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That's fine, but you do not get to complain when the OS doesn't run on random pieces of junk hardware that you bought. You want support, buy a Mac. Then if the OS doesn't run on it, you have the right to complain.

Otherwise you're on your own.

So, you're not asking for any support, but Apple should " take the hint and listen to what the hackintoshers are asking for"?

I'm glad they don't. That would bring OSX down to the level of windows.

I guarantee I've owned more Macs than you. Probably still have more Macs than you ever had if I gave away half of what I presently own.

Apple pure and simple is missing a market. If I could have bought an Apple made Mini10 for $4-500 I probably would. I am not Hackintoshing out of needing a cheap computer. I'm doing it because Apple doesn't offer a product with similar dimensions or capabilities.
 
There is no ego involved. I understand that the hackintosh community is small, but I have seen more switchers from the hackintosh community than the non-hackintosh community. Just my personal experience. That's all.
"Half of all of the purchases from the Apple Stores come from people new to the Mac"
That's what we've been hearing at all the latest Apple quarterly financial reports… Man, there must be a ton of you guys.

People need to go listen to the latest Angry Mac Bastard podcast for some insight on this topic.
 
And I thought I was a fanboy. While I think that companies like Psystar are malicious and should be shutdown, an individual should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want to their own hardware including hack into their systems as they feel as long as it isn't intended to profit off of others inventions and is for personal use. Your opinion while you have a right to it, is in my opinion ridiculous.

While I hesitantly agree with this notion, There is one big problem. If an individual can do something, you can make a business around it. What can Apple do to stop businesses from hackintoshing that doesn't affect individuals as well? Not much. Sure Apple can sue the companies, but they have to make a case that they actively have some sort of protection method in place to make any infringement cases that much stronger. These activities go a long way towards a stronger case.

If this whole thing is true, Apple is taking a much more effective route to stop an avenue of hackintoshing so that businesses don't even bother with Atom - make the business of hackintoshing less and less appealing. However no matter what route Apple goes down their actions are going to affect both sides. Apple knows that none of its legitimate products run on the Atom so why should they support it? Its easy for them to justify that action. Unfortunately Apple has to go after everyone equally in the Hackintosh front because technology doesn't make a differentiation in motives. Technical barriers are easier to establish than legal ones are to fight.

At least Apple doesn't sue individuals - they just make it inconvenient for them.
 
. A 27" iMac is too big for me and the Mac Pro is not a good value now, and Apple just doesn't have any Mac smaller/cheaper than the 13" MacBook.

I'm guessing you missed the press release, but it sounds like what you're looking for is the Mac Mini.

Apple can ignore the market all they want, but it's just money lost for them. If there had been an Apple netbook on the market, even for a couple hundred more, I probably would have bought that.

Apple does make a very small laptop, its called the MacBook Air. What Apple doesn't make is a cheap underpowered, way out of date, minimal resource laptop.

But it is not "money lost for them". You're not accounting for the costs of this support. IF the costs exceed the revenue, and they likely will for competing in the razor thin margins area, they might well lose money.


In high school and college, during the 90's, I had to deal with the ignorance and bashing on Macs by the aforementioned PC trolls. The PC side of bashing is far worse than what you'll experience on the Mac side...simply because you are outnumbered by PC's.

You still are. The difference is that they now want OS X on their PCs.

The idea that mac users are elitists and arrogant is just another one of the ignorant, dishonest, claims of the PC fanboys.

Mac users like their computers, some of them even love them. But they are much less cult-like than PC users.

Generally because Mac users are better informed, and thus more aware of the realities than PC users for whom their brand of PC is like a football game or church and PC is their religion.

They don't make computers that use the Atom processer...so they are in their right not to support that processor.

The funny thing is, they probably DO support the processor because that's how generous Apple is. But during the QA cycle of an update, a bug showed up that caused problems, and now the whiny hackintosh compunity-- which apparently doesn't really actually like Apple-- is complaining that they've "Removed" support. For software that is in the QA process, and hasn't been released yet.


