Horizontal Lines in New Powerbooks

[verveshen]

Frankly speaking, I was one of the guys who THINK of having a flawless powerbook 15" DL-SD. However, I have to admit that I am WRONG!! It isn't flawless! I have the lines, many many. I called the Apple Care and they confirmed that it is a problem ("rare case!" I don't believe at all). Unfortuantely, it may take about 6 weeks to fix it (implying that I won't get it done until next year!). Come on, Apple, I am your fans! I need a perfect product.

 

[Spectrum]

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repeating, only noticable on the crankycat file when said file is saved to disk and opened in Preview. The file viewed in Safari still has the original effect.

Are you sure you are not looking at it in Preview slightly resized? The line pattern changes (on the right-hand images) for me if the image is slightly zoomed in. And it moves all over the place as I scroll one pixel at a time. As expected, the left hand images (not the orange ones) do not change their pixel by pixel line banding no matter how they are zoomed.

My "lines" issue is extremely subtle now after wiping the factory image and reinstalling; so much so that I'm debating on if returning it to Apple is really necessary. The only suggestion I have to affected folks is to try reimaging the hard drive-you really have nothing to lose by trying it.

Hmm. I've worked on Macs for a number of years, but I'm a novice when it comes to things like this...

 

[Fireburst]

I have also contacted them today and I awaiting the technical dept to contact me with further updates. The chap I spoke to hadn't heard of this problem!!!

 

[wildcard]

Are you sure you are not looking at it in Preview slightly resized? The line pattern changes (on the right-hand images) for me if the image is slightly zoomed in. And it moves all over the place as I scroll one pixel at a time. As expected, the left hand images (not the orange ones) do not change their pixel by pixel line banding no matter how they are zoomed.



Hmm. I've worked on Macs for a number of years, but I'm a novice when it comes to things like this...

Grr...you were right-the Preview image WAS slightly zoomed. This Powerbook is definitely going back to Apple

 

[kensuf]

very disappointed..

So my 2.5->3 year old tibook is starting to get a bit long in the tooth, and I had been eagerly waiting for the "next Tuesday" update since September. However, after the update was released and the horizontal line issue threads started popping up, I decided to hold up on the order until I could go and see one of the new beasts in person.

This weekend I made the 90 minute drive over to the Apple Store in Jacksonville to look at the new units. After spending about 30 minutes playing with the two demo models on the floor, I have to wonder how any of you could stand these screens. The line issue was very pronounced, and because I found it so difficult to focus on different fonts because of it, I started to develop a headache.

As it currently stands, the screen in the two demo models I played with is not usable. If Apple thinks these screens are normal, or can't correct the problem soon, I'll probably just wind up with a refurbed 1.67 1280x854 model.

 

[jss273nyc]

I have lines too but...

So I'm on my second PB 15" because the first had some sort of logic board issue that caused my ethernet not to work. I just returned it for another which seems to be working fine except upon reading this forum, I realize that I too have the horizontal line scan problem. I have to say though, you really don't notice it unless you are very close to the screen. I also do a lot of graphics as I am an architect and it really hasn't impeded my work flow. The cost of not having my PB vs. having it "fixed" by Apple is too great. Is it really as terrible as people think? I was looking at my colleagues Rev. C 15" PB and the screen seems so lackluster and dim that I would rather have minute horizontal lines than a super dim screen. Any other people feel the same way?

Serial W8542A95SW.

 

[Spectrum]

this is the response I keep getting - how many different people work at AppleCare??? and how many complaints??? the odds are narrowing surely...

The tech guy just returned with a call, and I missed it, but he apparently told me to turn it into a Mac genius for them to see... I will next I'm downtown.

What I would like to know:

Has anybody who has seen the lines, also NOT see them on any current new 15"PB ANYWHERE in the world?

I can live with the lines if I really have to, because I don't do editing that is critical to my job, but I still think it is unacceptable on such a top-end/expensive machine - with upgrades and tax, I paid nearly $3000 - and I think we should get a fix somehow.

