HTML5 Continuing to Gain Ground With Yahoo! Mail for iPad, Vimeo Embedding

[LagunaSol]

As a rich media developer I can tell you Flash is used for a lot more then just ads and video.

As an eLearning developer that outputs to Flash, I hear you.

I embrace HTML5 and hope it does well but all I have to say is that I need the industry to make up it's mind and fast.

It's not going to help if Apple's competitors embrace Flash solely to list it as a talking point in their marketing materials for their mobile devices.

Most of our clients and most of the business world is on IE 6, IE 7 or IE 8.

The business world needs to wake up and dump that turd IE6 already. Dumping IE entirely would be an even better idea.

The problem is that that giant slice of older IE users cannot use HTML5 at all.

Older IE users need to wake up and download a current browser (free).

That means that we would have to develop from the ground up a rich HTML5 site/web application as well as a Flash site/web application.

You know what? These archaic businesses and Web users will wise up and download a modern browser (again - free) if a lot of the websites they visit start to say "Sorry, your crusty old browser is not supported on this website."

No client I have seen yet wants to spend that kind of money when they already know for a fact that any computer outside of the Iphone can view Flash material.

BlackBerrys: can't view full Flash material. Palms Pres: can't view full Flash material. Android devices: most can't view full Flash material.

Mobile is the future of browsing. It's time companies start making mobile-compliant websites.

If the world is going to change to HTML5 then fine I don't really care. I am an artist I don't really care what tools I use for the job. So while some of you praise Apple for their position with Flash it has left some of us in a tough position.

I agree - there's going to be a lot of pain that comes with this transition (for me too). Does that mean we don't make the transition at all? Does that mean we drag the transition out over the next 10 years? The proprietary Flash Web needs to go, and it's amazing to me that the "free and open" Android crowd are waving Flash around as some kind of victory banner (not speaking of you here).

Now if IE 9, Firefox and the entire IT world can get their act together and universally support HTML5 and H264 then I think I can convince a lot more clients to switch.

This is the IT world that still pushes IE6. Sadly, they are going to have to be shoved into action by necessity.

 

[lowbatteries]

Missing the point here. I linked this site as an example of Flash used for something else than video in response to someone asking if Flash is really used just for video.

Ahh, gotcha. I thought you were responding to his last sentence:

But I do not remember a single site that did something with flash that was useful and couldn't be done with HTML.

The "couldn't be done with HTML" part is what I focused on.

From a user's perspective, they are missing out on parts of the web if they don't have Flash. Of course, this is the site developers fault, not Apple's. Any developer worth their salt knows that you don't depend on a plugin - any plugin, no matter how ubiquitous - for access to content or functionality (unless there really is no other way, such as with intensive games or pre-HTML5 video).

 

[lowbatteries]

Adapt or die. Been like this since since forever.

Sadly, this is true. I remember reading the warning signs that Flash was a dead-end since I programmed my first ugly Geocities page in high school.

Never plan your career around a single company's product (be it Flash, iPhone, Windows). Anybody who is out of a job as a "Flash Developer" was putting all their eggs into one basket.

 

[bf2008]

In Safari's advanced preferences pane, check the "show develop menu..." box. Then from the develop menu (between bookmarks and window), choose "Mobile Safari 3.2 - iPad" as your user agent.

you're a genius mate, thanks

 

[GamecockMac]

Irritated a little? Does weather in GB suck today or something? You'd do a great service to his forum if you tried to stick to the thread subject.

And you'd do a great service to this forum if you finally got it through your head that you aren't wanted here and no one takes a word you post seriously.

 

[LagunaSol]

And you'd do a great service to this forum if you finally got it through your head that you aren't wanted here and no one takes a word you post seriously.

The Ignore feature, man. It's magical.

 

[Plutonius]

I don't know what reason's Apple had for taking out the Floppy drive, but that doesn't make sense. They took out the floppy drive out I think in 1998. What benefits did that bring? Was is slowing down the computer? Why would any other company want to take out the floppy drive, much less be afraid to do so?

I would understand if perhaps on a laptop to save space, but most computers were desktop. It's like taking out the DVD/Blu ray drives out of regular desktop computers and staying with the space where the drive would have been. If that space would have been empty when I got my 1st computer it would have been a waste.

Cost and they replaced it with a cd drive (one of the first to use them)

 

[AidenShaw]

CD-R drives were still too expensive at that time but Apple knew they would be able to put them in the iMac within the year as costs went down.

