I'm genuinely surprised by the negative reviews of the Studio Display

[srgz]

“6. Ain't no technology supporting 120Hz at 5K. How you going to get that to the display? Thunderbolt 4? Doubtful. What Mac could even drive this via existing video output? None.”

Again let me ejumacate you some on video tech…it would work the same way the Pro Display XDR works at 60Hz at 6K at 10-bit RGB (with HDR metadata!).

It uses DSC, display stream compression…DSC is natively supported on all modern video cards with DisplayPort 1.4 and on all M series macs. The video stream is compressed in real time, without any visible artifacts or chroma subsampling.

There have been plenty of 4K/144hz (I believe some even higher with overclocking) monitors on the market for awhile.

There’s also a rumor that Apple will indeed announce a 120Hz VRR ProMotion version of the Studio Display at WWDC or this fall.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

“6. Ain't no technology supporting 120Hz at 5K. How you going to get that to the display? Thunderbolt 4? Doubtful. What Mac could even drive this via existing video output? None.”

Again let me ejumacate you some on video tech…it would work the same way the Pro Display XDR works at 60Hz at 6K at 10-bit RGB (with HDR metadata!).

It uses DSC, display stream compression…DSC is natively supported on all modern video cards with DisplayPort 1.4 and on all M series macs. The video stream is compressed in real time, without any visible artifacts or chroma subsampling.

There have been plenty of 4K/144hz (I believe some even higher with overclocking) monitors on the market for awhile.

There’s also a rumor that Apple will indeed announce a 120Hz VRR ProMotion version of the Studio Display at WWDC or this fall.

Using DSC with HBR3 transmission rates, DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680 × 4320) at 60 Hz or 4K UHD (3840 × 2160) at 120 Hz. I’ve found documentation that DisplayPort 2.0 would be able to support 8K at 120 Hz (so 5K would be possible), but I haven’t found anything that confirms 1.4 can support 5K at 120 Hz.

Understanding that DSC compresses the color data, but not the raw number of pixels, looking at the comparative resolutions…
4K 3840x2160 8,294,400

5K 5120x2880 14,745,600

It’s only one more “K”, but it’s 6,451,200 million more pixels. Almost twice as many pixels combined with twice the framerate likely puts 5K 120Hz out of the range of DisplayPort 1.4.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Again, I’m not trying to rain on your parade here. If it works for you, that’s awesome.

But you can get higher quality native 10-bit panels with competitor products, that have even more accurate colors, and better uniformity, with true uniformity compensation and uniformity calibration even, for even less money…just not at 5K res.

My immediate previous monitor was an LG 4K 27". The PPI of the Studio display is a big upgrade, and perfect matches my Pro Display XDR directly beside.

Everyone has different priorities, but for me, color accuracy and PPI are tied for first place. The ASD nails those, so I can live with every other 'compromise' ha.

 

[CaptRB]

You can't tell the difference viewing text on a 110 ppi monitor (Viewsonic) and a 220 ppi monitor (ASD, iMac 5K)? That should be a red flag something's up. You're effectively arguing there's no difference viewing text on retina and non-retina screens, but I don't think you'd find many people who couldn't see an obvious difference when the first retina iPhone came out, or the retina MacBook Pros, compared to their previous non-retina screens.

If you think about your technique of blowing up the text by 200-300% when comparing each monitor, and what that does to the number of pixels being used to render each character of text, I think it'll make sense. If you reduce the text instead, you should find a point where the lower PPI screen gets blurry while the higher PPI screen stays sharp. That's where the eye fatigue starts.

When working in various word processing software, I'm typically at or above 150% on both screens. According my Mac genius buddy, the software is not rendering text at a resolution that would result in additional sharpness at 5K. If type looks fuzzy on a 4K monitor, you ether have a poor monitor or have it setup incorrectly. For example: HDMI from the Mac to my 4K does not look the same as the display port, which is absolutely razor sharp at all magnifications.

This is confirmed as I have these monitors side-by-side and no one can see any difference in type sharpness. Frankly, I never EVER heard of anyone making a claim that type isn't perfectly sharp on a good quality 4K. There's no math to support such a claim.

HOWEVER, when using my 46 MP still camera, the 5K monitor does off a small advantage in detail, though I have to honestly say it's pretty insignificant and again, the Dell's matte screen is still more pleasing.

I ordered the widescreen Viewsonic and will test it against both the 4K and 5K displays for text. I've already seen how beautifully it does for video and photography and it it's HDR capable.


Robert


Robert

 

[BeatCrazy]

“6. Ain't no technology supporting 120Hz at 5K. How you going to get that to the display? Thunderbolt 4? Doubtful. What Mac could even drive this via existing video output? None.”

Again let me ejumacate you some on video tech…it would work the same way the Pro Display XDR works at 60Hz at 6K at 10-bit RGB (with HDR metadata!).