How possible would it be to create a 5% scan line overlay that sits ontop of all of the displayed graphics, brightening the dark lines? It would have to be integrated into the OS somehow, but would this be possible as a fix?

I have also contacted them today and I awaiting the technical dept to contact me with further updates. The chap I spoke to hadn't heard of this problem!!!

 

[Martym]

Have the same prob with a four day old PB. Was brought new here in Wellington New Zealand. Thought I was seeing things useing photoshop so will be makeing some inquireries today as to what is going on.

 

[MacTruck]

Have the same prob with a four day old PB. Was brought new here in Wellington New Zealand. Thought I was seeing things useing photoshop so will be makeing some inquireries today as to what is going on.

All the new 15" powerbooks have a defective screen, apple is not fixing, you can get a refund if you push. I suggest you push.

 

[kingstontown]

It was the Gravis store in Munich, Germany. This is one of the biggest Apple stores in GER.

OK, so you seem to be the only person that I am aware of that has seen both good and bad 15" screens. Is this correct?

If so, I definitely think we should all be inline for a replacement.

Which store did you see the good one?

 

[Wombert]

It was the Gravis store in Munich, Germany. This is one of the biggest Apple stores in GER.

I was in the Gravis store in Munich, Germany several times and the 15" PB there has the lines. Trust me. I know what they look like

 

[generik]

All the new 15" powerbooks have a defective screen, apple is not fixing, you can get a refund if you push. I suggest you push.

They won't refund, they will just tell you it is normal.

 

[dblissmn]

Depends what you use it for

Every 15 incher I have seen shows the lines on medium colors and lower contrast photos. On high contrast photos you have to look hard and you probably aren't going to notice it in word processing or spreadsheet work -- although it does render text softly in my view compared to the 17, the 12 and just about any Apple LCD display I have ever seen under OS X. And maybe that soft rendering is also related to the lines thing.

Bottom line, pardon the pun, not everyone will see the lines because of the way they don't show on bright white (interestingly they don't seem to show on the primary RGB colors either).

But anyone should be able to see that text does not render as sharply as other Apple displays, and for people having trouble distinguishing the lines, this should be the acid test.

So, is it firmware? Or did Apple get the short straw on the genuinely unique panel they have used (1440x960 is a first in the industry)? Just because of the situations in which the lines show or don't I think it almost surely has to be firmware, with the cable from the logic board to the screen a distant second as a possibility. I would be very surprised if it's the panel.

 

[generik]

I think it is probably the panel.. Steve probably had the option between a panel without lines for $100 and a panel with lines for $99, and he took the cheaper option

 

[zooey74]

If I buy a PB and it has the lines, and in a couple months Apple announces a fix or something for it, will I be able to exchange mine for the "fixed" model?

 

[Wombert]

If I buy a PB and it has the lines, and in a couple months Apple announces a fix or something for it, will I be able to exchange mine for the "fixed" model?

If they issue a recall, which is not that likely right now apparently

 

[mizzi]

i bought a new 15" powerbook yesterday and am awaiting it's arrival. i cannot begin to tell you how nervous i am right now...

 

[generik]

i bought a new 15" powerbook yesterday and am awaiting it's arrival. i cannot begin to tell you how nervous i am right now...

I really suggest you cancel the order, that's not the way to receive a new mac...

Buy something else if it bugs you, like a PM 2.0 dual or something.

 

[mizzi]

i definitely need the mobility of a powerbook and 17" is just too big to be practical in my intended use...and 12" is just too small. this would have been ideal...now i'm quite nervous. can anyone pat me on the head and tell me everything will be alright? hah

 

[dblissmn]

Apple's pattern in the past on stuff like this has been to recall it, but it usually seems to take them a few months. Example -- the infamous "white spots" on late Titanium Powerbooks and early Aluminum Powerbooks in 2003, due to a poor design for "spacers" positioning the display panel inside the shell; those are all under recall regardless of warranty or AppleCare status.

I strongly suspect it is a firmware problem with the signal being output by the video card; the lines don't show on pure white or pure primary RGB, and there have been anecdotal reports of people with a hackers' knowledge of UNIX figuring out that the computer is providing the display with something a bit below the normal 60Hz LCD refresh. I also expect Apple will eventually fix it. But I also expect that, as with other trouble like this in the past, it will take a few months for Apple to issue a fix.