So thanks to hackintoshing, Apple got $320 from me, and will be recieving more when i can afford a macbook. Thats $320 that apple would have never seen if it werent for osx86.

That's great, and that's probably why Apple does put minimal support into compatibility.

But that doesn't mean they should going forward. You're not Apple's target market, at least not yet. I'm not either, actually.

They have to target their market and if we like their products, great, but we don't get to insist they target products to us.

They can't, they have to focus.

Focus is what makes them great.

I hate to tell you ... Its the processor, chip set, memory, video card, etc, and Windows and Mac machines have almost identical components.

I hate to tell you but you're leaving out the OS, and "almost" is not the same, and probably not appropriate going forward as Apple has its own processor design company. OS X runs on a lot of places that are not the desktop computer you're talking about.

You really don't understand software on a level to make the claim you do-- and if you did you'd realize that just because these components are similar, does not man they are the same, and does not mean that the software will run on both groups-- especially when its written with the capabilities and configuration of one group in mind and not the other.

I could run off every Apple product recall and defect list as well.

You could, but I still doubt that if you did it would persuade you.


Otherwise Apple orders components, boards, and assembly just like every other OEM on the market. Consumer satisfaction has nothing to do with the processor in your Mac being identical its siblings elsewhere.

Yeah, this is false. You don't know what you're talking about. Its the land of PCs-- your land-- where computer makers just throw things in a box and they have motherboard standards so any maker can use any source of commodity motherboards.

That is not how it is with Macs.

You want the Mac experience, great, start understanding where it comes from.

It comes from Apple making the whole thing, and being able to control quality from end to end.


Most of them buy legitimate copies of OS X and run them on hardware selections beyond Apple's meager and outdated offerings.You can put the pom-poms down now. It's just kind of sad at this point. :eek:

You're the one with pompoms and you are giving arguments on the level of a cheerleader's cheers as well.



I really want(ed) a fanless Mac netbook once the Pine Trail chips were released. I value a very small, high resolution laptop, and Apple just doesn't build one and doesn't seem to want to.

Its called the MacBook Air. No fan, amazingly thin.

IF you want a low end, extremely compact (but not thin) machine, then Apple doesn't compete in this space yet.

Apple chooses to compete only where it can offer a superior product. This is a good thing.

This is probably about Apple (Intel) not wanting Atom-based Hackintosh netbooks (with Atom processors) cannibalizing product sales of the MacBook Air (with ULV Cores). It could also be about Apple wanting to protect the small screen space to some future iPhone OS based-similar-sized tablet.

Why make up a conspiracy theory when this being a bug in beta software makes more sense.

Apple doesn't need to "protect" the Air. People who buy netbooks would never buy the air-- they don't care about a thin computer, they want one that is tiny.

They are simply imposing their wishes to extract as much value out of the market as possible. Of course, what this means is that Apple will inadvertently provide a big boost to some other welcoming OS - Like Windows 7 (works great on a netbook) or maybe even Chrome OS. I'm sure Google would love to pick up Apple's discarded chaff.

Ha Ha! You say that like its a bad thing. Yeah, I do like it better when the cheapskates who can't tell the difference between price and value aren't on the mac platform. This has resulted in Apple capturing %90 of the industry profits and growing like crazy while the "Welcoming" pc makers duke it out at the low end with razor thin margins and lose money.

So, obviously we are not going to see 10.6.2 anytime soon blah, come on now really if you guys are hackers (not being a jerk) why can't you guys find a way to make 10.6.2 work?

You'd think. But they aren't, they're riding on the coattails of engineers who did the real hacking.

Yes - I think that's true of must Hackintoshers. One of my biggest reasons is portability - Apple products are all too big to take on an airplane and use in a typical coach seat.

MacBook Air.

Hell, I've done it with my MacBook Pro.
 
I guarantee I've owned more Macs than you. Probably still have more Macs than you ever had if I gave away half of what I presently own.

Apple pure and simple is missing a market. If I could have bought an Apple made Mini10 for $4-500 I probably would. I am not Hackintoshing out of needing a cheap computer. I'm doing it because Apple doesn't offer a product with similar dimensions or capabilities.

