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Horizontal Lines in New Powerbooks

londonweb said:
and I think most professionals would agree with me. You need a decent desktop LCD or CRT monitor to be sure, and lines or no lines you're going to come unstuck if you rely on a laptop screen to proof your work.
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i agree whole heartedly and will be using a dual display format once i get my powerbook this week...but it's just a concern when i go mobile and upload proofs for clients to see...i dont know...it just doesnt sit well with me.
 
mizzi said:
i agree whole heartedly and will be using a dual display format once i get my powerbook this week...but it's just a concern when i go mobile and upload proofs for clients to see...i dont know...it just doesnt sit well with me.
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Do you mean to show clients proofs in person on your pb screen? I don't think I would have a problem doing that- perhaps some screens have this thing worse than others, but to my eyes it is barely detectable unless you have large areas of flat pastel colour in your work- it seems most evident in paler shades and greys. I agree that it's not ideal though...
 
Spectrum said:
That has yet to be proven. KingstonTown is the only person that I am aware of that has seen the lines and then seen good displays at an Apple store (in Munich, Germany). But then Wombert says he has been there, and the displays have the lines.

I am leaning to the idea that, at least currently, ALL displays have lines. And although I would love it to be a driver/firmware issue, I lean toward the problem being caused by the underlying physical design of the display.
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I too think all units have the problem. It's very likely that a lot of people who are saying "I don't see them" either have units who are "not as bad" or they just ignore them because they just spent 2000€ on a (hopefully) otherwise beautiful laptop. I would, too if I wasn't aware of the line issue beforehand.
 
Wombert said:
I too think all units have the problem. It's very likely that a lot of people who are saying "I don't see them" either have units who are "not as bad" or they just ignore them because they just spent 2000€ on a (hopefully) otherwise beautiful laptop. I would, too if I wasn't aware of the line issue beforehand.
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I beg to differ here.... I ordered my 15" BTO PB a couple days after the announcement of the new revisions and it arrived in perfectly fine condition, no problems with horizontal lines or anything else. After readng about the problems others were having, of course I scrutinized my new machine very carefully. Still no signs of horizontal lines. I think there are a few other people who also have not had any issues with their PBs.....

FWIW mine came from Shanghai and I chose the 7200 rpm version and had 2 GB RAM installed.

Let me reiterate: there are NO problems with my machine as far as horizontal lines! I'd know it if there were, as I am very picky....

Why I managed to be so lucky I can't tell you and I am sorry that so many people have been experiencing serious problems with their 15" PBs.

OTB
 
Having said all this - I am starting to notice more and more moving moire interference effects on certain shades of colours or on high detail patterns (e.g the message panes used in MacRumors). I am now finding this to be a more distracting/nauseating effect than that of the horizontal lines. Definitely a feeling like the display refresh rate is not correct. Whether or not a fix of this would fix the horizontal lines or not I don't know.

I just made up a test sheet of blues and some show moving moire, others wider horizontal banding with a periodicity of about 5pixels, but I realised that the effects for different shades varies depending on the coloursyn profile you select...

Interestingly, the same image opened in Preview shows artifacts in diffeent shades. What the hell is going on?

Wombert said:
I too think all units have the problem. It's very likely that a lot of people who are saying "I don't see them" either have units who are "not as bad" or they just ignore them because they just spent 2000€ on a (hopefully) otherwise beautiful laptop. I would, too if I wasn't aware of the line issue beforehand.
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I ordered the exact same thing a day after the announcement. Came from Shanghai. Do you want to swap? ;-)

Seriously: Do you not see the interference effects on the Crankycat image either? more pronounced in the top left of the screen?

http://crankycat.com/pb15_problems.png

or in the left-hand pane of Macrumors messages?

(actually, I've just realised that this MacRumours problem seems to be specific to my unique coloursyn profile...maybe I'll go back to ColorLCD...)

---

Edit: Sorry to be a pain, but I would like as much info as possible for Apple to solve this...

so - Final question: On the CrankyCat images - can you see the intended scanlines on the right hand images? Are they always there, sometimes there, or never there - depending on where you move the Safari window?

