Illinois Floats Bill That Would Let Developers Skirt Apple's In-App Purchase Rules

[boyarka]

I think you need to look up the definition of monopoly. In no market is Apple a monopoly. The majority of phones are android and the majority of personal computers are running Windows. At one time they had the majority of tablets but I’m not even sure if that’s the case anymore. Even if it was and they had for example a 70% market share of tablets that’s still not a monopoly.

Your weak attempt at blissful ignorance is noted. Have a seat, that's an F.

 

[I7guy]

Awesome!! App Store yes. The fact it is a walled garden? No. Most consumers likely have no real clue what “walled garden” means in this reference.

Folks I have heard refer to the App Store is based on selection/choice. Not walled.

Correct: App Store reputation of safety, security, selection and choice. And what underlies safety and security is a walled garden of which sideloading is the antithesis of.

 

[I7guy]

Maybe I’ve forgotten it since it’s been awhile since I reviewed the particulars of the case, but did Apple’s lawyers bring up the fact that Walmart, Best Buy, etc. don’t have to have alternate registers in their stores? If they didn’t, the judge wouldn’t have even had the opportunity to make the retort I had stated and thus has zero bearing on whether she’s a good judge. If Apple’s lawyers did in fact bring up Best Buy and others lack of other payment systems and she didn’t drill down further on those claims from Apple, I would indeed say that was an oversight on her part.

Depending, the appeal could swing the other way, or not, if the appeals court finds that judge Gonzales’ rulings are legally weak.

 

[vipergts2207]

Depending, the appeal could swing the other way, or not, if the appeals court finds that judge Gonzales’ rulings are legally weak.

Ok but this doesn’t address my question at all regarding whether or not Apple’s lawyers had brought up the topic above regarding other retailers and their lack of alternative payment systems.

 

[I7guy]

Ok but this doesn’t address my question at all regarding whether or not Apple’s lawyers had brought up the topic above regarding other retailers and their lack of alternative payment systems.

Don’t remember after initially watching some internet analysis such as hoeg law. A lot more will probably surface during the appeals process.

 

[vipergts2207]

Don’t remember after initially watching some internet analysis such as hoeg law. A lot more will probably surface during the appeals process.

I would imagine if it came up it would’ve been mentioned in the nearly 200 page document as one of Apple’s arguments. I also suspect Apple’s lawyers wouldn’t even use such an inappropriate and likely self-defeating argument. If you’re arguing a case that you’re not a monopoly, I doubt you’d want to bring up scenarios involving companies with marketshare in the teens.

 

[I7guy]

I would imagine if it came up it would’ve been mentioned in the nearly 200 page document as one of Apple’s arguments. I also suspect Apple’s lawyers wouldn’t even use such an inappropriate and likely self-defeating argument. If you’re arguing a case that you’re not a monopoly, I doubt you’d want to bring up scenarios involving companies with marketshare in the teens.

A common sense point such as Walmart is not required to host target cash registers sometimes may not be appropriate in a court of law. We will see if epic can come back to prove that apple iOS App Store is a monopoly, but I doubt it.

 

[Realityck]

You realize you can buy all sorts of things online, right? Do you currently limit all your online shopping to the App Store?

Thats a interesting thought, is anyone forced to use, buy anything particular from the App Store? If you buy a iPhone with its usually array of functionality built into iOS. What is so important that you need the state to dictate buying terms for a product that is USA wide?

 

[vipergts2207]

A common sense point such as Walmart is not required to host target cash registers sometimes may not be appropriate in a court of law. We will see if epic can come back to prove that apple iOS App Store is a monopoly, but I doubt it.

Yes that is common sense, as Walmart and Target are direct competitors. Why on Earth would they host each other’s payment systems? Most app developers are not competitors with Apple in the first place, so the comparison already starts to falter there. And for those few that are competitors, that’s when people start pointing out the fact that Apple is playing the role of both player and referee.

Further, Walmart and Target are players in a market with many other competitors and neither has even close to majority marketshare. Hopefully you can see why the comparison with brick and mortar retailers is so ill-conceived.

Regardless of what happens on appeal, this is a new law that would apply to Illinois anyway. It’s unrelated to that case.

