If Apple is Ordered to Unlock iPhone for FBI, Some Engineers Might Refuse to Help

[bradl]

You can make it up as you all you want but they're not a telecom. My guess the Apple legal team is arguing CALEA doesn't apply to them in the first place.

They don't have to provide a telecom service. The provisions of the CALEA apply to anyone who makes a telecom device, which an iPhone is.

Apple is more than likely going to argue that it DOES apply to them, as they are the makers of that device.

A Harvard Law professor and former assistant to the Obama administration agrees:

http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/17/calea-trumps-all-writs-act-apple-fbi/
https://backchannel.com/the-law-is-clear-the-fbi-cannot-make-apple-rewrite-its-os-9ae60c3bbc7b

The latter link has even been slashdotted:

https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/0...lear-the-fbi-cannot-make-apple-rewrite-its-os

The CALEA, as written, passed, and updated, definitely applies to Apple.

BL.

 

[gnasher729]

Those employees are acting like cowards. The reason the government wants this piece of software is to investigate a terrorist shooting where 14 innocent civilians were murdered in cold blood, not to snoop on every iPhone on the planet. Good grief, if any situation compels access, it's this one. What if it was your mother or father or brother or sister or wife that was killed in the attack? Just let the killers and their comrades get away with it because, well, keeping my cat videos private is more important.

NOBODY is asking for EVERY iPhone to have a back door, plain and simple, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or has no clue of the scope of the legal requests here. Apple has the technology and the security to comply with this request, and they should. Let the FBI investigate into this one phone, per the court order. Yes, there may be more requests for access to different phones in future law enforcement investigations, how could one not think there would not be? But each of those would have to go through the same legal safeguards of a warrant and court order before anyone could access those individual phones.

Very strange post. Why are you saying they are acting like cowards? What is cowardly about standing up for your belief that the security of millions and millions of iPhone users is more important than getting some information out of idle curiosity, that won't bring any of those 14 innocent civilians back to life, and that isn't going to lead to any conviction because the killer is shot dead? Please explain that to me. BTW. The San Bernardino police chief has publicly said that there is most likely no information of any value on this iPhone.

What you are saying, that nobody is asking for a backdoor for every iPhone, can only be the result of deliberately closing your eyes to the whole discussion that is going on. The FBI _claimed_ that they only want to unlock one phone, but we already know that there are over 175 more phones waiting. But the FBI also knows that it is impossible to write a backdoor for one iPhone only. Once it is written, it can be applied to any iPhone. Any iPhone, filled with the banking information of innocent people, but also any iPhone used by any police officer or army personnel, possibly containing critical information that can help terrorists.

And your first argument, no, no situation compels anything. You should listen to the interview with Michael Hayden, ex-NSA and CIA chief, who has declared that unlocking this iPhone endangers the national security of the USA. He isn't the only one in the NSA with that opinion. But you are basically saying that terrorists should be able to compel the USA to do things. Which means YOU are a coward. Only a coward lets terrorists dictate what a country should do. Only a coward even considers to let terrorists dictate what a country should do.

 

[duffman9000]

So then bottom line is no government should be trusted anyway around the world, yet everyone socially relies on a government to support the growing up.
Politics is the most pathetic invention human had ever created. Period.

No government should be trusted blindly or completely.

 

[gnasher729]

That would make sense, but I expect the FBI to go fully mental and try to detain these engineers.

Without an arrest warrant? Seriously?

They would be arrested for contempt of court at bare minimum, but I don't think they would stay in jail long, as I would imagine Apple's legal team would be at their disposal.

They wouldn't be in contempt of anything, because there is no court order ordering these engineers to do anything. Therefore there isn't an arrest warrant. Therefore any arrest would be illegal. Apple wouldn't call their legal team, but the local police and tell them that their engineers have been kidnapped by armed men in uniform.

If this happened, I think we can be sure someone will go to jail over it, maybe the engineers as they will be under contract of employment with Apple?. They will want to make an example if nothing else and rightly so.

