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Horizontal Lines in New Powerbooks

wildcard said:
Hmm...according to Spectrum's ESPN shots, my display most closely resembles the "no-line" scenario. I don't have the vertical-horizontal screen-door effect that the other shots show.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... maybe those shots are more confusing than clarifying. The Lines/NoLines I refer to are the lines in the pattern of the ESPN logo that come and go as I move the image up/down one pixel at a time.

Are you saying that you cannot see the horizontal texture of the ESPN logo at all?

This is a magnification of the screen capture (not a photo):
 

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Spectrum said:
Hmmm... maybe those shots are more confusing than clarifying. The Lines/NoLines I refer to are the lines in the pattern of the ESPN logo that come and go as I move the image up/down one pixel at a time.

Are you saying that you cannot see the horizontal texture of the ESPN logo at all?

This is a magnification of the screen capture (not a photo):
Click to expand...

No, I see what you see in the screen capture...but when I scroll up and down, I don't see the lines going away (this is just scrolling in Safari, not moving the image in Photoshop on my laptop or anything). I did notice the "lines" when looking at photographs (like pictures of some of the sportcasters).

On looking at the screen this morning, the lines on photos or the grey background weren't as obvious (but still present).

I don't know if my eyes are adjusting to the new display vs. the screen on my Dell 700m (12" widescreen with TruBrite) or what. My sanity tests have been my girlfriend and co-worker who knew nothing about the lines issues viewing the screen; they see them, but concur (separately) that the lines are visible, but they don't have an impact on viewing images for them.

Worth noting is that me, my girlfriend, and co-worker are NOT graphic designers or otherwise inclined to work at a per-pixel level.

EDIT: Spectrum-I certainly don't have the "streaks" your screem capture has in the Safari bookmarks bar or on the red portion of the background, if that helps at all....
 
LCD Tests

Hi. If you read the explanation to the tests, you will see that it is supposed to flicker.



Spectrum said:
For me, this one causes flicker: Line-paired RGB subpixel dot-inversion

http://www.techmind.org/lcd/dotinvrgb2l.html

the green one does it too, but to a lesser extent:

http://www.techmind.org/lcd/greendot2l.html

(the others flicker only when you move them. These two flicker ALL the time)

Edit2: but only when I place them in alternate vertical pixel positions! In the other vertical pixel positions, the image does not flicker - what does THIS mean about how the display is built? Only half of the pixels power manage?

Edit3: Wait, this is more interesting! Open up this: http://www.techmind.org/lcd/dotinvrgb2l.html
in Safari and make sure the window is abutting the toolbar (as high as the window can go) - it flickers. But for me, move it to the right of the screen, but still at the top: No flickering! I have no idea what this means - anybody have an electronic engineering degree? :D
--



Edit: for clarity/spelling
Click to expand...
 
Errr. Yes. I think we know that. It is a test to determine what type of inversion is being used in the display. From my test it seems to be:
Line-paired RGB subpixel dot-inversion -
http://www.techmind.org/lcd/dotinvrgb2l.html

but, Line-paired RGB sub-pixel dot-inversion (160,0,160)-(0,160,0) (offset) - http://www.techmind.org/lcd/dotinvrgb2lb.html
does it too on the alternate vertical line positions.

The interesting thing I thought was that it only flickers on the left side of the screen :confused:

ybakos said:
Hi. If you read the explanation to the tests, you will see that it is supposed to flicker.
Click to expand...
 
ybakos said:
Hi. If you read the explanation to the tests, you will see that it is supposed to flicker.
Click to expand...

Not sure if this was a general comment or addressed to me...

If it was to me, then no, I didn't do any of the techmind.org LCD tests as of yet-my comments were all about Spectrum's screenshots.

If it was a general comment on the other hand, cool :)

Either way, I'll try the Techmind tests tonight.
 
mactim said:
I may have been lucky. I said I had a faulty screen that exhibited 'scanline' artifacts. We booted it up; I pointed out the lines against the default tiger desktop. I then asked if I could inspect a replacement, but apparently this was against store policy, so I asked for a refund on the basis of not wanting to waste any more time returning defective units. I was getting ready to argue my case for not paying a 10% restocking fee, but he credited back the full amount.
They MUST know about this issue. Every 15" PB in the London store has the problem.
Click to expand...

I did the very same thing. I was going to get another 15" but when I noticed all the store units had the same issue as mine I just got an iMac instead (which I have now traded for a Dual 1.8 PowerMac!) and the screen on that is perfect. Tisk tisk Apple :mad:
 
Which Dual Chrispy?

The Dual 1.8 From Jan-May 04 was a great value computer- Same PCI-X chipset as the then MidRange Dual 2.ghz (at the time) and only the tiniest fraction slower, but a significant difference in price made it one of the best buys I've had from Apple. :D

The later Dual 1.8 got rid of the PCI-X and limited ram to 4gb and was no way near as good as the model that came before it... :confused:

Hope you get the better model - mine continues to serve me well (though I had to upgrade the GPU and bung more memory into it)...
Probably upgrade to MacTel Powermac, Though if I had the money I'd go for a QUAD in a nano second :D
 
So I called AppleCare technical this morning and after clearly explaining the problem and even getting the support person (who was very nice) to go to espn.com, he told me to wait while he discussed with other techs ... after 5 minutes came back and said there was a hardware problem - i could send it in for repair, exchange, or credit. I went for the exchange hoping that new ones will have fixed the issue.