 

[I7guy]

Yes that is common sense, as Walmart and Target are direct competitors. Why on Earth would they host each other’s payment systems? Further, they’re also both players in a market with many players and neither has even close to majority marketshare. Hopefully you can see why the comparison is so ill-conceived.

No it’s a representation of the issue. The fact there aren’t many o/s competitors but dozens of manufacturers in the cell phone market is a result of the free market at work. Hopefully you can see that.

 

[vipergts2207]

No it’s a representation of the issue. The fact there aren’t many o/s competitors but dozens of manufacturers in the cell phone market is a result of the free market at work. Hopefully you can see that.

An exceedingly poor representation of the issue. The representation completely falls to pieces when you look at the relative health and vibrancy of brick and mortar as well as online retailers that exists on one side and then compare that to the duopoly that exists with mobile OS’s and their marketplaces on the other.

The lack of other OS competitors surely is a result of the free market. And now it’s time to implement regulations that recognize the significant impacts of that result.

 

[I7guy]

An exceedingly poor representation of the issue. The representation completely falls to pieces when you look at the relative health and vibrancy of brick and mortar as well as online retailers that exists on one side and then compare that to the duopoly that exists with mobile OS’s and their marketplaces on the other.

The lack of other OS competitors surely is a result of the free market. And now it’s time to implement regulations that recognize the significant impacts of that result.

We’ll it’s great that we can debate the veracity of the posts themselves. The representation is spot on.

Government should not interfere with free market choice. It’s not even agree to disagree, its just disagree.

 

[dk001]

Correct: App Store reputation of safety, security, selection and choice. And what underlies safety and security is a walled garden of which sideloading is the antithesis of.

I’ll give you the last two. The first two at best a maybe in the consumer’s mind.

 

[vipergts2207]

We’ll it’s great that we can debate the veracity of the posts themselves. The representation is spot on.

Government should not interfere with free market choice. It’s not even agree to disagree, its just disagree.

You have to ignore immense differences to believe the brick and mortar marketplace accurately represents the duolopy situation with Apple and Google lmao.

Government interferes with free market choice all the time. Hopefully you’re not under the impression that we have true free market economy. An automaker cannot sell me a vehicle without airbags, even if the automaker and I would otherwise like to make such a transaction. In fact, in general an automaker cannot sell me a vehicle at all. The transaction has to take place through a dealer in most instances because of various laws.

 

[dk001]

Thats a interesting thought, is anyone forced to use, buy anything particular from the App Store? If you buy a iPhone with its usually array of functionality built into iOS. What is so important that you need the state to dictate buying terms for a product that is USA wide?

LMAO!!! Tell that to California This State thinks they can.

 

[I7guy]

You have to ignore immense differences to believe the brick and mortar marketplace accurately represents the duolopy situation with Apple and Google lmao.

Government interferes with free market choice all the time. Hopefully you’re not under the impression that we have true free market economy. An automaker cannot sell me a vehicle without airbags, even if the automaker and I would otherwise like to make such a transaction.

Right, and government mandating seat belts and airbags seem a good thing. Laws where the government is attempting to lessen our chances of death in everyday life seems like the perfect use of our tax dollars.

This bill floated by the Illinois legislature and the pending federal bill I’m in disagreement with. But horses for courses.

 

[Realityck]

LMAO!!! Tell that to California This State thinks they can.

The state attorney is looking for some fame is all I see by hoping to join in this federal court debate after allowing Apple to present its arguments why the part they lost in the lower court is wrong.

"Apple has demonstrated, at minimum, that its appeal raises serious questions on the merits of the district court's determination that Epic Games, Inc. failed to show Apple's conduct violated any antitrust laws but did show that the same conduct violated California's Unfair Competition Law," the judges wrote in granting Apple's motion for a stay.

 

[russell_314]

Your weak attempt at blissful ignorance is noted. Have a seat, that's an F.

Ummm okay? ?‍♂️?

