HTML5 Continuing to Gain Ground With Yahoo! Mail for iPad, Vimeo Embedding

[lowbatteries]

2) What do people think HTML5 gives them in a Webmail client?

The ability to program an offline email client, perhaps? Like the article says? Also, drag-n-drop attachment handling (gmail does this), smart file uploading, and lots of little behind the scenes stuff that only developers can truly appreciate.

People don't realise:

- What HTML5 is
- What a website using HTML5 actually means to them
- What HTML5 can do
- What HTML5 can't do
- What Flash can do that HTML5 can't

Yeah, but that's the case with buzzwords. Kind of have to live with it.

You do realise it wont be finalised until about 2020, don't you?

In order for a draft to be "finalized", it has to be in most major browsers and in very extensive use on the web. So, if everyone waits until its finalized to use it, it will never be finalized, by definition.

Try browsing car manufacturer sites. Here is one example - an interactive BMW site.

That entire site could be produced exactly as it is in HTML5. Every single little crappy animation (only in modern browsers though).

Uh ? Google was first onboard to push HTML5 with Youtube. Apple is actually late in the HTML5 game.

How do you figure? The first browser with support for the video tag was Safari. If YouTube served videos in HTML5 before that, what was the point?

 

[lilo777]

That entire site could be produced exactly as it is in HTML5. Every single little crappy animation (only in modern browsers though).

Missing the point here. I linked this site as an example of Flash used for something else than video in response to someone asking if Flash is really used just for video.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

that's exactly my point. those sites can easily be done without flash and they would look much better.

Not being flash doesn't make something look better.

Car manufacturers sites are essentially just ads. Same is true for some other manufacturers sites.

All business sites (B2B or B2C) are essentially advertisements for goods and/or services.

Really short of video and maybe some artists sites there is no use for Flash aside of ads.

Millions of people play flash games every day. I don't, but millions do.

That is the reason why Steve Jobs can be so stubborn about destroying Flash. If Flash was really necessary he could never afford to be so aggressive.

Wouldn't you rather decide for yourself what is necessary?

 

[WilliamLondon]

People don't realise:

- What HTML5 is
- What a website using HTML5 actually means to them
- What HTML5 can do
- What HTML5 can't do
- What Flash can do that HTML5 can't

I'd add one item to your list:

- How bad proprietary standards are for them and why everyone benefits from open standards

 

[KnightWRX]

Google ("Free and open!") pushing Flash (er...proprietary) as a selling point for Android devices in their battle against Apple and the iPhone doesn't do the HTML5 effort any favors.

Google pushed HTML5 to the forefront first with Youtube. Google accepting Flash on Android, while also using a much more recent Webkit build that has better HTML5 support than iOS is not doing anyone any favors.

Google understands that NOW is still Flash's time. They also understand that HTML5 will be big later. They support both and let the user decide while pushing for HTML5 in many of their online applications.

So please, spare me the Google is pushing Flash crap.

 

[Sleazy E]

this is good news

 

[KnightWRX]

How do you figure? The first browser with support for the video tag was Safari. If YouTube served videos in HTML5 before that, what was the point?

BZZZT. Opera was first to have a browser out of Beta with the video tag. Firefox was second.

And supporting the video tag is not pushing HTML5 adoption. Apple are pushing with their moves with iOS, Google is by implementing features of HTML5 into their apps, Youtube being the first and biggest push. Apple was late in the pushing game.

 

[Master Chief]

No one is doing more to accelerate HTML5 development than Apple is by closing the door on Flash.

No man. What Apple does, over the backs of its consumers, isn't helping anyone.

If only Google would get on board...

Huh? You do know that Ian Hickson, being the HTML5 editor, works for Google Inc. right? Without people like Hixie... we would still be sitting in the dark.

But in the end... this story shouldn't be about Flash. Not at all.

 

[WilliamLondon]

So please, spare me the Google is pushing Flash crap.

Sorry, but I'm with LagunaSol on this one - Google is embedding Flash in Chrome (and they stood there on stage with Adobe in a "we love Flash" love-in) all in an attempt to stick it to their arch nemesis, Apple.

That's not to say they have closed the door on HTML5 but "you can't be a pacifist and *fight* for peace at the same time."

 

[xraytech]

anyone still trying to argue for flash??

Only those who want to play FaceBook games. XD

 

[KnightWRX]

Sorry, but I'm with LagunaSol on this one - Google is embedding Flash in Chrome (and they stood there on stage with Adobe in a "we love Flash" love-in) all in an attempt to stick it to their arch nemesis, Apple.

That's not to say they have closed the door on HTML5 but "you can't be a pacifist and *fight* for peace at the same time."

Why do you believe Flash has to lose for HTML5 to win ? Kinda reminds me of someone else that once said "Microsoft doesn't have to lose for Apple to win".

Again, Google are doing as much if not more than Apple to push HTML5 into the mainstream. The fact that they are not doing it by sacrificing Flash is besides the point. If HTML5 is truly better, it will win out. In the end, the consumers win by having the choice of using the right tool for the right job.

EDIT : Like pointed out earlier :

http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/

Editors:
Ian Hickson, Google, Inc.

