Horizontal Lines in New Powerbooks

[lopresmb]

I've checked out a couple of these machines out and although I might be able to see these lines exceptionally faintly I feel like I have to "make my eyes see them and I have to be about 3 inches from the screen to make them out.

--maybe I just have bad eyes, or maybe just a good powerbook, I am not altogether sure.

 

[Kristine]

do you have an update for us Mr Corbets?

Not fixed... no note... what the heck?

EDIT: My new hope is that they took a look at VisualForces and my screens and have concluded it is a firmware problem, not a hardware problem, and we shall see an update very soon...

~Jeff Corbets

HTH

 

[MacTruck]

Somebody figure that since the resolution was so high they can create an LCD that displays less colors, approximate the missing colors by alternating line intensities, and nobody would notice? I would have rather they dither at the pixel level rather than the line level, but I suppose there are performance tradeoffs.

No way. My Thinkpad has a resolution of 1400x1050 thats about the same as the 15" 1440 by 960 and I don't have any of these lines. Its a defect, cheap screen or something. Send them back immediately.

 

[tribe3]

I've checked out a couple of these machines out and although I might be able to see these lines exceptionally faintly I feel like I have to "make my eyes see them and I have to be about 3 inches from the screen to make them out.

--maybe I just have bad eyes, or maybe just a good powerbook, I am not altogether sure.

I can live with the lines, but when you scroll pages, pictures, web, etc, it gives a very unpleasant stroboscopic effect

 

[Kristine]

I can live with the lines, but when you scroll pages, pictures, web, etc, it gives a very unpleasant stroboscopic effect

I find I am getting headaches from this and I am wondering if it is because of this stroboscopic effect tribe3 has mentioned - is anyone else experiences headaches or similar when scrolling web pages etc?

This is my second REV. E Powerbook; the first one was purchased from the Apple Online store in Australia - it was returned to Apple for screen problems (I am still yet to receive a refund after two weeks). My second Powerbook (purchased from an Apple Centre) has the horizontal line issue, which has been logged with AppleCare - they advised me to take it to an AppleCare Centre for further inspection.

The call centre operator I spoke with did confirm that there has been numerous calls regarding this screen issue. I am returning the Powerbook for inspection to the Apple Centre that I purchased it from (200 km return trip). I know that it is going to be impossible to get a refund but I will be happy if they can fix the problem.

I spoke with a staff member there to advise him I will be returning the Powerbook on Monday. I asked how long it will take for them to have a look at the Powerbook and fix this issue - he advised it may take several weeks. I also asked if any other customers were having issues with the screens on the new 15" Powerbook - he advised that I was the only person. I don't think that he would tell me if there were a lot of Powerbooks being returned for this issue as this would confirm that the fault is wide spread.

I am REALLY HOPING that the issue can be fixed via a firmware update...

 

[tekmoe]

No way. My Thinkpad has a resolution of 1400x1050 thats about the same as the 15" 1440 by 960 and I don't have any of these lines. Its a defect, cheap screen or something. Send them back immediately.

i have a thinkpad t42 with the 1400x1050 res also. i think the res is more comparable to the new 17" that i own.

 

[loktin]

I suggest that those of us with these faulty powerbooks should get through to the media; its the fastest way to get a solution.

I'm going to send a quick email to all the mac publications and hopefully they could do a story on it if it isn't already in the works. I got the feeling that this problem is so wide spread and serious that they've already taken notice, especially if the people there bought a 15" inch powerbook like the rest of us.

 

[generik]

In the words of a local product specialist when I pointed him to the Photoshop image "It is due to the underlying matrix of the LCD... if you'd try it on a different LCD you will see it too to some extent.... I have that identical PB as you and I work with it the whole day and I can see that the screen is beautiful, very bright and clear.."

Bleigh, I hope some media/mac publication will pick this up. Very bright and clear and beautiful indeed

 

[motherduce]

In the words of a local product specialist when I pointed him to the Photoshop image "It is due to the underlying matrix of the LCD... if you'd try it on a different LCD you will see it too to some extent.... I have that identical PB as you and I work with it the whole day and I can see that the screen is beautiful, very bright and clear.."

Bleigh, I hope some media/mac publication will pick this up. Very bright and clear and beautiful indeed

Mine arrives this afternoon. I will take pictures and hopefully NOT have the problem. Keep a lookout for my new thread about "The Arrival."

 

[Steve Lundgren]

It doesn't look like we are going to get anywhere with just the "line" problem. I suggest showing the product specialists the PNG image at http://crankycat.com/pb15_problems.png which shows interferance lines in the orange blocks. Hopefully fixing these problems will also solve the "line" problem.

