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They do, but also not really. Last figures I remember are probably between 80-90% of people buying the same operating system as before. Which is great for Apple from a business perspective, no doubt, but when the public policy goal is to create more competition in digital services it's just not an effective lever.

Ok, so if 80-90% of the people are happy (at least enough to buy it again) with the platform they currently have, why are we even having this discussion?

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.” - John Lydgate
 
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As big as the EU market is, if Apple withheld the iPhone 14 for even a month, thats a lot of retail stores income dead for the year. Although Apple is 25% of the EU market, its probably like 80% of the profits. Thats what all the other companies hate.

Usually when the EU or someone comes up with something existential for the big tech companies, they just leave the market. The market eventually begs them back. So I do wonder how this bill will end up changing.

I think Apple would go USB C with iPhone anyway, so thats an easy concession. The iMessage stuff is totally against all the big tech companies mind set, I'm wondering who advised the EU that this would be something they could get to happen?
What security? Did you not see how Pegasus just shredded Apple's so-called security, to the delight of brutal, socialist, authoritarian, freedom-hating regimes?
and pegasus have done what to android? it’s a joke by comparison. At least apple can patch the OS and have most users on it within weeks. Whats The android OS update uptake like? can your phone from 3yrs ago even get the latest OS? Oh… android is just as badly designed as windows was, but at least MS are somewhat embarrassed by it.. google don’t even pretend to care.

Android is basically a data scraping device built out of digital swiss cheese that moonlights as an operating system on the weekends…
 
I would imagine the store ecosystem will grow, then shrink, if it takes off at all. Even with giving away content, Epic is still losing money on their game store. Not many smaller players would be able to absorb these sorts of losses. Eventually, some of the stores will fold. I think we'll start seeing the same with streaming services.

Or, as Epic found out with Android, perhaps Apple will be forced into sideloading and/or alternative stores, but not enough users bother with either, and we wind up with the status quo, and Apple was forced into this for nothing.

The messaging part is more concerning and a lot less feasible.
 
Its Apples platform, Apple's rules........ Changes will come but probably not what the EU is asking for.

There's always Android for the ones that don't get it the way they want it.
and they still won't pull out of a 400 million people market, regardless what anyone thinks here
 
If a platform reaches a certain market power, particularly if that platform is under the exclusive control of a simple company, it even become immaterial because the objective becomes that such platform advantages cannot be leveraged to shut out competition, which they very obviously are.

I think this is the crux of the issue. Has Apple gotten so big (or specifically, iOS devices) that by not opening parts of its OS and hardware they are stifling competition and competitors? I don’t believe that’s the case, but I can see why others do. Its crazy, a device that wasn’t even around 15 years ago is now so massive that there’s serious debate as to whether it should be regulated almost as if it’s a public utility. Time flies.

I guess the core argument is at what point does a company go from being able to own and control the products they’ve invested time, money and research into to being so big they need to turn over some of that control. Many feel Apple is already there, I guess that’s where the disagreement lies.

Should Apple be forced to allow third-party app stores, I wonder what precedent that will have for other similar devices. The phrase “slippery slope” gets used a lot, but I tend to agree.
 
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There probably are people who purchase the iPhone for the App Store and I don't doubt that some are in this thread, I'm just not convinced this accurately reflects how people's purchase decisions are actually made out in the wild.

People buy iPhones for all sorts of reasons and making it about a singular issue really misses the point for most people. Some people buy it for the cameras, or because it works well with their Mac, or because they've always had an iPhone, or because it's a pretty lifestyle product or, yes, because they like the app distribution model. The fact is people don't have a choice, for better or worse (!), and that gives Apple (and all the gatekeepers in other areas) quite a bit of power over all sorts of things.

From the perspective of a regulator of an entire market -- one that has a vested interest in enabling more competition and innovation particularly from local companies -- the argument that all people had to do was to switch their entire ecosystem is not really credible.