The first Imac with an optical writer was in Feb 2001, and it looked like this:

Apple was quite slow in putting recordable optical drives in the Imac - nearly 3 years after the announcement.

 

[Eidorian]

The first Imac with an optical writer was in Feb 2001, and it looked like this:

Apple was quite slow in putting recordable optical drives in the Imac - nearly 3 years after the announcement.

It was a quagmire or DVD-ROM or CD-R machines for far too long back in those days.

 

[Daveoc64]

I agree - there's going to be a lot of pain that comes with this transition (for me too). Does that mean we don't make the transition at all? Does that mean we drag the transition out over the next 10 years? The proprietary Flash Web needs to go, and it's amazing to me that the "free and open" Android crowd are waving Flash around as some kind of victory banner (not speaking of you here).

Something being written in HTML5 does not ensure that it is free and open.

Take Yahoo Mail for example. They have a version specifically made for iPad (no other device can access it without spoofing the User Agent), then they have another version for iPhone.

That's not open, that's FAR worse than Flash is.

Safari for iOS is fast becoming the IE6 of mobile browsers. Developers could easily make great web apps that run on iOS, Android, WebOS, Blackberry etc. using web standards (like HTML5), but they just focus on iOS.

 

[pithy]

I'm new too macs, didn't know much about them until I bought a Macbook in 2007, but do you really think Apple killed the floppy disk? I bought my 1st computer in the year 2000 and I would have been pissed if it didn't had a floppy drive. It would have been beyond inconvinient. The thing that killed the floppy drive was CDr and more so USB flash disks. It's what killed it for me. I mean, most people 90% + knew almost nothing of macs, so how would it kill it. It's like saying that the USB drive was killed in America because the country Ugander stopped using it.

Good point. The Imac did dispense with the floppy first, which demonstrated that it was possble to survive without them. The development of little "jump drives" and the internet was probably more important thought, IMO.

 

[KnightWRX]

It will always be Flash's time unless people start getting pushed/pulled away from it. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest.

If it does, it means HTML5 failed to be a better technology. In the end, you can't just replace Flash with any pos that comes around and claims openess. The replacement needs to be better.

If HTML5 does end up being better, it will replace Flash on its own, without anyone needing to block it. Google gets this. And again, they are more involved with HTML5 than Apple. Swallow that pudding.

 

[Master Chief]

I really wonder why some people 'hate' Flash this much.

How come these people simply accept it that Apple takes Open Source code, and turns it into closed, proprietary software. That I tell you means much more to me than people trying to kick Adobe in the teeth, because Flash will eventually, but more naturally, evaporate when HTML5 is really that great, and accepted as its replacement.

 

[LagunaSol]

If it does, it means HTML5 failed to be a better technology. In the end, you can't just replace Flash with any pos that comes around and claims openess. The replacement needs to be better.

If HTML5 does end up being better, it will replace Flash on its own, without anyone needing to block it. Google gets this. And again, they are more involved with HTML5 than Apple. Swallow that pudding.

IE6 is inferior to just about any browser out there. Yet look how many people are still using it.

Unfortunately, superior technology doesn't always displace the crappy stuff. Fact.

 

[KnightWRX]

IE6 is inferior to just about any browser out there. Yet look how many people are still using it.

Unfortunately, superior technology doesn't always displace the crappy stuff. Fact.

Very few people ?

http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

6.79%, Chrome is ahead of IE6, so is Firefox. Intranet apps, what a concept.

 

[cherry su]

IE6 is inferior to just about any browser out there. Yet look how many people are still using it.

Unfortunately, superior technology doesn't always displace the crappy stuff. Fact.

but Firefox now has more marketshare than any one IE version! (we're making progress! )

 

[AidenShaw]

Very few people ?

http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

6.79%, Chrome is ahead of IE6, so is Firefox. Intranet apps, what a concept.

Another view - 17% for IE6, 16% for Firefox:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2

 

[KnightWRX]

Another view - 17% for IE6, 16% for Firefox:

Firefox has way more than 16% market share. Your graph is either old or grossly misrepresentative.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Firefox has way more than 16% market share. Your graph is either old or grossly misrepresentative.

depends on the source were they get the browse stats wcs for example I believe even states on an article on their site somewhere that they are a more technological based site so they tend to get more people like that going to its site. This means that they get higher ratings on FF, chrome and others and IE tends to take a hit.

I do agree 16% for FF is way to low.

 

[AidenShaw]

Firefox has way more than 16% market share. Your graph is either old or grossly misrepresentative.