It uses DSC, display stream compression…DSC is natively supported on all modern video cards with DisplayPort 1.4 and on all M series macs. The video stream is compressed in real time, without any visible artifacts or chroma subsampling.

There have been plenty of 4K/144hz (I believe some even higher with overclocking) monitors on the market for awhile.

There’s also a rumor that Apple will indeed announce a 120Hz VRR ProMotion version of the Studio Display at WWDC or this fall.

But you still didn't answer the question? What Mac could drive a 5K/120Hz display?

Using DSC with HBR3 transmission rates, DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680 × 4320) at 60 Hz or 4K UHD (3840 × 2160) at 120 Hz. I’ve found documentation that DisplayPort 2.0 would be able to support 8K at 120 Hz (so 5K would be possible), but I haven’t found anything that confirms 1.4 can support 5K at 120 Hz.

Understanding that DSC compresses the color data, but not the raw number of pixels, looking at the comparative resolutions…
4K 3840x2160 8,294,400

5K 5120x2880 14,745,600

It’s only one more “K”, but it’s 6,451,200 million more pixels. Almost twice as many pixels combined with twice the framerate likely puts 5K 120Hz out of the range of DisplayPort 1.4.

This man right here ^^^

 

[srgz]

The Studio Display is not advertised or marketed as a "pro grade color monitor". So there should be no expectation that it uses a 10-bit panel.

So why is it priced like one, exactly?

 

[BeatCrazy]

So why is it priced like one, exactly?

Just because a C8 Corvette and a Cadillac Escalade are priced the same doesn't mean they have identical features or target demographics.

 

[srgz]

Using DSC with HBR3 transmission rates, DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680 × 4320) at 60 Hz or 4K UHD (3840 × 2160) at 120 Hz. I’ve found documentation that DisplayPort 2.0 would be able to support 8K at 120 Hz (so 5K would be possible), but I haven’t found anything that confirms 1.4 can support 5K at 120 Hz.

Understanding that DSC compresses the color data, but not the raw number of pixels, looking at the comparative resolutions…
4K 3840x2160 8,294,400

5K 5120x2880 14,745,600

It’s only one more “K”, but it’s 6,451,200 million more pixels. Almost twice as many pixels combined with twice the framerate likely puts 5K 120Hz out of the range of DisplayPort 1.4.

This is 100% wrong.

Pro Display XDR at 120Hz bandwidth calculations

Pro Display XDR at 120Hz bandwidth calculations. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.

gist.github.com

You can do 6K at 120Hz with DSC with full 10-bit RGB using a compression ratio of 3.75:1

You have to remember, the compression ratio in DSC is not fixed...it can be whatever you want, so long as it's still in spec and counts as "visually lossless" -- meaning someone sitting next to two monitors, one with it, and one without it, can't tell the difference

As to which macs can drive them, ANY that support DSC with Thunderbolt 4 / DP 1.4 / HBR3 -- so that is all M1's and any Mac Pro with an RDNA2 AMD GPU.

I've got little doubt that a 120 Hz 5K Studio Display is just around the corner, though they will probably price it accordingly.

 

[srgz]

My immediate previous monitor was an LG 4K 27". The PPI of the Studio display is a big upgrade, and perfect matches my Pro Display XDR directly beside.

Everyone has different priorities, but for me, color accuracy and PPI are tied for first place. The ASD nails those, so I can live with every other 'compromise' ha.

This is something I don't quite get. I have a 4K 32" monitor (137 PPI) and where I sit / distance to the screen from my eyes...it seems "retina" enough, for me. Maybe I just sit back further (or is it farther? lol) than most people? I just got out the tape measure, and I measured 33" from the center of the screen to my head / eyes, straight shot.

There's a lot of people that complain about 4K with scaling on Mac OS though...I never really understood the problem :🤷:

2650x1440 scaling to me looks pretty great, at 4K/32", sitting where I sit.

 

[BeatCrazy]

This is something I don't quite get. I have a 4K 32" monitor (137 PPI) and where I sit / distance to the screen from my eyes...it seems "retina" enough, for me. Maybe I just sit back further (or is it farther? lol) than most people? I just got out the tape measure, and I measured 33" from the center of the screen to my head / eyes, straight shot.

There's a lot of people that complain about 4K with scaling on Mac OS though...I never really understood the problem :?:

2650x1440 scaling to me looks pretty great, at 4K/32", sitting where I sit.

My eyes are closer to the screen than that, and the pixels really stand out to me. I work with a lot of text, and ~160PPI or less just doesn't look very good to me.

 

[srgz]

My eyes are closer to the screen than that, and the pixels really stand out to me. I work with a lot of text, and ~160PPI or less just doesn't look very good to me.

Fair enough, makes sense at least, the closer you sit, the more PPI matters.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

This is 100% wrong.