I asked what info he had gathered, and he seemed somewhat hesitant to spill the beans, but he said that it's a new product so they don't have much info yet - but that they don't think it's a problem with the lcd - it's a problem with the motherboard/graphics card ... eg. maybe a soldering problem on the board or something (his words). Which jives with the theories floating around about voltage regulation and the various flicker tests on the above mentioned site.

Anyways, fingers are crossed that my new one will not have this issue. If this one is lame then not sure what I will do .... the one good thing about this is that if it *isn't* the lcd panel itself, but the motherboard, it could potentially be easier to repair vs replacing the whole lcd panel.
 
Thanks for the update nQuery. Please keep us informed about your new machine. I'm most likely going to live with mine - I like the size/performance of the 15 too much to part with it now - but if there really is a hardware/software fix, I'll plump for it.
--

nQuery said:
So I called AppleCare technical this morning and after clearly explaining the problem and even getting the support person (who was very nice) to go to espn.com, he told me to wait while he discussed with other techs ... after 5 minutes came back and said there was a hardware problem - i could send it in for repair, exchange, or credit. I went for the exchange hoping that new ones will have fixed the issue.

I asked what info he had gathered, and he seemed somewhat hesitant to spill the beans, but he said that it's a new product so they don't have much info yet - but that they don't think it's a problem with the lcd - it's a problem with the motherboard/graphics card ... eg. maybe a soldering problem on the board or something (his words). Which jives with the theories floating around about voltage regulation and the various flicker tests on the above mentioned site.

Anyways, fingers are crossed that my new one will not have this issue. If this one is lame then not sure what I will do .... the one good thing about this is that if it *isn't* the lcd panel itself, but the motherboard, it could potentially be easier to repair vs replacing the whole lcd panel.
Click to expand...
 
Interesting that Apple is thinking its a motherboard or graphics card problem, but I still can't help wondering if it's in the soldering or shielding. If the 15 inch and 17 inch models share the same logic board, I would think it would almost inevitably have to be soldering or shielding -- unless of course there is something peculiar about the way the 15 inch panel picks up the signal.

I think it is worth noting that the 17 inch is a PC-industry standard in terms of resolution, while the 15 inch is a custom Apple-only size (the norm should be 1440x900 at 15.4 inches and a 16:10 ratio, not 1440x960 at 15.2 inches and a 3:2 ratio as the Apple display is).

When I have checked these computers out at the store, I am immediately struck by how good the 17 inch display is (yes, I know some people have complained about the viewing angle, but with such a large TN display, you can't really get around that one, and really, it's not bad), whereas with the 15 inch display I am always struck by the feeling of trying to refocus my eyes, which is a sensation I don't recall with an Apple laptop.
 
More tests (for interest purposes)

For fun, just been comparing the 15"PB with the 17" iMacG4.

Based on the inversion tests from: http://www.techmind.org/lcd/

- the iMac appears to use the same system as the PB
(both flicker with http://www.techmind.org/lcd/dotinvrgb2l.html )

but what I will say is the amount of crosstalk interference on the iMac is incredible compared to the new 15.

on crosstalk test 2 (http://www.techmind.org/lcd/crosstalk2.html )the area to the left and right of the white box is a few shades lighter than the rest of the dotted background. And very apparent if you open up another window (say system prefs box) over the pattern, and move it around.

This effect is barely perceptible on the PB15.

SO, I guess, some you win, some you lose :)
 
Damn Strange thing!

So i received Shipping notification earlier this morning, and just checked my emails and got an email from Apple telling me my order has been delayed? :confused: Weird...

Anyway checked Order Status and it's gone from Shipped to 'Ship on or before Nov 12th'...

Is this screen related I wonder?
 
Hmm..the fact that it may be motherboard/graphics card related makes me wonder if this might be something that could be corrected by firmware update (a bad refresh rate setting due to the custom resolution?). This would also jibe with the more common resolution of the 17" Powerbooks not having the same issue with the same motherboard/graphics chipset, and the fact that this issue is so widespread. A bad refresh rate was the one thing I couldn't rule out from ATI's link on common problems with DVI Flat Panel monitors.

I tried SwitchResX, a shareware utility for crafting custom display settings, but couldn't figure out how to re-import a custom profile or change a current one.

I also tried the Powerbook G4 Graphics Update found on the Apple discussion boards (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/powerbookg4graphicsupdate10.html),

but it errored due to me not having the correct hardware, or something similar.
 