In the words of a local product specialist when I pointed him to the Photoshop image "It is due to the underlying matrix of the LCD... if you'd try it on a different LCD you will see it too to some extent.... I have that identical PB as you and I work with it the whole day and I can see that the screen is beautiful, very bright and clear.."

Bleigh, I hope some media/mac publication will pick this up. Very bright and clear and beautiful indeed

 

[kingstontown]

Wow, this picture is the perfect example how it looked also on my display.
I sent mine back today btw, I didn't want to wait until they - maybe - fix the problem...

It doesn't look like we are going to get anywhere with just the "line" problem. I suggest showing the product specialists the PNG image at http://crankycat.com/pb15_problems.png which shows interferance lines in the orange blocks. Hopefully fixing these problems will also solve the "line" problem.

 

[Spectrum]

A user's perspective a few days on...

The lines: They is clearly a widespread problem, although not everyone reports it. I just wonder if it IS every display, but just that some users are more sensitive to it...

Anyway, I just want to convey my current perceptions of the screen - aside from the lines issue:

I generally view the screen moderately dimmed - it seems more comfortable this way (unless I'm in a bright room). But is this exacerbating the perceived problem?

I also detect a subtle weird sort of flashing/shimmery effect of the screen - most noticeable in areas where I am not directly focusing. It seems to be induced by sharply contrasting colours - text for example, or window borders. Is this normal for laptop LCDs? Is it my eyes/brain?? It is definitely fatiguing.

I don't remember experiencing this on my iMac G4 at work. But I'll check later - and also on a previous gen PB15 we have there.

The final thing: I am now starting to see (imagine?) subtler, wider horizontal banding patterns in certain pale tones - perhaps moving (interference patterns like on the crankycat image?). These are visible at distances that are too great for me to see the alternate pixel banding (Indeed I've started viewing the screen at a distance to try to avoid the horizontal pixel lines being distracting...). Examples where I see them are in the pale blues to the left of the text in MacRumors (where peoples' names avatars are).

It is as though the image isn't quite stable or something. ...wrong refresh rate?


So: Am I/we being too picky? I was happy with the comp until I found this thread - now I don't know. It's still a great laptop, and Windows is not an option for me, so I don't have much choice anyway. I've obviously been using it a lot more since my first assessments, but this is my first personal laptop for a long time - so it wasn't like I had another to immediately compare it to. However, I could immediately tell it wasn't as good as my desktop iMac screen, but then I never expected it to be as good/better. In my experience, laptop screens often have a sub-standard output compared to their desktop counterparts (case in point is to compare the screens of Apple laptops when connected to an external like in the AppleStore). but, well... I'm just not sure what to think.

For example, I never really wanted to plump for the 12" because it always looked to have a poor screen (IMO). Now I have a 15 with what appears to be a poor screen.

Specifics: If I'd not actually been told of the line issue, would I have ever found it as a defect? I don't know - I certainly believe I would be feeling the other effects described above, but I'm partially sure that even if I'd detected the horizontal line banding that I wouldn't have necessarily known that it was not a normal aspect of the screen construction.

Any other thoughts? Has anybody approached Mac publication sites about this?

 

[Steve Lundgren]

I sent my crankycat.com test image link to MacInTouch last night and it is posted this morning. I hope I don't end up spending for extra bandwidth this month!

The lines: They is clearly a widespread problem, although not everyone reports it. I just wonder if it IS every display, but just that some users are more sensitive to it...

Anyway, I just want to convey my current perceptions of the screen - aside from the lines issue:

I generally view the screen moderately dimmed - it seems more comfortable this way (unless I'm in a bright room). But is this exacerbating the perceived problem?

I also detect a subtle weird sort of flashing/shimmery effect of the screen - most noticeable in areas where I am not directly focusing. It seems to be induced by sharply contrasting colours - text for example, or window borders. Is this normal for laptop LCDs? Is it my eyes/brain?? It is definitely fatiguing.

I don't remember experiencing this on my iMac G4 at work. But I'll check later - and also on a previous gen PB15 we have there.

The final thing: I am now starting to see (imagine?) subtler, wider horizontal banding patterns in certain pale tones - perhaps moving (interference patterns like on the crankycat image?). These are visible at distances that are too great for me to see the alternate pixel banding (Indeed I've started viewing the screen at a distance to try to avoid the horizontal pixel lines being distracting...). Examples where I see them are in the pale blues to the left of the text in MacRumors (where peoples' names avatars are).

It is as though the image isn't quite stable or something. ...wrong refresh rate?