So you think the government is starting to act completely irrational? Can't have any uppity engineers making the FBI look like idiots? "Making the FBI look like a bunch of idiots" is not a crime. Well, otherwise one half of the FBI would have to arrest the other half already...

 

[2984839]

Doesn't matter.

It absolutely matters in that the government is clearly and unquestionably breaking the law.

But you're partially right; it doesn't matter because the government doesn't care and will do it anyway.

 

[Gutwrench]

CALEA applies to switching and transmission

They don't have to provide a telecom service. The provisions of the CALEA apply to anyone who makes a telecom device, which an iPhone is.

Apple is more than likely going to argue that it DOES apply to them, as they are the makers of that device.

A Harvard Law professor and former assistant to the Obama administration agrees:

http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/17/calea-trumps-all-writs-act-apple-fbi/
https://backchannel.com/the-law-is-clear-the-fbi-cannot-make-apple-rewrite-its-os-9ae60c3bbc7b

The latter link has even been slashdotted:

https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/0...lear-the-fbi-cannot-make-apple-rewrite-its-os

The CALEA, as written, passed, and updated, definitely applies to Apple.

BL.

You're imagination is exhausting.

http://www.arl.org/focus-areas/priv.../calea/2414-calea-fcc-order-voip#.VutHFPA8KK0

http://www.subsentio.com/law-enforcement/service-providers-who-are-subject-to-the-calea-statute/

http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/13/why-apple-is-right-to-resist-the-fbi/

 

[SqB]

Judges have significant latitude to compel compliance of those found in contempt. Here are some remedies I believe that could be employed by justice:

• Apple could be fined significantly if they exceed their previously stated timeline of a few weeks to comply. The fines could be increased or doubled over time. The fines would be set to create a significant impact.
• The "Corporation" cannot be put in jail, but the officers of the corporation certainly can. However, video of marshals perp-walking Tim, Craig, Eddy and Jeff would pretty much lead to the next American revolution.
• I can't imagine that the engineers mentioned could be personally compelled to comply, however Apple could be compelled to hire or contract the talent necessary to comply with all penalties mentioned above used to enforce.

I certainly hope that the case is settled in Apple's favor because this has the potential to get really ugly.

 

[macfacts]

...What you are saying, that nobody is asking for a backdoor for every iPhone, can only be the result of deliberately closing your eyes to the whole discussion that is going on. The FBI _claimed_ that they only want to unlock one phone, but we already know that there are over 175 more phones waiting. But the FBI also knows that it is impossible to write a backdoor for one iPhone only. Once it is written, it can be applied to any iPhone. Any iPhone, filled with the banking information of innocent people, but also any iPhone used by any police officer or army personnel, possibly containing critical information that can help terrorists....

Show me where in the court order (page number) that this backdoor is for every iPhone. Stop spreading false information.

If you think it is impossible for Apple to make a backdoor that only works on one iPhone, then explain how Apple can restrict apps I buy from working on someone else's iPhone.

 

[Gutwrench]

It absolutely matters in that the government is clearly and unquestionably breaking the law.

Claiming Apple creates telecom equipment doesn't bring them under the requirement to comply with CALEA. To use the limitation of CALEA it must first apply. So Bradl's claim doesn't matter.

 

[pat500000]

So then bottom line is no government should be trusted anyway around the world, yet everyone socially relies on a government to support the growing up.
Politics is the most pathetic invention human had ever created. Period.

Government is never to be trusted. It's a human nature to want power to control others. They tend to abuse their power.

 

[bradl]

CALEA applies to switching and transmission


You're imagination is exhausting.

http://www.arl.org/focus-areas/priv.../calea/2414-calea-fcc-order-voip#.VutHFPA8KK0

http://www.subsentio.com/law-enforcement/service-providers-who-are-subject-to-the-calea-statute/

http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/13/why-apple-is-right-to-resist-the-fbi/

Here is what you miss, especially in relation to your third link. From that article:

Even if CALEA applied to Apple, the FBI would not be entitled under CALEA to force the company to break its encryption protocol. The statute in section 1002(b)(3) states that telecommunications companies are not responsible for decrypting communications “unless the encryption (1) was provided by the carrier and (2) the carrier possesses the information necessary to decrypt the communication.”

