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Arcus said:
So go buy a dell.

I really don't understand this attitude by some Mac users at all. I see this prevalent on these boards and the Apple official discussion boards, and if this does trickle all the way up into the Apple technical culture, then it may explain some of the QC problems people have experienced in the past or present.

Apple's products are NOT that great that they can afford to continue to ship laptops, desktops, and other peripherals with major quality issues, be they bad or cracked screens, dents, scratches, and other visual blemishes right out of the box, or other such problems. OS X is great, but there are lots of non-Windows alternatives that are just as viable for Windows users to switch to that are easy to use and just as virus/spyware free as OS X (Ubuntu and Mepis spring to mind readily). The hardware is great, provided you can get one defect-free.

I don't think that Apple responds to issues like these screens any slower than, say, Dell or HP or Averatec would--but would any of those three companies allow such noticable problems out the door?
 
They probably would, and people would not care so much because there are so many alternatives in pc world. Might you you see many companies that go through revisions like apple goes through itunes versions. :p I think apple is too slow to fix stuff.
 
Revision D PB video ram?

So I'm now at the point where I think I'm just going to buy a revision D book. I now sort of wish I had bought it in September because I could have bumped up the VRAM to 128mb as a BTO option, but now it looks like I can only get a 64mb model.

Does anyone know if it's possible to upgrade the vram on the unit?

(and yes, I have a 30" monitor I can use here at the office, so if I'm going to use that I'll need the 128mb).
 
What's so sad is that this is most likely the last revision of these powerbooks - the revision which usually is the best with the least problems. I like to buy the last revision for that reason: it's stable, reliable and most of the quirks have been worked out and fixed. With this one, however, it seems there have an unusual number of problems. In any case, I would never ever buy another rev A of any powerbook. There WILL be problems and it WILL take time to resolve: MY time. It's simply not worth it.

I agree that Apple cannot afford to ignore this problem. On the other hand, it seems that we are hostage since most of us just want to be able to use OSX instead of windows and this is our only alternative. I wonder what will be needed for people to feel that having a great OS is just not worth the hassle of dealing with apple hardware. I feel the oppositive about windows computers. Having said that, I've never had a complete failure of hardware, but I've had a fair share of 'issues': display, hinges, heat, audio, you name it.
 
Hey, did anyone have trouble with the Rev A mac mini's?;) Rev A doesn't automatically mean shoddy.
 
Morn said:
Hey, did anyone have trouble with the Rev A mac mini's?;) Rev A doesn't automatically mean shoddy.


You're right! The minis seemed to have escaped this problem BUT, look at the revA imac G5s, the Powerbook G3 wallstreet rev A, titanium powerbook rev A, alumium powerbook rev A - all of them had quite serious problems in the beginning, some of which could be fixed but some which were inherent in their design (hinges, for example, on both the G3s and the titanium - it beats me how Apple can have such problems with hinges when many other companies don't. ). Anyway, mini is an exception - let's hope the intel powerbook rev A is too.
 
Well there are simple things you can do, read this forum any issues will show up here ;) And get applecare for any long term issues.
 
Morn said:
Well there are simple things you can do, read this forum any issues will show up here ;) And get applecare for any long term issues.

Applecare is not available for residents of the state of florida because it's considered an "insurance policy" and Apple doesn't want to go through the hassle of dealing with the state insurance agency.
 
I looked at the ones at my local Apple store last night and can only see these 'lines' when my face is pressed against the screen. I don't discount that this problem exists in more exagerrated forms, but I really don't mind the miniscule lines I saw in the ones on display.

For those who have a more severe case of this, I wish you all the best in getting things resolved. :)
 
Hi Mizzi, yes I'm afraid the lines pervade everything that is displayed. However, I would agree that the problem of the lines is very subjective. If you don't see or notice them, then the laptop is great. If you notice them but don't care, then the laptop is still great. But if they disrupt your ability to view/edit pictures, then this seems like a big problem to me.

I am sure many many many people have not noticed and even if they did wouldn't care - it depends on your expectation, on what you are going to use the computer for, and how sensitive you are to the issue.

One thing I would say is this though: this laptop screen in no way compares to the quality of the screen on my iMac G4 17" (identical resolution). Side-by-side in a brightly lit work environment, the PB is not as bright, not as crisp, and has poor colour saturation.

Viewed stand-alone under incandescent lighting, the PB15 fares much better.

OK, one is a desktop, one is a laptop, and one would probably expect these differences. I just want to compare my perception of the PB15 screen to something else that is all.