On the Brink said:
I beg to differ here.... I ordered my 15" BTO PB a couple days after the announcement of the new revisions and it arrived in perfectly fine condition, no problems with horizontal lines or anything else. After readng about the problems others were having, of course I scrutinized my new machine very carefully. Still no signs of horizontal lines. I think there are a few other people who also have not had any issues with their PBs.....

FWIW mine came from Shanghai and I chose the 7200 rpm version and had 2 GB RAM installed.

Let me reiterate: there are NO problems with my machine as far as horizontal lines! I'd know it if there were, as I am very picky....

Why I managed to be so lucky I can't tell you and I am sorry that so many people have been experiencing serious problems with their 15" PBs.

OTB
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On the PB right now and I again took a look at the Crankycat images. While I could see the problems that are under discussion, looking with both my iMac and my PB, neither machine displayed any other issues and no interference effects. My 15" PB is FINE, with NO problems!

Sorry, as I know this must be frustrating to you guys who definitely do have problems with your PBs and I feel for you....

OTB
 
tribe3 said:
Visual, here is a pic of my screen. It looks pretty good to me...
If you want I can take a pic in the same way you did it and we can compare.
Cheers
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do you notice a darker line in the upper tool bar?
 
londonweb said:
Do you mean to show clients proofs in person on your pb screen? I don't think I would have a problem doing that- perhaps some screens have this thing worse than others, but to my eyes it is barely detectable unless you have large areas of flat pastel colour in your work- it seems most evident in paler shades and greys. I agree that it's not ideal though...
Click to expand...

a lot of bands/models i shoot wish to have an idea as to how the shoot went and they can pick and choose the ones they want me to work with in photo shop...i'm still uneasy about this whole thing. damn...
 
In the cranky cat image I see lines in the right images, but they are always there, but left images look smooth and clear.
I am a 17"Pb owner (rev C)
 
dollystereo said:
In the cranky cat image I see lines in the right images, but they are always there, but left images look smooth and clear.
I am a 17"Pb owner (rev C)
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Only the new (October 2005 with Duallayer Superdrive) 15" models have the problem
 
OK, so I just hopped into MacNN for a few moments and discovered that, hey, at the left side of the screen (light grey area outside the frame of the thread tools section and the frame of the actual thread) I can see very distinct lines..... That's with the PB. With the 20" iMac those lines are very, very faintly visible. I'm wondering if this is simply because of the difference in resolution and brightness between the two computers?

OTB
 
mizzi said:
i definitely need the mobility of a powerbook and 17" is just too big to be practical in my intended use...and 12" is just too small. this would have been ideal...now i'm quite nervous. can anyone pat me on the head and tell me everything will be alright? hah
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I'm in the exact same boat as you. I am a developer who does a lot of work outside my normal office away from a monitor. The 12" at its small resolution is just too small to do much development work on. The 17" is too big to carry around. 15" was just right for me.

Unfortunately mine has the line issues and is going back. Now I'm stuck between just exchanging for an iMac/iBook combo, or just using the money for a kick ass PC setup...and worry about switching in 6-12 months.

Such a sad case. I've been wanting to switch for over a year, and serious about it for the last 8 months, and when I finally do, I get this result. Nice work Apple.
 
The MacNN page has alternating horizontal lines that are 2+2 pixels in height running across it. It is an intended design for that part of the web-page. Zoom in using universal access (option apple + or -) and turn off smoothing (option apple \), and you will see them.

Now, here is a test. When I move the MacNN safari window down one pixel height at a time, the lines change in appearance/intensity - it is not a coming and going as with the earlier scan line test because these wider lines don't coincide with the brighter/darker LCD lines, but they do change in appearance nonetheless.

On the Brink said:
OK, so I just hopped into MacNN for a few moments and discovered that, hey, at the left side of the screen (light grey area outside the frame of the thread tools section and the frame of the actual thread) I can see very distinct lines..... That's with the PB. With the 20" iMac those lines are very, very faintly visible. I'm wondering if this is simply because of the difference in resolution and brightness between the two computers?