For everyone not in the know, Section 1002(b)(3) of CALEA states:

(3) Encryption
A telecommunications carrier shall not be responsible for decrypting, or ensuring the government’s ability to decrypt, any communication encrypted by a subscriber or customer, unless the encryption was provided by the carrier and the carrier possesses the information necessary to decrypt the communication.​

While you are stating that they are not a telecom, the intent of the FBI is to get Apple to rewrite its operating system to give them a backdoor, which firmly applies under section 1002(b)(1)(a) as something they can not do, as that would be a specific design of system configurations, which the government is prohibited from doing.

A Harvard Law prof wrote this piece, that Congress passed 22 years ago, yet it's "my imagination".

I'll ask you this: Is a phone telecommunications equipment?

BL.

 

[Gutwrench]

I never missed that. I agree with it. Yes, your understanding and interpretation is coming from your imagination not the written law.

 

[Larry-K]

And your first argument, no, no situation compels anything. You should listen to the interview with Michael Hayden, ex-NSA and CIA chief, who has declared that unlocking this iPhone endangers the national security of the USA. He isn't the only one in the NSA with that opinion. But you are basically saying that terrorists should be able to compel the USA to do things. Which means YOU are a coward. Only a coward lets terrorists dictate what a country should do. Only a coward even considers to let terrorists dictate what a country should do.

Read Richard Clarke's article on Ars technica, he asserts that the DOJ & the FBI do not have the backing of the rest of the US security community.

 

[bradl]

I never missed that. I agree with it. Yes, your understanding and interpretation is coming from your imagination not the written law.

So you disagree with the Harvard Law prof which this comes directly from? Because I'd have to say that she'd have vastly more experience and knowledge on this law and its provisions than you.

Or is it just her imagination too?

BL.

 

[duffman9000]

Without an arrest warrant? Seriously?



They wouldn't be in contempt of anything, because there is no court order ordering these engineers to do anything. Therefore there isn't an arrest warrant. Therefore any arrest would be illegal. Apple wouldn't call their legal team, but the local police and tell them that their engineers have been kidnapped by armed men in uniform.

I hope you're right. I dont discount that the FBI will try to argue that these engineers are impeding a national security investigation.

 

[Gutwrench]

So you disagree with the Harvard Law prof which this comes directly from? Because I'd have to say that she'd have vastly more experience and knowledge on this law and its provisions than you.

Or is it just her imagination too?

BL.

I'm very clear in what I've said.

 

[duffman9000]

If you think it is impossible for Apple to make a backdoor that only works on one iPhone, then explain how Apple can restrict apps I buy from working on someone else's iPhone.

Think about the recent iOS exploit that allows precisely this scenario: running apps that you did not pay for.

Apple has put tremendous resources into preventing this and it still happened.

Apple has a rather larger financial interest of not only themselves but also iOS developers, and this still happened.

 

[Glideslope]

Those employees are acting like cowards. The reason the government wants this piece of software is to investigate a terrorist shooting where 14 innocent civilians were murdered in cold blood, not to snoop on every iPhone on the planet. Good grief, if any situation compels access, it's this one. What if it was your mother or father or brother or sister or wife that was killed in the attack? Just let the killers and their comrades get away with it because, well, keeping my cat videos private is more important.

NOBODY is asking for EVERY iPhone to have a back door, plain and simple, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or has no clue of the scope of the legal requests here. Apple has the technology and the security to comply with this request, and they should. Let the FBI investigate into this one phone, per the court order. Yes, there may be more requests for access to different phones in future law enforcement investigations, how could one not think there would not be? But each of those would have to go through the same legal safeguards of a warrant and court order before anyone could access those individual phones.

Such naiveté. Simply numbing.