And here we are.
You talk about people buying iPhones for all sorts of different reasons - again, if you buy something without checking to see if it fits your needs, especially when you're spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on said item, and it turns out that it doesn't meet your needs, that's on you. Again, if you bought a Tesla, because you really the big flat-panel display or the "self driving" mode, or the sunroof, or whatever, and then you complained that you can't fill it up at the gas station, don't expect any sympathy, and don't go trying to get the government to require gasoline engines in Teslas. And I'm not saying "they just need to change their entire ecosystem", I'm saying if they picked the wrong ecosystem (or the wrong type of vehicle), they need to deal with the consequences of their actions themselves, not mandate some sort of government deus ex machina to clear up their mess for them. The time to do research about how to spend a whole bunch of money is before you spend all that money.

Insisting that there must be government controlled competition inside of the ecosystem that Apple has built is like insisting that Taco Bell must be allowed to set up a stand and sell their food inside of McDonalds. That's not how you compete - that's more like looking for government sanctioned ways to loot a market that someone else did all the work to set up. Go build your own hardware/software ecosystem or look for one more to your liking.

Apple built an entire ecosystem, they researched, designed, and built phones that a lot of people said were completely nuts and would never work, at the time. They negotiated with phone carriers to get a level of access that the carriers never allowed previously (frankly, without that behind-the-scenes work by Apple, we'd probably all still be using flip phones and buying $2 midi ringtones). They built the OS and all the system software to run on their phones, and they worked through many iterations over the years to make their phones popular, by adding compelling features that people wanted. They added an App Store, and let anyone willing to jump through a few hoops write apps to run on said phones. This became a very lucrative market that many people want to get in to, because of all the work Apple has put in building the iPhone and making it a compelling device and ecosystem. It's a valuable ecosystem because Apple built it. It didn't just happen by coincidence or magically appear one day. (And to be clear, I'm not saying that only Apple is capable of building such a thing, just that few others have put in the work to do so.) Google has also built a compelling ecosystem, running on somewhat different principles. Good for them. I don't want an Android phone, but it sounds like a perfect fit for you.

Outside of tech forums like these, you're not seeing a huge groundswell of people arguing that they need sideloading, what you're seeing is the end results of big competitors to Apple lobbying politicians hard to gain advantage for themselves - the easy way, by getting politicians to decree something, rather than by putting in the work to build their own ecosystem. They're not doing this in the interests of the end users, they're doing this so other big companies can make lots more money.

Apple is not shutting out competition (in this respect - there are other areas where perhaps they are - that's a separate discussion), the competition is Android, and the competition is winning.

People like you are trying to take away a choice that many of us made quite intentionally (to be sure, some made the choice without thinking - that's on them), and justifying it because you believe you know what is better for us than we do ourselves.
 
If Apple's App Store is the best for consumers they have nothing to worry about. It is interesting that people who are against the freedom to choose your App Store saying the EU regulation is against freedom etc.

Yeah, but that’s an argument that’s easy to reverse - those who say they are for freedom demanding a say in how Apple operates its hardware and software.
 
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Ok, so if 80-90% of the people are happy (at least enough to buy it again) with the platform they currently have, why are we even having this discussion?

Because the DSA and DMA are neither specifically about Apple (or Google), nor are they primarily about consumer protection directly.

They seek to create and foster competition in digital markets and prevent gatekeepers from leveraging their dominant position to shut out the competition.

The EU probably have the very valid concern that certain platforms have become so dominant that it would be difficult for competitors to break into a market or, additionally, be even prevented from offering certain services in the first place.

For example, I love Apple Pay and use it every day, but maybe a different solution could offer an even better service. Maybe it could offer particularly local benefits test Apple is just not interested in.

Maybe WhatsApp has become so entrenched that people don't even bother anymore.

Enabling interoperability and opening up platform can and should benefit people in the long term. High loyalty rates are not necessarily a sign that this isn't necessary. They could (not are!!!) even be a sign that gatekeepers are in fact locking people in.
 
This is an excellent example. If Apple is forced to open up to 3rd party stores, it would likely only be a matter of time before we're flooded with dozens of stores because everybody wants to have their own. Obviously there will be plenty of legitimate and safe stores, but you can bet your a** that there will be tons of scammers setting up their own stores and targeting unsuspecting users with malware hidden in what they think is a legitimate app.

Don't worry, a future bill from the EU will require that all app stores carry all of the apps available in all of the other app stores.
 