So: Am I/we being too picky? I was happy with the comp until I found this thread - now I don't know. It's still a great laptop, and Windows is not an option for me, so I don't have much choice anyway. I've obviously been using it a lot more since my first assessments, but this is my first personal laptop for a long time - so it wasn't like I had another to immediately compare it to. However, I could immediately tell it wasn't as good as my desktop iMac screen, but then I never expected it to be as good/better. In my experience, laptop screens often have a sub-standard output compared to their desktop counterparts (case in point is to compare the screens of Apple laptops when connected to an external like in the AppleStore). but, well... I'm just not sure what to think.

For example, I never really wanted to plump for the 12" because it always looked to have a poor screen (IMO). Now I have a 15 with what appears to be a poor screen.

Specifics: If I'd not actually been told of the line issue, would I have ever found it as a defect? I don't know - I certainly believe I would be feeling the other effects described above, but I'm partially sure that even if I'd detected the horizontal line banding that I wouldn't have necessarily known that it was not a normal aspect of the screen construction.

Any other thoughts? Has anybody approached Mac publication sites about this?

 

[Steve Lundgren]

Just peeked at my logs and have 60+ unique hits on the image from MacInTouch in the last 50 minutes.

I sent my crankycat.com test image link to MacInTouch last night and it is posted this morning. I hope I don't end up spending for extra bandwidth this month!

 

[jeffcorbets]

Hi everyone,

In case I did not make it clear earlier, my PowerBook came back from AppleCare with the same screen, same logic board, and still with the lines. They did replace the faulty SuperDrive though...

My screen does do some other funny things... diagonal scan lines on certain colors, etc - very similar to what some other people have posted about in this thread and on the Apple discussion forums. And yes, before I sent it in, I was getting a headache from using the computer for an extended amount of time.

After receiving the computer back, I called AppleCare immediately to complain that they did not fix the lines or provide any guidance on the issue, i.e. lines are within specs. The AppleCare guy apologized and said I could send it back in, or maybe a better option, take it to a local Apple Store (which is 200 miles away). I told him I would be closest to an Apple Store when I go home during Thanksgiving week, and that I would take it in then. In the meantime I have put one of Macally's Screen Protectors on the screen and while it makes the screen like a TruBright screen (very reflective) it does take a bit of the contrast out of the lines. I am going to see if it makes the computer usable for extended periods of time, but if not, I will just connect it up to an external screen until I can part with it again.

I did ask the AppleCare guy if he thought this was a widespread problem and he replied that he "truly believed in Apple products" and because they're new machines and he only takes maybe twenty trouble calls a day, he really could not say if it afflicted all machines. I asked if that meant a lot of callers are reporting this as an issue and he repeated that he truly believes in Apple products...

I am still hoping it is a firmware problem and can be fixed with a software update rather than replacing hardware. If I were Apple, I would also be hoping for that and working feverishly to track it down.

~Jeff Corbets

 

[kingstontown]

it's so easy to become famous!

Just peeked at my logs and have 60+ unique hits on the image from MacInTouch in the last 50 minutes.

 

[VisualForces]

Steve...NICE comparisons...that's exactly what it looks like. Have you posted that shot over at Apple yet?

If you're worried about bandwidth, just do what I did and put it as an attachment here and let MacRumors worry about bandwidth. I went ahead and compressed the image down to fit as an attachment here, so now you can just link to this.

That shot NEEDS to be on Apple's forums

*Oh...and for those wondering why mine was sent back to me, I didn't send it in for a refund. I sent it to be fixed. I told them to call me or email me if they couldn't fix or if they were going to send it back "as is". They didn't. I'm pretty much screwed right now as I have to have a laptop the next few weekends. It's looking more and more like a lawsuit is the only thing that will shake Apple's tree.

grrrrrrrrr

 

[Steve Lundgren]

Yes, it's over at Apple's forums too.

http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@585.M7R0aDtFVbP.2204348@.68be4efe

I hesitated posting it at first since I haven't talked to Apple about it yet, and I was waiting to see how Apple dealt with yours. Well, we know how they dealt with yours now, so I've been posting it to other places. The place that has given me the most traffic so far is MacInTouch, even though it has been up there for the shortest amount of time. People may be fed up with the Apple forums now that they are locking threads.

I plan on setting this image as my desktop image and sending it back to Apple at some point, but it's my only computer right now and I need it for a presentation this weekend. Also, I'm hoping they will start accepting them as defects.

I think it might help for others seeing the problems to post something in the the Apple discussion threads pointing to my image. Keep them alive. But keep in on topic and civil, maybe they won't get locked down.

Some thread suggestions:

Apple Says Lines are NORMAL?!?!?!
Interference artifacts on my new 1440 x 960 PowerBook? (mine)
Thinking of sending your PB in to fix the horizontal lines?
15" DL Powerbook horizontal lines-software issue?

Steve...NICE comparisons...that's exactly what it looks like. Have you posted that shot over at Apple yet?