So both you and LagunaSol need to apologize here. Google is in fact working hard on HTML5. Much harder than Apple is.

 

[macUser2007]

Seriously, this is just pathetic.

Is it going to be front-page news every time another scrap from the web table falls to the floor, where iOS users live?

Without Flash support, iPad and iPhone users are second class citizens in the web world.

Now that Android is rapidly overtaking iOS, there will be less and less reason to do custom sites to cater to Steve Jobs' whims and greed.

 

[3583582]

Seriously, this is just pathetic.

Is it going to be front-page news every time another scrap from the web table falls to the floor, where iOS users live?

Without Flash support, iPad and iPhone users are second class citizens in the web world.

Now that Android is rapidly overtaking iOS, there will be less and less reason to do custom sites to cater to Steve Jobs' whims and greed.

You do of course also understand that it is a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of Android users that have access to Flash?

 

[KnightWRX]

You do of course also understand that it is a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of Android users that have access to Flash?

4.5% actually, as of August 3rd :

But wait, Froyo updates started for many higher end phone models after that date, so the numbers are probably much higher now. Samsung is also shipping Froyo in September for the Galaxy S.

It's coming. To try to downplay it at this point is ludicrous at best.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

Again, Google are doing as much if not more than Apple to push HTML5 into the mainstream. The fact that they are not doing it by sacrificing Flash is besides the point. If HTML5 is truly better, it will win out. In the end, the consumers win by having the choice of using the right tool for the right job.

I think Flash will just evolve into something else. And really, it should. When the functions it accomplishes in the browser are duplicated by something else, Adobe needs to evolve into something else that HTML can't handle yet.

After Adobe got their hand bit (hard) by Apple, it looks like they finally wised up and moved into the next frontier:

Flash Player 3D future scheduled for Max 2010 scheduled on October 27 at 11:00AM in room 503. Sebastian Marketsmueller (Flash Player engineer) will deep dive into the next generation 3D API coming in a future version of the Flash Player.

Now you may wonder, what does this means, what kind of 3D are we talking about ?

What kind of API ? True textured z-buffered triangles ? GPU acceleration ? Even better ? What I can say is forget what you have seen before, it is going to be big

When this will be available ?

We will share plans with you at Max during this session, I tell you, some serious stuff is coming for 3D developers.

If you are also curious about the inner details of the Flash Player renderer, Lee Thomason (Flash Player architect) will delve into the details of the Flash Player renderer, and show how to optimize the rendering performance of your applications. Lee will cover mechanisms like the display list, text rendering, shaders, GPU hardware acceleration, and exclusive features coming in a future version of Flash Player (hehe).

It looks like Adobe is waking up - because the standard web 3d is pretty crappy, which is why the superb Unity plugin exists in the first place. So they will have to deal with some real, established competition if they want to stay alive. I think that's a good place for them to be. They need to be scared into doing a good job.

If this is what flash programmers want it to be - bringing the Flash community into the 3d world - it could be freaking huge for game development.

Emphasis on could. We'll see if Adobe really has been being lazy or not right before Halloween.

 

[KnightWRX]

It looks like Adobe is waking up - because the standard web 3d is pretty crappy, which is why the Unity plugin exists int he first place. So they will have to deal with some real, established competition if they want to stay alive. I think that's a good place for them to be. They need to be scared into doing a good job.

If this is what flash programmers want it to be - bringing the Flash community into the 3d world - it could be freaking huge for game development.

Emphasis on could. We'll see if Adobe really has been being lazy or not right before Halloween.

Pssst... WebGL :

http://www.khronos.org/webgl/



So if they want this to be truly innovative, it can't just be a 3D graphics API. WebGL is already here, will use the HTML5 Canvas and provide an OpenGL ES 2.0 compatible API (which will help in porting efforts).

 

[WilliamLondon]

So both you and LagunaSol need to apologize here.

Well, I can't speak for LagunaSol, but this comment is either laughable or borderline offensive.

To keep this on topic and not let it deteriorate into a silly spit/spat conversation, I support any company's effort which promotes open standards over proprietary standards. We all win with open standards.

 

[macUser2007]

You do of course also understand that it is a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of Android users that have access to Flash?

Yes, I do. But it's growing by the minute.

Because I chose the Samsung Galaxy S, I still use Flash Lite on it, which works for video, but not for using sites built entirely in Flash. However, the Froyo update comes in less than a month, and then I'll have full Flash.

But, you do of course understand than iOS is NOT getting Flash. Not even just for video.

So, iOS users will be forever relegated to second class status on the web, either seeing blue Lego icons, or "special," dumbed-down versions of sites.

That's why I moved on to Android, and I can't be happier

 

[LagunaSol]

Google understands that NOW is still Flash's time. They also understand that HTML5 will be big later. They support both and let the user decide while pushing for HTML5 in many of their online applications.

It will always be Flash's time unless people start getting pushed/pulled away from it. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. If all devices play Flash, developers are going to keep using Flash, and Flash will remain dominant.

Flash is the IE6 of our day. It's time to move on. Apple is making that push by saying they don't want Adobe's proprietary Web on their mobile devices. Google is saying "Look at our devices, you can enjoy Adobe's proprietary Web here, unlike on devices from that other guy!"