You talk about people buying iPhones for all sorts of different reasons - again, if you buy something without checking to see if it fits your needs, especially when you're spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on said item, and it turns out that it doesn't meet your needs, that's on you. Again, if you bought a Tesla, because you really the big flat-panel display or the "self driving" mode, or the sunroof, or whatever, and then you complained that you can't fill it up at the gas station, don't expect any sympathy, and don't go trying to get the government to require gasoline engines in Teslas.

Insisting that there must be government controlled competition inside of the ecosystem that Apple has built is like insisting that Taco Bell must be allowed to set up a stand and sell their food inside of McDonalds. That's not how you compete - that's more like looking for government sanctioned ways to loot a market that someone else did all the work to set up. Go build your own hardware/software ecosystem or look for one more to your liking.

Apple built an entire ecosystem, they researched, designed, and built phones that a lot of people said were completely nuts and would never work, at the time. They negotiated with phone carriers to get a level of access that the carriers never allowed previously (frankly, without that behind-the-scenes work by Apple, we'd probably all still be using flip phones and buying $2 midi ringtones). They built the OS and all the system software to run on their phones, and they worked through many iterations over the years to make their phones popular, by adding compelling features that people wanted. They added an App Store, and let anyone willing to jump through a few hoops write apps to run on said phones. This became a very lucrative market that many people want to get in to, because of all the work Apple has put in building the iPhone and making it a compelling device and ecosystem. It's a valuable ecosystem because Apple built it. It didn't just happen by coincidence or magically appear one day. (And to be clear, I'm not saying that only Apple is capable of building such a thing, just that few others have put in the work to do so.) Google has also built a compelling ecosystem, running on somewhat different principles. Good for them. I don't want an Android phone, but it sounds like a perfect fit for you.

Outside of tech forums like these, you're not seeing a huge groundswell of people arguing that they need sideloading, what you're seeing is the end results of big competitors to Apple lobbying politicians hard to gain advantage for themselves - the easy way, by getting politicians to decree something, rather than by putting in the work to build their own ecosystem. They're not doing this in the interests of the end users, they're doing this so other big companies can make lots more money.

Apple is not shutting out competition (in this respect - there are other areas where perhaps they are - that's a separate discussion), the competition is Android, and the competition is winning.

People like you are trying to take away a choice that many of us made quite intentionally (to be sure, some made the choice without thinking - that's on them), and justifying it because you believe you know what is better for us than we do ourselves.

Right. It also raises the question - what if Apple never opened iOS at all? No App Store, no third-party apps. Like a video game system or old-school iPod.

What makes it a must for them to allow third-party app stores? Their market share of devices or software? The fact they opened up an App Store in the first place? And at what point did they go from being ok to running their software and hardware how they saw fit to now needing to open their devices and software up? What’s the threshold? 20% market share? 10%?
 
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They do, but also not really. Last figures I remember are probably between 80-90% of people buying the same operating system as before. Which is great for Apple from a business perspective, no doubt, but when the public policy goal is to create more competition in digital services it's just not an effective lever.
If you're going down that route, why not simply create a law that all companies wishing to sell smartphones must submit their names to a government list, and then when a citizen wishes to buy a smartphone, they ask the government, and are provided with the brand name that's next in line (with the list cycling back up to the top when it gets to the bottom), and the citizen is required to purchase that brand of phone. It would get rid of the pesky problem of people buying the same operating system as before, and would give every potential smartphone maker an equal chance to sell smartphones. It would fairly distribute the sales among the various companies, so no one company would make too much money or get too much of the market.

So, problem solved? It certainly seems like this would achieve the public policy goals you've set forth.
 
Because the DSA and DMA are neither specifically about Apple (or Google), nor are they primarily about consumer protection directly.

They seek to create and foster competition in digital markets and prevent gatekeepers from leveraging their dominant position to shut out the competition.

The EU probably have the very valid concern that certain platforms have become so dominant that it would be difficult for competitors to break into a market or, additionally, be even prevented from offering certain services in the first place.

For example, I love Apple Pay and use it every day, but maybe a different solution could offer an even better service. Maybe it could offer particularly local benefits test Apple is just not interested in.