...finally. I realise that my posted pic is very close up. However, you do not need to be this close to see the problem. The image is that close-up to demonstrate that the cause is due to alternate pixel lines being a shade (about 5%) brighter. Not as was suggested by an AppleGenius quoted in a different forum due to "the way the eye perceives the spaces between alternate pixel lines at such high resolution" (paraphrase) - from my shots, the dark outline of each pixel appears uniform, it is just that half of them are brighter (darker?) than they should be.

For now it is not clear if this is:

- because of the design of the LCD: Is something physical (electronics?) occluding half the pixels?. Thus making them appear darker because they transmit less light (?).

- due to the inherent response of the LCD to an electric current on alternate rows: making alternate rows brighter because not enough crystal is switching and thus more light than expected is being transmitted (?).

- something else: refresh rate (?). I have no idea on this one, but I will say that the interference effects people (including me) see in certain colours points this way. Although this may be an additional, separate issue.

Best thing: just check them out in the store, and then at home for a few days. If it doesn't bother you - great! You have a kick-arse laptop.

If it does, tell Apple. They need the feedback. Then you can decide whether to keep it or not.

For now, I am keeping mine, because it still does a lot of what I need it to do.

Good luck.

---

mizzi said:
question...

do you see the lines when you have an image open over your desk top? like...if you were to open safari and go to a website with an image, do yuo see the same lines or is it strictly a desktop issue...?

may sound like a silly question but i'm curious.
 
Hi Morn. What is your point?

Do you mean that by posting the close-up image, I am muddying the water? If so, I do not think so. IMO close-ups are the best way to demonstrate the problem via a posted digicamera shot. At greater distances, I don't think most cameras can resolve the lines the way that your eyes can.

Or do you mean that by posting close-ups like this is not a fair test? If so, I will add that (to me) the lines are visible to the naked eye at distances far greater then the close-up digicamera alludes to - but you need to get up-close to show them successfully on a digicamera shot (IMO ;-)

Re: Linux - I know that someone was trying this, but couldn't get Linux to load properly - but I think still did see the lines on early boot screens or something - there are posts on this in the Apple discussion threads. In any case, if it is a refresh rate prob, it points to something in the firmware - not drivers, if I understand it correctly (I am NO programmer).
--
Morn said:
>>>I;m not convinced that Melkor's images are detailed enough to see the scan lines. I think on digi photos of my screeen at that resolution/distance, It would be hard to pick them out.

>>>To demonstrate that a screen doesn't have lines to those of us browsing the forums, we need to see images where rows of pixels are visible - like this one from my screen - note that my desktop has a photo on it - not a default blue image.

Umm, stop it with these mega close up pictures it's really hard to tell the scan line issue apart from the normal for LCD screen door effect.
Good way to test for refresh rate error would be to load linux onto the computer.
 
Spectrum said:
Re: Linux - I know that someone was trying this, but couldn't get Linux to load properly - but I think still did see the lines on early boot screens or something - there are posts on this in the Apple discussion threads. In any case, if it is a refresh rate prob, it points to something in the firmware - not drivers, if I understand it correctly (I am NO programmer).
--

That was me, Spectrum. I tried an Ubuntu 5.10 for PowerPC install disk and the lines were present on the installer on my Powerbook (the install bombed due to me not knowing which driver to use for the DL Superdrive; it didn't detect on its own. First time I saw an Ubuntu install hang for that, but this was also my first time installing on PowerPC). Then again, they were also present on the Apple Hardware test screen.
 
What I mean is that so close up, it's hard to see what the problem is, you don't see whatever the LCD is supposed to be showing well, and all the black lines inbetween pixels just make it harder ot make out where the black lines that are the problem are.
Ohh and a digital camera should be able to see every pixel on a screen rather easily, I took a large picture of my 24" screen (needed to be a large picture to fit the whole screen in :p ) and was able to zoom into it to see a single dead pixel.
 
Imminent Arrival

17 Nov 2005 16:19 Northampton Hub Consignment Received At Transit Point
16 Nov 2005 19:03 Arnhem Hub Consignment Received At Transit Point
14 Nov 2005 21:59 Shanghai Shipped From Originating Depot
14 Nov 2005 14:23 Shanghai Consignment Received At Transit Point

Northampton to Bournemouth is not so far, hopefully it will be here tomorrow, next day at the latest I would imagine. Part of me was hoping it may be delayed as a fix was happening but I guess not. Will let you all know if mine has the problem too, it seems it almost certainly will :(

Fingers Crossed... :eek:
 
Morn said:
What I mean is that so close up, it's hard to see what the problem is, you don't see whatever the LCD is supposed to be showing well, and all the black lines inbetween pixels just make it harder ot make out where the black lines that are the problem are.