Well, not 100% wrong.
“Using DSC with HBR3 transmission rates, DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680 × 4320) at 60 Hz or 4K UHD (3840 × 2160) at 120 Hz.” This is accurate. I had been looking for information for the rates in between, so thanks for the link to that!

You can do 6K at 120Hz with DSC with full 10-bit RGB using a compression ratio of 3.75:1

Indeed, 3.75:1 IS within spec. I’m guessing there’s no current monitors that use this ratio, though, as there’s a broad gulf between 4k and 8k. Can Apple find anyone to make a 120Hz 5K for ‘em? Any rumors of anyone working on such a panel?[/b]

 

[srgz]

Well, not 100% wrong.
“Using DSC with HBR3 transmission rates, DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680 × 4320) at 60 Hz or 4K UHD (3840 × 2160) at 120 Hz.” This is accurate. I had been looking for information for the rates in between, so thanks for the link to that!


Indeed, 3.75:1 IS within spec. I’m guessing there’s no current monitors that use this ratio, though, as there’s a broad gulf between 4k and 8k. Can Apple find anyone to make a 120Hz 5K for ‘em? Any rumors of anyone working on such a panel?

Yes, there are rumors of a ProMotion capable (high refresh rate) studio display already in the works

27-Inch 'Studio Display Pro' With Mini-LED and ProMotion Could Launch in June

Apple plans to launch a "Pro" version of its new Studio Display in June of this year that measures 27-inches and has mini-LED and ProMotion,...

www.macrumors.com

Panel would be made by LG, naturally

I think it probably won’t ship until end of year or beginning of next year, if I had to wager money on it

 

[zach-coleman]

So is the inevitable Pro Motion XDR going to require 2 T-Bolt cables? I feel like there is zero chance Apple refreshes the XDR without Pro Motion if they put it on a cheaper display, but its claimed to be 7k in the rumors. I'm not sure this rumor makes sense. Maybe though...

 

[CalMin]

So is the inevitable Pro Motion XDR going to require 2 T-Bolt cables?

Probably. But you know there will only be one cable in the box. The second one will be a $200 up charge.

 

[4419867]

My criticisms of the studio display:

2.) Integrated webcam quality sucks, and no Face ID to boot -- also no way to turn it off, not even a privacy slider

I don't care about FaceID (prefer TouchID) but yes, I would love if the webcam could be turned off or at least offer some privacy slider/shutter.

My criticisms of the studio display:

3.) Only one single video input, again unheard of at this price point with competitors -- if you want to use it with multiple devices you're going to have to manually pull out the cable and switch it every single tim

Sad.

My criticisms of the studio display:

4.) semi-fixed Power cable design is just plain dumb, could have easily used MagSafe with an external power supply -- and they also would not have needed to put fans inside of the case if they did it this way...there would be no components inside the case of the monitor that would need active cooling with an external MagSafe connected power brick...I get it, the fans are not that loud (at least normally), but NO FANS would certainly have been much better, especially for people who require low noise environments.

Whoa, did not know about the fans. I hate fans when not needed (and when impossible to clean!). Also semi-fixed power cable is just like you said, plain dumb.

My criticisms of the studio display:

5.) Competitors include better stands with tilt / swivel and height adjust for free

At least height adjustment. I don't care for swivel but I do care a lot about height adjustment because neck pain. I both sit and stand in front of my desk and maybe you share your desk with someone. Also dumb not to include VESA but force people to go with or without a stand.

My criticisms of the studio display:

1.) Nearly all competitors offer native 10-bit panels at this price point

6.) The least they could have done given the asking price was upgraded the panel to 120Hz with ProMotion -- even without real HDR, that would've been a MUCH better deal / value.

I could go on...lol.

TL;dr I see the studio display as a really bad value and an even worse investment, especially at a time when IPS panels without local dimming are ancient technology and better display tech like QD-OLED is going to make this thing look like a dinosaur in no time at all.

The time to release this thing was 2-3 years ago, maybe then it would've been a better value / investment.

The other is not a big thing for me. Only the price...

 

[zach-coleman]

Probably. But you know there will only be one cable in the box. The second one will be a $200 up charge.

You know if plugging in one cable does 60hrz and the second cable speeds up the io ports and doubles the refresh rate I can almost see this, unfortunately.

 

[srgz]

So is the inevitable Pro Motion XDR going to require 2 T-Bolt cables? I feel like there is zero chance Apple refreshes the XDR without Pro Motion if they put it on a cheaper display, but its claimed to be 7k in the rumors. I'm not sure this rumor makes sense. Maybe though...

See my post above about DSC (display stream compression).

For a hypothetical 6K 120Hz display at 10-bit RGB, that would be 78.61 Gbps of video bandwidth, uncompressed.

With DSC at a compression ratio of 3.75:1 that drops you down to ~21Gbps — within the limits of HBR3 / DP 1.4.