 

[Tech198]

Well done Apple...... The FBI can't do charge the non-working... I'd be doing allot more than just the middle finger, but this is a public forum

But then going to the extreme 'key' people quit, where would that eave security on iOS anyway ?

Be good to see what happens next... Stay tuned till next Tuesday for the final showdown.

 

[thewap]

FBI will not care if the employees quit. What they should do is refuse to do Apple's bidding even if Apple is forced to cooperate with the court order.

 

[pat500000]

What if Apple said it cannot be done? Who's to know they aren't lying? What if their software was that good?
I guess we would still be in the same predicament though.
Apple should put the govtos on this phone, but oops due to a bug, we wiped the phone.

I hear you...but if apple was forced to make a next ios to have back door.....well.....

 

[gnasher729]

Show me where in the court order (page number) that this backdoor is for every iPhone. Stop spreading false information.

If you think it is impossible for Apple to make a backdoor that only works on one iPhone, then explain how Apple can restrict apps I buy from working on someone else's iPhone.

"Stop spreading false information", coming from you of all people? It is absolutely you who is trying to bamboozle people here. The FBI chief himself has clearly stated that he has many more phones that he wants to crack in the same way. If you think he was lying, tell us about it.

Regarding your technical question, hoping that it isn't too complicated for you: The App Store transmits an application to your phone, together with a receipt. The receipt contains cryptographically signed information about the AppleID of the purchaser. The software on the phone only installs the software if the AppleID in the receipt agrees with the AppleID of the phone in question.

Installing firmware works in a completely different way. An iPhone accepts new firmware if the firmware is signed by Apple's signing key, making sure that the firmware comes from Apple and not from some random hacker. Since Apple makes all the firmware that it creates available to all phones, the existing software on the iPhone that installs firmware has no provisions whatsoever to check if that firmware is meant for this particular phone; it only checks that the firmware is signed by Apple.

Whether software can be installed or not is controlled by the software already on the phone. The software that installs apps has checks so the software can only be installed on one phone. The software that installs firmware has no such checks.
[doublepost=1458262877][/doublepost]

I hear you...but if apple was forced to make a next ios to have back door.....well.....

How can they be forced? The FBI tries to force them to do something because of a crime that has happened. When Apple releases a new iOS version, nobody who has committed a crime is in the possession of that iOS version yet.
[doublepost=1458262967][/doublepost]

I hope you're right. I dont discount that the FBI will try to argue that these engineers are impeding a national security investigation.

It's not up to the FBI to decide.

Read Richard Clarke's article on Ars technica, he asserts that the DOJ & the FBI do not have the backing of the rest of the US security community.

Absolutely. Worst case scenario: The NSA has techniques to break into the iPhones of terrorists. Maybe they found some clever trick to get around the "delete after ten incorrect PINs" feature. Obviously they wouldn't be telling anyone, because they would _want_ terrorists to store critical information on their iPhones. And now the FBI comes and forces Apple to unlock this phone, and all but the most stupid terrorists stop using iPhones and the NSA has lost that source of information.

(The NSA wouldn't tell the FBI either, because they _know_ that the FBI guys wouldn't be able to keep their mouths shut. If they broke into this phone with the help of the NSA, you would just _know_ that they would have to brag about it. Unlike the NSA which could do that kind of thing and _keep quiet about it_).

 

[Tech198]

They should just write really buggy code... The kind that prevents iOS from booting.

lol. that'll by time....Few FBI people would see red over that.
[doublepost=1458263129][/doublepost]The other side of the story would be Apple employees have something up their sleeves for next week

 

[jettredmont]

Absolutely they would quit. With the number of phones already lined up to take advantage of the precedent the FBI is trying to set up here, these guys' Dream Apple Job Working on Cool Stuff would be changed to Guys Doing Nothing But Writing FBI Hacks Every Day.

I'd quit too. They can get paid better elsewhere in the Valley if they aren't driven by the desire to build cool stuff that people love to use.

 

[Candlelight]

So... if Apple loses the court case and orders its engineers to unlock the devices, and they refuse... fire them.