this effect is also interference pattern.

I also see that the wavy inteference pattern seems to swap to the lower orange panel if you select anything other than "Color LCD" or "Generic RGB Profile" in displays pref.

However, moving the window to the right side of the screen, both interference effects are minimised - both oranges now show just the alternate pixel lines of light and dark.

On a related note, using the inversion test patterns from earlier in the thread (http://techmind.org/lcd/), the interference flickering was also most prevalent in the top left of the screen.

---

Hmmm upon closer examination of the screen very close up, there actually appears to be a mottled unmoving abstract pattern of light and darker tones - most noticeable in the oranges you have, but also in every other solid colour - do others see this? is this normal for an LCD?

---
 
So , they did nothing?!?

I was hoping for some sort of fix. How is it that some are getting refund because it is considered DOA, and you get yours sent back?

I'm torn as to what to do - AppleCare told me to go to a local service centre to have it looked at, but I'm sure they'll have no idea of the problem.

I really like the book, and don't really want to part with it, but the lines are often so noticeable...its ruining my experience...

I've joined a thread here: http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?128@512.8MJ1avrvVSM.1704937@.68be6956

it looks promising for a firmware issue, but I still don't have much hope - some say this is what 12" screens look like - is this the case? pointing to a physical quality defect...

--

VisualForces said:
Get a refund or don't buy it.

Apple sent it back with the same lines and said it is "within spec" on the forms. I SPECIFICALLY told them to call me or email me before sending it back if they thought this was within spec as I wanted to discuss my options for a refund/exchange/etc. They sent it back anyway.

Time to let the world know about this screen.
 
Re:

The lines are very distracting for me as well, especially when working in flash and photoshop, I'm feeling very tempted to return mine, and wait it out for apple to make a fix. I bought mine last week through my university bookstore, and they're return policy is within 7 days, I'm outside of that (the university basically orders it for you from apple, that's how I was able to get it untaxed and with educational). Do I go straight to apple, call applecare, or am I SOL? This was my first mac too, and it isn't turning out to be so great.
 
They are the numbers I was interested in. It seems to me from looking at solid pure Reds, Greeens, or Blues, or combinations of pure colours, that the horizontal alternate pixel banding pattern is not observed. It becomes apparent as you add in half tones.

I had a thought (this may be very wrong): What if the display has reduced bit depth for colour reproduction? Then it would have to display half tones in some way by dithering - or perhaps by lightening the adjacent line...

It's just a guess... and would definitely not point to a possible firmware/driver fix...

I'm personally hoping its just a problem with the refresh rate, but I'm not hopeful.:(
-
Steve Lundgren said:
The top orange is RGB {250, 91, 0}, the bottom orange is {251, 160, 0}, but as you have found out by playing with display profiles, what color is really displayed on the screen depends on color sync. So I don't have actual RGB values that the video card sends to the lcd.
 
Well, displaying half tones by dithering via alternating lines doesn't seem to be a good idea, except if you want to cut costs I suppose. Somebody figure that since the resolution was so high they can create an LCD that displays less colors, approximate the missing colors by alternating line intensities, and nobody would notice? I would have rather they dither at the pixel level rather than the line level, but I suppose there are performance tradeoffs.

Of course I have no idea if this is how LCD's even work.

Spectrum said:
They are the numbers I was interested in. It seems to me from looking at solid pure Reds, Greeens, or Blues, or combinations of pure colours, that the horizontal alternate pixel banding pattern is not observed. It becomes apparent as you add in half tones.

I had a thought (this may be very wrong): What if the display has reduced bit depth for colour reproduction? Then it would have to display half tones in some way by dithering - or perhaps by lightening the adjacent line...

It's just a guess... and would definitely not point to a possible firmware/driver fix...

I'm personally hoping its just a problem with the refresh rate, but I'm not hopeful.:(
-
 
Steve Lundgren said:
Well, displaying half tones by dithering via alternating lines doesn't seem to be a good idea, except if you want to cut costs I suppose. Somebody figure that since the resolution was so high they can create an LCD that displays less colors, approximate the missing colors by alternating line intensities, and nobody would notice? I would have rather they dither at the pixel level rather than the line level, but I suppose there are performance tradeoffs.

Of course I have no idea if this is how LCD's even work.
I don't think LCDs do any dithering at all. If they get two only slightly different colors to display, they'll just look the same I believe. Why would panel manufacturers do any dithering anyway. I mean, what would it change. I never heard of that. My 17" HP TFT is just crap for graphics work (like most LCD monitors) because you can't tell colors apart very well, but that's about it.
 
I just checked the png file above on several laptops in the Willow Bend Apple Store in Plano and both the 15 inch ones showed the same symptom.
Although if I hadn't looked for it I would not have seen it.
Interestingly enough, the 17 inch one next to them was perfect, nothing at all!

Hm, makes you wonder about what this could be.
 
Wombert, I'm sure you are right. It was just a guess, I have no idea how LCDs work.

I've been playing around with halftones (an excuse to use the computer :) ), and made this RGB sheet up.

I've indicated under each panel its RGB components and whether I see the horizontal banding. Not very constructive I know... but well... I really am not sure what to do. :( Apart from this, the computer is great)

Maybe if I only take photos consisting of pure primary colours :D

--

Another thought: If Apple don't see this line issue as a problem, I can see these screens being a permanent fixture in the next rev of 15's too, MacIntel or no MacIntel.

--

Wombert said:
I don't think LCDs do any dithering at all. If they get two only slightly different colors to display, they'll just look the same I believe. Why would panel manufacturers do any dithering anyway. I mean, what would it change. I never heard of that. My 17" HP TFT is just crap for graphics work (like most LCD monitors) because you can't tell colors apart very well, but that's about it.
 

Attachments

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jeffcorbets said:
*** UPDATE ALSO ***

My PowerBook, which also was at AppleCare for the horizontal lines issue, also got changed to "Unit Shippped/Completed" this evening.

One funny thing - the AppleCare site seems to use GMT dates, i.e. my status change to shipped occurred on "11/10/2005"...

As soon as I get the machine back tomorrow, I will post on this forum.

~Jeff Corbets


do you have an update for us Mr Corbets?
 
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