If you'd look at the chart, you'd see that it's for individual browser versions. If you lump all versions together, it's:

 

[KnightWRX]

If you'd look at the chart, you'd see that it's for individual browser versions. If you lump all versions together, it's:

Those stats look awfully like coming from some kind of extranet app aimed at corporate customers. In the wild, IE6 market share is lower than that. Like Rodimus points out, market share stats depend greatly on your counter source, that's why using more consumer oriented counters give a better picture of the actual usage.

The fact is, IE6 is now getting replaced because there is an incentive to do so, not because people are blocking it (though some are, but the effort is mostly grassroots).

Flash will get replaced by HTML5 is HTML5 proves superior. Google is not pushing Flash at the cost of HTML5, they are understanding the market and providing choice to users while still greatly contributing to the future success of HTML5. This is more than Apple can say.

 

[E.Lizardo]

Your argument doesn't make sense. You ask for a reason why Apple took out the floppy - (ie if it wasn't done for a specific reason, such as to add a new feature it was a bad move)

They didn't include it because it's didn't add any value to the Mac, it cost more money to put one in, and if they had, it would have hindered the development of better technological alternatives.

I mean, you could say the same thing now, 12 years later. Why not have all computers still ship with a floppy drive, I mean, theres tons of room in towers to include one. Heck, why not include a 3 1/2 = floppy drive and a 5 1/2 " one, tons of room both.

In the end, it didn't effect the success of the iMac, and it made for a more streamlined and simple to use computer. The slot loading cd drive was centred for aesthetic feel in the middle of the all-in-one design. No need for another ugly drive to be located somewhere else.

And don't forget they sold a USB floppy at an affordable price for those that needed it-sort of like the MacBook Air's DVD drive.

 

[Master Chief]

Those stats look awfully like coming from some kind of extranet app aimed at corporate customers.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=0

In the wild, IE6 market share is lower than that. Like Rodimus points out, market share stats depend greatly on your counter source, that's why using more consumer oriented counters give a better picture of the actual usage.

The fact is, IE6 is now getting replaced because there is an incentive to do so, not because people are blocking it (though some are, but the effort is mostly grassroots).

Flash will get replaced by HTML5 is HTML5 proves superior. Google is not pushing Flash at the cost of HTML5, they are understanding the market and providing choice to users while still greatly contributing to the future success of HTML5. This is more than Apple can say.

I couldn't agree more. Just let it be. If people want Flash, then so be it. Fine by me. It's all about choice after all. Not Apple's bent forwards or die. Just plain old dirty, unethical marketing crap.

 

[dreamsburnred]

HTML 5 for the win.

As for flash, I just got my new Sony Vaio E series yesterday and last I check a regular youtube video only takes 5% CPU power. An HD video I think was like 12% or something. This flash debate is so silly to me, especially as time passes and cooler, faster computers keep coming out. The CPU only heats up around 105 to 110F during normal use, compared to 141 to 150F for my core 2 duo mac. At its peak the Vaio heats up to 130F while the Core 2 Duo at is lowest goes down to around 138F. So this flash video vs html 5 video is so silly.

Easy answer , Flash in Windows has GPU acceleration. It came to the mac this month, but only for the newest macs .

 

[LagunaSol]

Most of our clients and most of the business world is on IE 6, IE 7 or IE 8.

Very few people ?

6.79%, Chrome is ahead of IE6, so is Firefox. Intranet apps, what a concept.

smetvid's real-world experience (which echoes my own) disproves your point that the best Web technology will naturally rise to the top. It won't. Witness IE's pervasiveness. No matter which version of IE you want to quote statistics for, there are better browsers out there - that are free - yet people aren't using them en masse. Why not?

A good friend of mine is an IT director for a mid-sized company who had never tried an alternative browser until recently. Why not? Because IE was already on his machine, it was "good enough" (a Microsoft trademark), and it was too much bother to download and try something new. Huh??? And this is an IT professional - someone who is supposed to be experimenting with new technologies, always in search of the next best thing. Yet it's not happening. This is the apathy that HTML5 will have to contend with.

Flash of today is like the IE6 of yesterday (which, sadly, is still not entirely left behind): a proprietary mess controlled by a single corporation that Web designers need to start walking away from. And kudos to Steve Jobs, whatever his ulterior motives, for saying "You know what, this sucks and we're going to move on - even if it costs us some sales and subjects us to the endless rantings of the technorati."

I'm sick of the Flash-based Web and I can't wait to see it end. May it be sooner than later.