So who is the greater supporter for open Web standards in this case?

So please, spare me the Google is pushing Flash crap.

The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Žalgiris]

Then why don't you have an iPad? (according to your signature).

When it's officially in my village i'm buying.

 

[smetvid]

As a rich media developer I can tell you Flash is used for a lot more then just ads and video. Just because one person spends most of their web browsing all day on forums and Facebook doesn't mean everybody is like that. Sure most days at work I hardly ever see Flash sites but then again I hardly ever watch TV anymore either. Just because I don't watch TV doesn't mean there shouldn't be TV ads anymore. A lot of our clients request Flash because they like what it does for them in terms of sales. Some may say that is a bunch of BS but then again the same argument can be made of TV ads which most people ignore.

I embrace HTML5 and hope it does well but all I have to say is that I need the industry to make up it's mind and fast. Large companies like Vimeo and Yahoo can afford to which to HTML because they have the resources to do so. With the economy the way it is right now our clients grump about paying Flash development prices right now. If we moved to HTML5 we would have to charge our clients double. Only Mac users feel as though the entire world supports HTML5 when in fact only a tiny fraction do at this point. Most of our clients and most of the business world is on IE 6, IE 7 or IE 8. This means that HTML5 is useless to us right now. We would love to develop HTML5 and I keep trying to push it at work but nobody smaller then Vimeo wants to invest in it right now.

The problem is that that giant slice of older IE users cannot use HTML5 at all. That means that we would have to develop from the ground up a rich HTML5 site/web application as well as a Flash site/web application. No client I have seen yet wants to spend that kind of money when they already know for a fact that any computer outside of the Iphone can view Flash material.

So basically as a company we have three choices.
1. Develop Flash only and market to 90% of the people.
2. Develop for HTML5 and market to the other 10% of the people.
3. Develop both and go broke in the process.

I would love to do 2 or 3 but it just doesn't make sense right now. If the world is going to change to HTML5 then fine I don't really care. I am an artist I don't really care what tools I use for the job. So while some of you praise Apple for their position with Flash it has left some of us in a tough position. In a economy where some of us are already doing more work for what we are getting paid we may now be forced to do even more. On top of that we may now also have to support the OGG video format which means double the cost of media conversion for our clients.

Now if IE 9, Firefox and the entire IT world can get their act together and universally support HTML5 and H264 then I think I can convince a lot more clients to switch.

 

[Žalgiris]

So while some of you praise Apple for their position with Flash it has left some of us in a tough position. In a economy where some of us are already doing more work for what we are getting paid we may now be forced to do even more. On top of that we may now also have to support the OGG video format which means double the cost of media conversion for our clients.

Adapt or die. Been like this since since forever.

 

[RalfTheDog]

I must say, I am tempted to design a site that provides useful information as long as you do not have Flash installed. If you have Flash, it gives you a message telling you, "This site is not Flash compatible. Please disable Flash before viewing this site."

 

[PeterQVenkman]

Pssst... WebGL :

http://www.khronos.org/webgl/



So if they want this to be truly innovative, it can't just be a 3D graphics API. WebGL is already here, will use the HTML5 Canvas and provide an OpenGL ES 2.0 compatible API (which will help in porting efforts).

These WebGL demos: http://www.khronos.org/webgl/wiki/Demo_Repository do not run in my version of Safari (5.0.1) or Firefox (3.6.8)

I get this error: "This demo requires a WebGL-enabled browser."

I wouldn't call that "already here" - it's pretty rudimentary graphics without official browser support. And the install needed to enable web gl on safari is nasty:

Remember, Safari only supports WebGL on Macs running Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6); if you’re on Leopard (10.5), Windows or Linux then you’ll have to use Firefox or Chromium. (If you’re on an older version of OS/X, I don’t know of any browser you can use :-()

If you are on Snow Leopard, to get it running, you need to:

Make sure you have at least version 4 of Safari.
Download and install the WebKit nightly build.
Start up a Terminal, and in it run this command:
defaults write com.apple.Safari WebKitWebGLEnabled -bool YES
Run the freshly-installed WebKit application.

Next, click here to try out some WebGL pages.

And it looks like we're at the same spot - there are plugins, like Unity, which do 3d on the web much, much better. While WebGL is doing teapots spinning on a page, Unity is doing what people want.

There is a gap which isn't filled by Web GL, and Adobe wants to fill that gap. They'll have to fight for it, though. Those Unity folks are scrappy.

 

[lowbatteries]

BZZZT. Opera was first to have a browser out of Beta with the video tag. Firefox was second.

And supporting the video tag is not pushing HTML5 adoption. Apple are pushing with their moves with iOS, Google is by implementing features of HTML5 into their apps, Youtube being the first and biggest push. Apple was late in the pushing game.

Opera? Are they still around? Besides video, the iPhone supported many other features of HTML5 with the very first iPhone (web apps, offline storage, etc).

Of course, we're loosing site of the real point here: HTML5 and related open technologies are important now, and becoming even more important. Even the IE9 team are on board. The importance of Flash is quickly waning.