Ok Morn, I see that you think I am muddying the water. But I still disagree. Are you saying that you cannt see the lines of either ot these two pictures?

https://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34497&d=1131545413

https://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34499&d=1131545593

Morn said:
Ohh and a digital camera should be able to see every pixel on a screen rather easily, I took a large picture of my 24" screen (needed to be a large picture to fit the whole screen in :p ) and was able to zoom into it to see a single dead pixel.

I disagree. 1440x960=1.4Mpixels. If you want to be able to resolve the lines you need at least that resolution, and at that resolution you would also resolve the black lines to the same degree (they are approx the same width). So actually the required resolution is 2881x1921=5.5Mpixels at a minimum.

This is aside from problems with moire, camera shake, and refresh rate of the screen.

A dead pixel is effectively a black area that is 9 times larger than any individual bright pixel.

Indeed, you can see what looks like a dead pixel on my second shot (it is actually a piece of dust :) ).
 
kensuf said:
So I'm now at the point where I think I'm just going to buy a revision D book. I now sort of wish I had bought it in September because I could have bumped up the VRAM to 128mb as a BTO option, but now it looks like I can only get a 64mb model.

Does anyone know if it's possible to upgrade the vram on the unit?

(and yes, I have a 30" monitor I can use here at the office, so if I'm going to use that I'll need the 128mb).

not possible. It's BTO only.
 
Spectrum said:
Ok Morn, I see that you think I am muddying the water. But I still disagree. Are you saying that you cannt see the lines of either ot these two pictures?

https://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34497&d=1131545413

https://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34499&d=1131545593

Wow, in those pics the lines look *really* bad. In some other pics in this thread, they're not even visible. I guess the problem really varies.

I'm not sure why people are so skeptical that apple will fix this. I'm sure they don't want more bad press after the nano-scratching fiasco. And apple customer service is actually pretty good on the whole.

Also, I think everyone is getting waaaay too excited about intel coming out in january. IMO, the chances of that are slim to none. Jobs said "by next summer." When was the last time apple delivered anything 6 months before their own self-imposed deadline?
 
Hmmmmm.

Picked up a PB the day that they were announced, ... never noticed any issues with the screen, even looking at stuff like ESPN or crankycat.

Sent it in to Apple Tuesday for a keyboard replacement, ... got it back today, and now I see some lines thru the gray toolbar at the top (as in the example below), which I *DEFINATELY* did not have before I sent it.

I had the normal blue wallpaper set when I sent it in, ... they sent it back with a gray one, and there was about a 1/4 "band" across the top of the screen (the top of which started in the gray toolbar).

https://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34499&d=1131545593

What are the chances that they did some firmware upgrade on something that may not have been on the orig. machine I bought the day the upgrades were announced?
 
aristobrat said:
Hmmmmm.

https://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34499&d=1131545593

What are the chances that they did some firmware upgrade on something that may not have been on the orig. machine I bought the day the upgrades were announced?

Depends...what version of Tiger shipped with your PB? I know 10.4.2 and 10.4.3 both had some driver updates for the video card.

I do know that there is a "3d" effect on the title bar, where one half is darker than the other, but I thought that was global for Tiger in general, not something introduced later.
 
Maybe it is the 3d effect that I've never noticed continuing down below the title bar before because I've never used a blah-gray wallpaper before.

I bought two PBs that day (one for me, one for my other half), so I'll check that one and see if I see the same thing.
 
wildcard said:
I really don't understand this attitude by some Mac users at all. I see this prevalent on these boards and the Apple official discussion boards, and if this does trickle all the way up into the Apple technical culture, then it may explain some of the QC problems people have experienced in the past or present.

Don't pay too much attention to Mac fanatics. They seem to take every little criticisms, even entirely valid ones, quite personally. To them, Apple can do no wrong.
 
Morn said:
Hey, did anyone have trouble with the Rev A mac mini's?;) Rev A doesn't automatically mean shoddy.

Strictly speaking these Rev-E PBs really are Rev-A machines.

New Intrepid2 chipset, new memory bus, new display.

If they can actually f*** up such a minor redesign it really casts great doubts about their enginnering.
 
QCassidy352 said:
Also, I think everyone is getting waaaay too excited about intel coming out in january. IMO, the chances of that are slim to none. Jobs said "by next summer." When was the last time apple delivered anything 6 months before their own self-imposed deadline?

It doesn't matter, even if come Feb '06 and we get 7448 based PBs I will still jump for it. Contrast it with my palm toaster with a flickering screen with lines all over it.

NOT HAPPY.

Seriously NOT HAPPY.

And the bigger irony? I can be happier with a Dell.
 
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