Maybe WhatsApp has become so entrenched that people don't even bother anymore.

Enabling interoperability and opening up platform can and should benefit people in the long term. High loyalty rates are not necessarily a sign that this isn't necessary. They could (not are!!!) even be a sign that gatekeepers are in fact locking people in.

How does Apple opening up iMessage to other apps help competitors break into the market or enable them to offer certain services? Any dev can create their own messaging app. Just because it won't integrate seamlessly with iMessage has no bearing on their ability to do so.

And if WhatsApp has become so entrenched that they're the dominant player in the instant message market (never used it so I have no idea), then how does opening iMessage to them do anything other than entrench them further? That in and of itself will help stifle competition.
 
What makes it a must for them to allow third-party app stores? Their market share of devices or software? The fact they opened up an App Store in the first place? And at what point did they go from being ok to running their software and hardware how they saw fit to now needing to open their devices and software up? What’s the threshold? 20% market share? 10%?
Yep, it's essentially like, "well, Apple has gone to huge effort to develop a new market, and now it's pretty lucrative, so we want to nationalize that", taking away the market that Apple has built and sharing it out "equitably" with everyone else. But we're passing it off as "pro consumer", so everyone should like it.
 
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You talk about people buying iPhones for all sorts of different reasons - again, if you buy something without checking to see if it fits your needs, especially when you're spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on said item, and it turns out that it doesn't meet your needs, that's on you. Again, if you bought a Tesla, because you really the big flat-panel display or the "self driving" mode, or the sunroof, or whatever, and then you complained that you can't fill it up at the gas station, don't expect any sympathy, and don't go trying to get the government to require gasoline engines in Teslas. And I'm not saying "they just need to change their entire ecosystem", I'm saying if they picked the wrong ecosystem (or the wrong type of vehicle), they need to deal with the consequences of their actions themselves, not mandate some sort of government deus ex machina to clear up their mess for them. The time to do research about how to spend a whole bunch of money is before you spend all that money.

Insisting that there must be government controlled competition inside of the ecosystem that Apple has built is like insisting that Taco Bell must be allowed to set up a stand and sell their food inside of McDonalds. That's not how you compete - that's more like looking for government sanctioned ways to loot a market that someone else did all the work to set up. Go build your own hardware/software ecosystem or look for one more to your liking.

Apple built an entire ecosystem, they researched, designed, and built phones that a lot of people said were completely nuts and would never work, at the time. They negotiated with phone carriers to get a level of access that the carriers never allowed previously (frankly, without that behind-the-scenes work by Apple, we'd probably all still be using flip phones and buying $2 midi ringtones). They built the OS and all the system software to run on their phones, and they worked through many iterations over the years to make their phones popular, by adding compelling features that people wanted. They added an App Store, and let anyone willing to jump through a few hoops write apps to run on said phones. This became a very lucrative market that many people want to get in to, because of all the work Apple has put in building the iPhone and making it a compelling device and ecosystem. It's a valuable ecosystem because Apple built it. It didn't just happen by coincidence or magically appear one day. (And to be clear, I'm not saying that only Apple is capable of building such a thing, just that few others have put in the work to do so.) Google has also built a compelling ecosystem, running on somewhat different principles. Good for them. I don't want an Android phone, but it sounds like a perfect fit for you.

Outside of tech forums like these, you're not seeing a huge groundswell of people arguing that they need sideloading, what you're seeing is the end results of big competitors to Apple lobbying politicians hard to gain advantage for themselves - the easy way, by getting politicians to decree something, rather than by putting in the work to build their own ecosystem. They're not doing this in the interests of the end users, they're doing this so other big companies can make lots more money.

Apple is not shutting out competition (in this respect - there are other areas where perhaps they are - that's a separate discussion), the competition is Android, and the competition is winning.

People like you are trying to take away a choice that many of us made quite intentionally (to be sure, some made the choice without thinking - that's on them), and justifying it because you believe you know what is better for us than we do ourselves.

The point wasn't that people are choosing a device that doesn't meet their needs, the point is that you're bundling all the myriad considerations that go into people's decision for a specific platform and then interpret this as an explicit backing for every policy Apple has put in place. That's just not how these things work and you know it.