Do all macs have that very conspicuous line running through the middle of the toolbar at the top of their screen( like in the first post pix)? If so... that stinks..... i have lines on my new 15'' btw....
 
g0gie said:
Do all macs have that very conspicuous line running through the middle of the toolbar at the top of their screen( like in the first post pix)?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's a part of the Operating System design.
 
i don't see a line on my 17" samsung LCD that my Power Mac is hooked up to. however, i do see the line my 17" pb.
 
Update:

After seeing some really obvious line issues on some images (if people look like they're composed of a pile of thin cold cuts at normal unzoomed resolution, you obviously have a line issue...), I called in to Apple.

The tech was very nice, but was clearly following a checklist of items (booted from install CD to confirm lines were present outside the OS, for example), he hooked me up with a product specialist.

It was interesting to note that the product specialist I spoke claimed that he was not aware of the issues. The product specialists don't read the Apple discussion boards at work; most of their info on problems comes from engineers. This leads me to wonder who actually DOES read the boards, but clearly there's no point in teeing off on these levels of support over the problem if this is true.

Apple engineers requested to "catch" or "capture" my Powerbook as some reports of this problem have apparently reached them. I was offered the choice of this capture or a Dead On Arrival exchange, but was advised that the capture would result in getting a replacement machine faster.

When I mentioned that we had a local Apple store, the product specialist offered to call the store, but the store manager was not in to approve the advance replacement/capture (this was a 8-8:30p Eastern time US). He left a message with the store manager regarding my case number and the request for an advance replacement. He will then follow up with the store at the beginning of his next shift to confirm if I can just bring the current PB into the local store for an exchange, or if I have to do the normal 5-day-turnaround ship to Apple to have a replacement laptop released and sent to me. As our store is relatively new, I'm optimistic that I'll walk out with a replacement 15", either previous gen or another DL (though I'll try everything in my power to check a new DL before leaving the store).


More updates to follow-but apparently this is finally getting to the engineers that there IS a problem with these things.
 
succesfully returned my CTO powerbook

Hey everyone, I've been frequenting these forums for a while and I'm posting for the first time. I've been waiting for Apple to upgrade the Pb, when it finally happened I rushed to buy one and after eagerly awaiting its arrival I started it up only to find these lines on the screen.

For a few days it seemed like i was the only one who had these lines, then the posts started mounting up here and on the official Apple discussion boards.

So I figured I'm not going to live with a defective powerbook seeing as how it was my first Apple computer. First I called apple care and i got a replacement sent out. replacement arrived complete with the same screen defect. I called apple care again they declared it DOA and set up a full refund.

So if any of you are concerned about being stuck with these lines, don't be. And don't even worry about the return policy regarding CTO orders, it doesn't necessarily apply because these products ARE defective.

Well i guess i'm going to wait till the next revision or maybe spring for a refurbished version of the last rev.
 
*ANOTHER UPDATE*

Earlier today, I got a call from a support person saying that the engineers have taken my Pbook out of "hold" and have begun repair. About 9 hours later the staus got changed to "Ready to Ship" and then "Unit Shipped/Completed". I had left specific instructions to contact me first if they couldn't fix it, but it looks like it's on its way!

I don't want to get my hopes up TOO much, but I'm excited to at least see it's coming home...hopefully fixed.

We'll see... :cool:
 
Now this will be *very* interesting to see what they have done ... please keep us posted! If it has been successful I might send mine in for repair instead of an exchange.

VisualForces said:
*ANOTHER UPDATE*

Earlier today, I got a call from a support person saying that the engineers have taken my Pbook out of "hold" and have begun repair. About 9 hours later the staus got changed to "Ready to Ship" and then "Unit Shipped/Completed". I had left specific instructions to contact me first if they couldn't fix it, but it looks like it's on its way!

I don't want to get my hopes up TOO much, but I'm excited to at least see it's coming home...hopefully fixed.

We'll see... :cool:
Click to expand...
 
I VERY MUCH HOPE they fixed it. I will send my powerbook in a snap if they did
 
*** UPDATE ALSO ***

My PowerBook, which also was at AppleCare for the horizontal lines issue, also got changed to "Unit Shippped/Completed" this evening.

One funny thing - the AppleCare site seems to use GMT dates, i.e. my status change to shipped occurred on "11/10/2005"...

As soon as I get the machine back tomorrow, I will post on this forum.

~Jeff Corbets
 
Out of curiosity, I tried Pixel Check, a freeware app intended to check for dead/stuck pixels. (link: http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/11661)

My thoughts were that if there were indeed a problem with the LCD, that the display would still have the horizontal lines even if the screen were filled with the same color.

I tested red, blue, green, black and white...NONE of the solid colors displayed any evidence of horizontal banding consistent with tests so far.

Wouldn't this rule out a hardware issue, pointing instead to a firmware and/or driver problem?
 
How many days from date of purchase do I/we have to return it for a full refund?
What I see of this whole thing is that no matter if the screen flaw bothers you or not, this issue is going to kill the resale value of this PB.
This is my third PowerBook and I've sold my other ones at very good prices whenever I decided to upgrade. This is not going to happen with this one...:eek:
 
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