You might also consider a 12 inch Powerbook with an external monitor, which is the route I am going. If you get the computer and Apple display on the same invoice, the display qualifies for the three-year AppleCare at no additional expense (i.e., the AppleCare you purchase for the Powerbook any time within the first year also automatically covers the monitor if the monitor is on the same invoice). If you don't get computer and monitor on the same invoice I would suggest a third party monitor because Apple does not sell AppleCare for the monitors separately. Note that despite the silly same-invoice rule for the display, you do not also have to have the AppleCare policy itself on that invoice; just remember to get the AppleCare within the first year.

 

[fps]

Sorry...

i definitely need the mobility of a powerbook and 17" is just too big to be practical in my intended use...and 12" is just too small. this would have been ideal...now i'm quite nervous. can anyone pat me on the head and tell me everything will be alright? hah

I'll make it easier for you. It won't be ok... And even if you think it's ok because you're not bothered by the line it's still a defective display.
I returned mine today (full refund) and I was gutted...

 

[mizzi]

as a photographer/aspiring graphic designer, i will notice...i promise you this. but it appears that not everyone is having this issue...

 

[kensuf]

On high contrast photos you have to look hard and you probably aren't going to notice it in word processing or spreadsheet work -- although it does render text softly in my view compared to the 17, the 12 and just about any Apple LCD display I have ever seen under OS X. And maybe that soft rendering is also related to the lines thing.

But anyone should be able to see that text does not render as sharply as other Apple displays, and for people having trouble distinguishing the lines, this should be the acid test.

IMHO, the font rendering is completely unacceptable to me. I use my powerbook for software development, documentation, and systems administration. All of these tasks is very text oriented, and if I tried to work a normal day with this display I'd probably go batty.

So, is it firmware? Or did Apple get the short straw on the genuinely unique panel they have used (1440x960 is a first in the industry)? Just because of the situations in which the lines show or don't I think it almost surely has to be firmware, with the cable from the logic board to the screen a distant second as a possibility. I would be very surprised if it's the panel.

I do find it interesting though that the aspect ratio between a 1280x854 monitor and 1440x960 monitor is nearly identical (per notes here) so the soft rendering should not be a problem with the way OS-X renders fonts.

Personally, I think it's possible that it's a driver, or as you said a firmware issue..

No matter what the cause, it's a complete shame that what could be such a killer laptop is plagued with this glaring defect.

 

[londonweb]

I bought a new 15" pb from an apple store. The ones I looked at in the store had the lines. I bought one anyway, got it home, it had the lines too. It also had a dead pixel. I took it back and exchanged it, and the new one has lines as well. I know I'm going over old ground but my point is that all these pbs seem to have the same issue, and I'm very sceptical of people saying they can't see it. Either they're in denial having spent so much money, or they've got blurry vision.

My advice to anyone considering buying is that if you think this'll bother you, don't go and buy one hoping that it won't have the lines issue, because it will.

Personally, they don't bother me. The problem is barely noticeable unless you're looking out for it, and I think the screen brightness, clarity, viewing angles, brightness consistency, colour accuracy etc. is leagues ahead of what it was on the previous pbs, and this more than makes up for the lines issue. Like many others on this thread, I am a professional designer, and I'm extremely fussy about my displays. I would never trust a notebook display to proof any work that I was sending to print anyway, and I think most professionals would agree with me. You need a decent desktop LCD or CRT monitor to be sure, and lines or no lines you're going to come unstuck if you rely on a laptop screen to proof your work.

 

[Spectrum]

That has yet to be proven. KingstonTown is the only person that I am aware of that has seen the lines and then seen good displays at an Apple store (in Munich, Germany). But then Wombert says he has been there, and the displays have the lines.

I am leaning to the idea that, at least currently, ALL displays have lines. And although I would love it to be a driver/firmware issue, I lean toward the problem being caused by the underlying physical design of the display.

... but it appears that not everyone is having this issue...