Yes I absolutely agree that if we went out and polled consumers very few would probably say that sideloading is an absolute priority for them when choosing their platform. Conversely, how many people choose Apple specifically because they don't allow third party app stores? I think you're probably overestimating the number.

Apple is absolutely shutting out the competition. If you want to provide a mobile payment solution, or a virtual assistant, or a video calling service or an App Store or etc on iPhone the competition is not Android, it's Apple -- and Apple is not allowing you to even compete in some of these. That's the issue. Let's also not forget that neither the DMA or DSA is specifically about Apple or app stores. It's about enabling competition in digital markets.

Ultimately I don't believe that I know better what is better for you specifically. I don't know you. What I do believe is that there are good public policy reasons for opening up dominant platforms, that there are trade offs and there are no win win scenarios here.
 
Right. It also raises the question - what if Apple never opened iOS at all? No App Store, no third-party apps. Like a video game system or old-school iPod.

What makes it a must for them to allow third-party app stores? Their market share of devices or software? The fact they opened up an App Store in the first place? And at what point did they go from being ok to running their software and hardware how they saw fit to now needing to open their devices and software up? What’s the threshold? 20% market share? 10%?
Realistically if Apple never created the App Store the iPhone would've severely stagnated and instead of it being iOS versus Android, today it would be BlackBerry versus Android or Microsoft versus Android. You can't ask such a question in a vacuum. The third-party apps available on the App Store bring an enormous benefit to Apple, something conveniently glossed over by those talking about how Apple built this whole thing alone.
 
How does Apple opening up iMessage to other apps help competitors break into the market or enable them to offer certain services? Any dev can create their own messaging app. Just because it won't integrate seamlessly with iMessage has no bearing on their ability to do so.

And if WhatsApp has become so entrenched that they're the dominant player in the instant message market (never used it so I have no idea), then how does opening iMessage to them do anything other than entrench them further? That in and of itself will help stifle competition.

WhatsApp/Meta is likely a gatekeeper itself in this scenario. I'm an iPhone user in a country where WhatsApp is a de facto standard that is basically impossible to escape.

If services are interoperable it lower the entry bar for new services. I might even be able to use iMessage to talk with my colleagues, eliminating the need to install WhatsApp completely.

Maybe a new messenger has the right idea for additional features but is unable to even make a dent. Opening it up might help because using the service would not disrupt your existing conversations.
 
If you're going down that route, why not simply create a law that all companies wishing to sell smartphones must submit their names to a government list, and then when a citizen wishes to buy a smartphone, they ask the government, and are provided with the brand name that's next in line (with the list cycling back up to the top when it gets to the bottom), and the citizen is required to purchase that brand of phone. It would get rid of the pesky problem of people buying the same operating system as before, and would give every potential smartphone maker an equal chance to sell smartphones. It would fairly distribute the sales among the various companies, so no one company would make too much money or get too much of the market.

So, problem solved? It certainly seems like this would achieve the public policy goals you've set forth.
You've lost the plot a bit. The purpose isn't to create more competition among smartphones themselves. It's to create more competition among services tied to smartphones.
 
Nobody is arguing they don't have the resources to do so. The argument is whether they should be forced to.

The EU can legislate and regulate as they see fit within their legal jurisdiction. If Apple doesnt like said laws, they're free to withdraw from the European market.
 
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Realistically if Apple never created the App Store the iPhone would've severely stagnated and instead of it being iOS versus Android, today it would be BlackBerry versus Android or Microsoft versus Android. You can't ask such a question in a vacuum. The third-party apps available on the App Store bring an enormous benefit to Apple, something conveniently glossed over by those talking about how Apple built this whole thing alone.

All true. But nobody has forced anyone to operate on the App Store. Apple should be successful from allowing third-party apps on the App Store. McDonald’s is a success because of its customers too, how much legal say should we have in what food they serve or what they put on their menu?

I hate to keep using the fast food analogies, but they’re apt.