OTB
Click to expand...
 
OTB, sorry to bother you again, but I don't quite follow your post:

On the Brink said:
On the PB right now and I again took a look at the Crankycat images. While I could see the problems that are under discussion, looking with both my iMac and my PB, neither machine displayed any other issues and no interference effects. My 15" PB is FINE, with NO problems!
OTB
Click to expand...

When you say you can "see the problems that are under discussion" - what do you mean? You see the scan lines? Or that you just understand what they must look like?

It's just you say:"neither machine displayed any OTHER issues...". suggesting that they do display the scanlines.

Sorry, If I'm being pedantic - I'm confused, and it's late...I just would like a solution. Apple is giving us all the run around.
 
VisualForces said:
Is that a screenshot or an actual picture?

I hope it's a picture...cause that would make me feel a LOT better about this! :)
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@ VisualForces: when you could see the screenshot of tribe3 correct, where you looking at it with your
powerbook? How can you see his correctly then? It should be a display problem :confused:
 
Well i've got a new Powerbook and a refurb last revision powerbook (waiting to be returned) side by side and to me this new screen is better. While I do see tiny lines while looking VERY closely, normal working with the screen shows a much brighter and clearer screen. The old one looks dull and flat in comparison. I have purposely not mentioned this issue to my girlfriend to see if she has any problems with the lines but she also has been very happy with how bright and rich the creen looks. Hope everybody gets theirs sorted. Really think Apple should issue some sort of statement to clear up the issue.
 
I'm not sure what the ESPN example is supposed to show unless I've missed something, that image has lines on it already as a design choice by ESPN. And if you're scrolling it on pretty much any LCD the lines will disappear due to the so called ghosting effect LCD's have, it has nothing to do with this powerbook issue but is an issue with LCD technology that I can see on my ibook, my 24" and 20" dell screens.
But I live in Sydney australia and have noticed the scan line issue in apple stores here even before I read about it, it was really obvious. I'm not a graphics designer, just a guy who's very fussy with displays. Call me a visualophile ;)
Speaking of which anyone noticed the terrible red error in the 23" cinemahd. But the dell 24" is also pretty flawed, with very poor colour reproduction for darker colours. 30" looks the best but is way too big.
Anyway, for all you poor unforunate 15" powerbook owneres, considered exchanging them for a 17" powerbook? About the only issue with those I think is the low battery life. Sure it's a little big, but can still be carried around.
 
Morn said:
I'm not sure what the ESPN example is supposed to show unless I've missed something, that image has lines on it already as a design choice by ESPN. And if you're scrolling it on pretty much any LCD the lines will disappear due to the so called ghosting effect LCD's have, it has nothing to do with this powerbook issue but is an issue with LCD technology that I can see on my ibook, my 24" and 20" dell screens.
But I live in Sydney australia and have noticed the scan line issue in apple stores here even before I read about it, it was really obvious. I'm not a graphics designer, just a guy who's very fussy with displays. Call me a visualophile ;)
Speaking of which anyone noticed the terrible red error in the 23" cinemahd. But the dell 24" is also pretty flawed, with very poor colour reproduction for darker colours. 30" looks the best but is way too big.
Anyway, for all you poor unforunate 15" powerbook owneres, considered exchanging them for a 17" powerbook? About the only issue with those I think is the low battery life. Sure it's a little big, but can still be carried around.
Click to expand...

Would you mind reading http://15inpbscreen.appleplace.com/espn.html please? It's described there. Let me know if I can do anything to clarify the explanation provided there.
 
I was there last saturday and the one that I saw didn't have the problem! Or at least it was so weak (much weaker than on my 15" PB) that I didn't notice the lines.

Wombert said:
I was in the Gravis store in Munich, Germany several times and the 15" PB there has the lines. Trust me. I know what they look like :)
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On a normal LCD, you can find that those lines on the ESPN logo won't be visible if you scroll, it's an artifact LCD's have that is known as ghosting or motion blur. On the powerbook apparently they aren't visible even if you aren't scrolling.
 
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