 

[russell_314]

In Illinois, where these laws would take effect, iPhones are almost certainly the majority of phones. About 60% of consumers in the U.S. use an iPhone. Unless Illinois is a major outlier, that would apply to them as well. As far as your 70% figure for iPads go, that figure itself would not dictate whether or not Apple is a monopoly. Generally under 50% would automatically mean no and over 75% would automatically mean yes. In between is a gray area and would be in need of further analysis.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your 60% figure from because most sales figures I’ve seen show around 50% or less. I mean if we’re calling Apple a monopoly for 60% even if that figure is accurate we better shut down Sony and Microsoft for game consuls and will shut down Microsoft again for computers since they probably have like a 90% market share. We could shut down Verizon and AT&T because I’m sure they have pretty high percentages. Then of course there’s Samsung because they pretty much have the android phone market cornered in the USA.

Of course this is stuff for the courts to determine and not forum experts like myself (Just kidding about the expert thing) but historically many companies have enjoyed a high market share without being tagged as a monopoly.

 

[russell_314]

LMAO!!! Tell that to California This State thinks they can.

All you had to say was California. No one would be surprised by anything that followed ?

 

[vipergts2207]

I’m not sure where you’re getting your 60% figure from because most sales figures I’ve seen show around 50% or less. I mean if we’re calling Apple a monopoly for 60% even if that figure is accurate we better shut down Sony and Microsoft for game consuls and will shut down Microsoft again for computers since they probably have like a 90% market share. We could shut down Verizon and AT&T because I’m sure they have pretty high percentages. Then of course there’s Samsung because they pretty much have the android phone market cornered in the USA.

Of course this is stuff for the courts to determine and not forum experts like myself (Just kidding about the expert thing) but historically many companies have enjoyed a high market share without being tagged as a monopoly.

Here’s the data.

Mobile Operating System Market Share United States Of America | Statcounter Global Stats

This graph shows the market share of mobile operating systems in United States Of America based on over 5 billion monthly page views.

gs.statcounter.com

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Here’s the data.

Mobile Operating System Market Share United States Of America | Statcounter Global Stats

This graph shows the market share of mobile operating systems in United States Of America based on over 5 billion monthly page views.

gs.statcounter.com

The problem is clear to me, the US government allows far too much choose in which phone to use. Wait, no, that’s not it. The same choices are available to citizens around the world and Google has 70+% of the worldwide market. Should the US government begin rationing iPhones? I mean, it appears that, as long as iPhones are available, Americans are going to buy them.

So, I think that is the solution. Rather than alter how Apple does business (which would have knock on effects ACROSS the economy as people use this case as a precedent), simply force Americans to buy Android phones, maybe even offer tax breaks for Android devices. Once Apple’s US marketshare drops to where it’s more like the rest of the world, boom! no more problem with the App Store!

 

[I7guy]

The problem is clear to me, the US government allows far too much choose in which phone to use. Wait, no, that’s not it. The same choices are available to citizens around the world and Google has 70+% of the worldwide market. Should the US government begin rationing iPhones? I mean, it appears that, as long as iPhones are available, Americans are going to buy them.

So, I think that is the solution. Rather than alter how Apple does business (which would have knock on effects ACROSS the economy as people use this case as a precedent), simply force Americans to buy Android phones, maybe even offer tax breaks for Android devices. Once Apple’s US marketshare drops to where it’s more like the rest of the world, boom! no more problem with the App Store!

The consumers have spoken. Although there are literally dozens of cell phone manufacturers apple and Samsung have the majority share.

 

[vipergts2207]

The problem is clear to me, the US government allows far too much choose in which phone to use. Wait, no, that’s not it. The same choices are available to citizens around the world and Google has 70+% of the worldwide market. Should the US government begin rationing iPhones? I mean, it appears that, as long as iPhones are available, Americans are going to buy them.

So, I think that is the solution. Rather than alter how Apple does business (which would have knock on effects ACROSS the economy as people use this case as a precedent), simply force Americans to buy Android phones, maybe even offer tax breaks for Android devices. Once Apple’s US marketshare drops to where it’s more like the rest of the world, boom! no more problem with the App Store!

@I7guy

If you want an example of a straw man here’s a textbook example of one.

 

[I7guy]

@I7guy

If you want an example of a straw man here’s a textbook example of one.

He’s 100% correct. The government is stepping in to regulate an industry that was won by innovation and smart thinking. Textbook capitalism.