Apple has a platform in place that people are free to utilize or not to sell their apps and make money. Many people get through life with no cell phone or only a generic flip-phone, so I don’t see the devices or App marketplace being critical to everyday life like electricity, running water or even the internet. There’s other phones, other operating systems, other ways to get what you need done. I would hate to operate a store that became a success, then be told what I must sell in my store and what commission I can or can’t take after the fact.
 
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How does Apple opening up iMessage to other apps help competitors break into the market or enable them to offer certain services? Any dev can create their own messaging app. Just because it won't integrate seamlessly with iMessage has no bearing on their ability to do so.

And if WhatsApp has become so entrenched that they're the dominant player in the instant message market (never used it so I have no idea), then how does opening iMessage to them do anything other than entrench them further? That in and of itself will help stifle competition.
Let's say a developer comes up with some awesome new feature for a messaging app. Today the problem exists that, in order for the app to be successful they have to work tremendously hard to try to get existing users of well-established platforms like iMessage and WhatsApp to use it. As cool as the new innovative feature may be, it's useless to a user if there's nobody else to communicate with on the app. But if basic interoperability is required, now suddenly the developer's users can communicate with everyone else already. While these outside users can't use the innovative app-specific feature with non-users of the app, they're still able to interoperate on the basics of the standard for communication, just like every other app. There's a built-in, basic, and level playing field. If the feature is really that innovative, they'll eventually be able to amass a sizable number of app users. Conversely, today because of the difficulty of the prospect of breaking through to users of established players, Apple, Google, or Facebook may see this new feature and decide to buy them out, with the developer taking them up on the offer because they realize the prospect of succeeding is low and it's a big payday. So now instead of "future SnapChat" some day becoming a large company of their own, it becomes just another cog in the Apple or Google machine. This is what really kills innovation. Large competitors buying up smaller, innovative ones, just to add their IP to their own portfolio. If regulation can make it more viable for smaller players to exist on their own, rather than having to count on a buyout from a FAANG company, then that's a win for both innovation and competition.
 
The EU can legislate and regulate as they see fit within their legal jurisdiction. If Apple doesnt like said laws, they're free to withdraw from the European market.

That goes without saying and there’s been no debate about that. The argument is not whether the EU has the right to legislate in such a way. This is a philosophical argument about whether they should, not if they can.
 
The point wasn't that people are choosing a device that doesn't meet their needs, the point is that you're bundling all the myriad considerations that go into people's decision for a specific platform and then interpret this as an explicit backing for every policy Apple has put in place. That's just not how these things work and you know it.

Yes I absolutely agree that if we went out and polled consumers very few would probably say that sideloading is an absolute priority for them when choosing their platform. Conversely, how many people choose Apple specifically because they don't allow third party app stores? I think you're probably overestimating the number.

Apple is absolutely shutting out the competition. If you want to provide a mobile payment solution, or a virtual assistant, or a video calling service or an App Store or etc on iPhone the competition is not Android, it's Apple -- and Apple is not allowing you to even compete in some of these. That's the issue. Let's also not forget that neither the DMA or DSA is specifically about Apple or app stores. It's about enabling competition in digital markets.

Ultimately I don't believe that I know better what is better for you specifically. I don't know you. What I do believe is that there are good public policy reasons for opening up dominant platforms, that there are trade offs and there are no win win scenarios here.
I'm sorry, alternate video calling services aren't allowed?? What about Skype, Teams, Jabber, Zoom, etc.?
 
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If you're going down that route, why not simply create a law that all companies wishing to sell smartphones must submit their names to a government list, and then when a citizen wishes to buy a smartphone, they ask the government, and are provided with the brand name that's next in line (with the list cycling back up to the top when it gets to the bottom), and the citizen is required to purchase that brand of phone. It would get rid of the pesky problem of people buying the same operating system as before, and would give every potential smartphone maker an equal chance to sell smartphones. It would fairly distribute the sales among the various companies, so no one company would make too much money or get too much of the market.

So, problem solved? It certainly seems like this would achieve the public policy goals you've set forth.

You're trying really hard to take things out of context, aren't you?

No one said the goal was to get people to jump between phone manufacturers. The argument was that relying on people to change their entire platform as a lever to enable competition in specific services is neither effective nor credible. It isn't and I said why in a different post.
 
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