You would only need one TB cable, but there isn’t much bandwidth left over for the USB hub.

I doubt anyone is really needing to plug high speed storage peripherals into the backs of their monitors…and this is currently a problem with the existing Pro Display XDR already, and no one really seems to mind.

 

[srgz]

I don't care about FaceID (prefer TouchID) but yes, I would love if the webcam could be turned off or at least offer some privacy slider/shutter.

Sad.

Whoa, did not know about the fans. I hate fans when not needed (and when impossible to clean!). Also semi-fixed power cable is just like you said, plain dumb.

At least height adjustment. I don't care for swivel but I do care a lot about height adjustment because neck pain. I both sit and stand in front of my desk and maybe you share your desk with someone. Also dumb not to include VESA but force people to go with or without a stand.

The other is not a big thing for me. Only the price...

The fans are not that big of a deal, to be honest. They’re very quiet, under normal circumstances…it’s just, they’re unnecessary. The only reason this thing needs active cooling is because they put the power supply *inside* the case. Had they used a MagSafe brick (like the M1 iMac) this wouldn’t be a problem, and it would also have been a way better design for the power cable too. Just smacks of not trying.

I’m not an expert on Apple designs but if I had to guess I would say they originally designed this monitor case to be a computer, like an iMac, and then for some reason scrapped it and came up with MagSafe instead, which — if true, whoever greenlit that in Apple management is my hero. MagSafe on the M1 iMac is a thing of beauty.

Re: not caring about Face ID…the main point I was trying to make was, everything to make it work is there, and just that one additional feature would have added a lot of value to the product.
Those Touch ID enabled keyboards are expensive and have laptop / low profile keys and switches (bleh!!)….Again, smacks of just plain not trying or caring, which makes my face go meh.

 

[StudioMacs]

The external power supply on the 24” iMac is the size of an Apple TV, so there’s that.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You would only need one TB cable, but there isn’t much bandwidth left over for the USB hub.

So, I was kinda wondering if that page was describing a theoretical video only device. With the Studio Display, there’s microphones, speakers, and a video camera BEFORE you even get to to the three downstream USB-C ports (up to 10Gb/s) for connecting peripherals, storage, and networking. Does anyone know if that’s up to 10Gb/s per port or shared between them? That would take 30Gb/s of the bandwidth right off the top.

By comparison, the XDR display has three USB-C (USB 2) ports for charging or syncing, no camera, no speakers… those decisions may have been made to ensure the screen has the bandwidth needed.

I’m back to my original thinking. A Studio Display monitor like the current one likely can’t be produced to run 120Hz, unless we’re removing the camera, microphone and speakers and reducing the speed of the USB-C ports

 

[enricoclaudio]

Not sure if 5K + Promotion @ 120Hz can be handle by a single TB4 port but thanks to DSC, I can run dual ASDs at full 5K @ 60Hz with a single TB4 port out of my 14” MBP M1 Pro throughout a Satechi Thunderbolt 4 Dock without a single issue!!

 

[macpro2000]

I wonder if you could run 3? Theoretically how many total could a new man studio run then? At least 12?

 

[BeatCrazy]

I wonder if you could run 3? Theoretically how many total could a new man studio run then? At least 12?

Two max from a single cable into a dock. But a total of 5 displays, one being via HDMI.

 

[4419867]

The fans are not that big of a deal, to be honest. They’re very quiet, under normal circumstances…it’s just, they’re unnecessary. The only reason this thing needs active cooling is because they put the power supply *inside* the case. Had they used a MagSafe brick (like the M1 iMac) this wouldn’t be a problem, and it would also have been a way better design for the power cable too. Just smacks of not trying.

I’m not an expert on Apple designs but if I had to guess I would say they originally designed this monitor case to be a computer, like an iMac, and then for some reason scrapped it and came up with MagSafe instead, which — if true, whoever greenlit that in Apple management is my hero. MagSafe on the M1 iMac is a thing of beauty.

Re: not caring about Face ID…the main point I was trying to make was, everything to make it work is there, and just that one additional feature would have added a lot of value to the product.
Those Touch ID enabled keyboards are expensive and have laptop / low profile keys and switches (bleh!!)….Again, smacks of just plain not trying or caring, which makes my face go meh.

Not liking fans since you can't clean them and I hate all types of noice. I also think an external power supply like on the iMac 24 M1 would have been better.

I understand and I can agree on FaceID. As long as you can turn the camera off or block it (I guess you can buy a privacy slider yourself but it would look less attractive). I prefer TouchID but I can see some people wanting to use another keyboard. So yeah, maybe FaceID wouldn't be such a bad idea. Making the display more versatile.

I won't be buying this display. Out of my price range but even if I had that much money to spend, it feels like a bad value for my money. I hope Apple brings out something better in the future.