If you're worried about bandwidth, just do what I did and put it as an attachment here and let MacRumors worry about bandwidth.

That shot NEEDS to be on Apple's forums

*Oh...and for those wondering why mine was sent back to me, I didn't send it in for a refund. I sent it to be fixed. I told them to call me or email me if they couldn't fix or if they were going to send it back "as is". They didn't. I'm pretty much screwed right now as I have to have a laptop the next few weekends. It's looking more and more like a lawsuit is the only thing that will shake Apple's tree.

grrrrrrrrr

 

[fps]

Well there we go... mine too!

Just got the 15" with 7200rpm HD yesterday from a Mac reseller in West London and it has the screen pbm. SN: W8544
It will go back on Monday for a full refund until this issue is acknowledged and sorted out by Apple once and for all.
The ESPN test and post#317 from VisualForces did it for me. Note that yesterday when I got it I thought the screen was ok but once you see the obvious it's quite in your face...
Too bad I already ordered 2GB of Kingston memory, bags, protection skin and the likes
At least I have my Powermac to fall back on

 

[Spectrum]

Trip to independent repair centre

So, just spoken to a tech. I say: "do you see anything wrong with my screen?"

"It's beautiful screen. Very bright. No problems."

"...so.. you don't see the horizontal lines...?"

"...lines... ???? .... no. No lines"

"But the brighter lines of pixels, they're everywhere. Aren't they? AREN'T THEY?!?!" (hysteria )

" no. No lines. It's a beautiful display. You should see some of these in here..."

Ok, I'll give up there on the recounting of the conversation. Basically he did in the end admit to seeing the lines, but just considered them to be part of the display construction. And if I really thought it a problem, I should take it to the AppleStore and show them - He said he would replace it for me if I really wnted, but that it would likely get exactly the same (or worse) screen back...

To be fair, there was a new 15 with awful white patches on it being repaired. How, you ask, did I know it was a new one? (Here's a clue: It was only showing the Apple logo in the centre of the screen on a PALE BLUE background... and guess what I could see...)

---

Now for some fun!

Has anybody tried using the calibration utility in the Displays>Colours ?

It is laughable. The best calibration changes as you move the window up and down one pixel height! Particularly apparent on the second calibration step for the native gamma value. So what are you meant to do?!?!?!

I'm going to go to the Apple Store this weekend - but I fully expect to observe ALL 15"PB with this "display feature".

oh dear.

Spectrum

 

[Chrispy]

I really need a widescreen laptop and this issue is so widespread and ignored by Apple that I am going to probably pickup a toshiba for portable use. I have a PM 1.8 Dual and a Dell 2005FPW so that will take care of my mac needs. Sad that I have to resort to a PC becuase Apple can't get their screens right... oh and I ordered the Dell 2005FPW becuase there is NO WAY I would ever buy an Apple display!

 

[Clix Pix]

No problems here...

I must be very fortunate, as I have not experienced ANY of the issues mentioned here. My new 15" PB has a beautiful, bright screen and NO signs of horizontal lines, banding or flickers (except briefly the first time I rebooted after upgrading to v.10.4.3). Ordered it as a BTO a couple of days after the announcement of the new revisions and it arrived in a timely fashion with no glitches. The screen was gorgeous from Day One, right out of the box.

That said, it certainly seems that there is a critical issue going on here that Apple needs to address sooner rather than later, because too many people are reporting too many similar problems and that's not good. I hope that for everyone's sake that this is something which can readily be fixed by a simple firmware upgrade and that this happens very soon.

OTB

 

[generik]

I doubt it is a firmware issue though, it really does seem like a defective LCD panel. Whether Apple is cutting costs ordering a cheap part, or they got conned by their suppliers, I do not know.. but the fact remains

 

[generik]

Lol, really reminds me of that guy I spoke with.

Maybe as part of staff training all trainees must look at defects and say with conviction "it is a beautiful defective item!"

So, just spoken to a tech. I say: "do you see anything wrong with my screen?"

"It's beautiful screen. Very bright. No problems."

"...so.. you don't see the horizontal lines...?"

"...lines... ???? .... no. No lines"

"But the brighter lines of pixels, they're everywhere. Aren't they? AREN'T THEY?!?!" (hysteria )

" no. No lines. It's a beautiful display. You should see some of these in here..."

 

[Chrispy]

This really just makes me sick.... I can't believe so many of you are stuck with POS computers! Apple deserves to have their a$$es handed to them on this one. This is the worst business practice I have seen in a long time... all I can say is WTF Apple

I have to admit... I think I can see why some companies would be afraid to use Apple hardware... when there is a problem with Apple hardware it tends to be widespread and it takes them awhile to even admit there is a problem... not good for a business.