Quoted for truth.

Imagine how much the hackintosh community might shrink if Apple simply offered upgradeable mini towers with TODAY'S hardware, and not of 4 years ago.
 
Apple pure and simple is missing a market. If I could have bought an Apple made Mini10 for $4-500 I probably would. I am not Hackintoshing out of needing a cheap computer. I'm doing it because Apple doesn't offer a product with similar dimensions or capabilities.

One could also argue that Apple is missing tons of other markets that other companies embrace. That doesn't mean jack. BMW is missing out on selling cheap cars. The markets that Apple chooses to compete in are not our call to make. There are tons of things that I wish companies to make that they will just never sell. That's not an excuse to go behind a company and screw with their assets.

At some point we can allways bring up the "I want a pony" argument because thats what all the hackintosh arguements end up boiling down to - they want something that somebody won't provide that they believe they have the right to. That's not how the world works.
 
You still haven't explained why you think it's still a myth. Elaborate.

Reality is, Apple makes ASICs. There are components in machines that simply don't exist in commodity hardware. Apple's moved away from this in the recent past, only because they had a big architecture shift to intel. So they were more generic in 2006 than they were in 2005, not just by using the generic processor, but also by moving to generic support chips to ease the speed of transition. But this is not a static situation and they've been moving away, and I expect the amount of custom Apple hardware will continue to go up, probably quite dramatically.

But even when talking about the "generic" PC parts, these parts ship from the manufacturers with quite a bit of capability.

Silicon design is very expensive and thus is often licensed between companies. Once the design is done, the silicon itself isn't that expensive.

So they put in capabilities out the wazoo. They want to provide as much value as possible. Further, where they are spending the money they try to differentiate as much as possible. They put in features that nobody needs- remember Intel bundling wifi a few years ago? That's an example. They put in support for dozens of USB ports, they put in things like the FM radio circuitry that's shipping with the iPhone, even though the iPhone doesn't make use of it in software.

Thus these chips are not generic, they are collections of feature sets for the software makers to choose from.

The windows world is a land of generic support for generic hardware. Many PCs ship with chips capable of more advanced modes that can be taken advantage of by software-- but much of this capability is not being used. (EG: 64 bit CPUS being run in 32 bit mode most of the time is a common example, but advanced capabilities of video chips that aren't supported by direct X are another.)

Apple is able to ensure that the hardware running has the capabilities they want and is thus able to exploit them.

Getting OS X to run on unsupported hardware is generally using a lowest common denominator fallback in the OS.
 
Apple does make a very small laptop, its called the MacBook Air. What Apple doesn't make is a cheap underpowered, way out of date, minimal resource laptop.


Its called the MacBook Air. No fan, amazingly thin.

IF you want a low end, extremely compact (but not thin) machine, then Apple doesn't compete in this space yet.

Apple chooses to compete only where it can offer a superior product. This is a good thing.

MacBook Air.

Hell, I've done it with my MacBook Pro.

Ummm, I have a Rev A. MBA & a Rev. B. You need to read up a bit on their specifications. Especially that fan thing.:rolleyes: & single USB. & no Enet. & lack of HDD options....

Oh, don't dent that dainty little precious because Apple very well may deny you service.

I love my MBA, I just always worry about it being stolen when traveling to not so nice places. Won't really lose a whole lot of sleep if the Mini10 is.

One could also argue that Apple is missing tons of other markets that other companies embrace. That doesn't mean jack. BMW is missing out on selling cheap cars. The markets that Apple chooses to compete in are not our call to make. There are tons of things that I wish companies to make that they will just never sell. That's not an excuse to go behind a company and screw with their assets.

At some point we can allways bring up the "I want a pony" argument because thats what all the hackintosh arguements end up boiling down to - they want something that somebody won't provide that they believe they have the right to. That's not how the world works.

Then why put out Bootcamp?

In keeping with the car analogy, if I want to buy a Vega and put a V8 in it and BMW wheels, what right do the companies have to stop me from modifying my purchased products to what I want as long as I don't sell them?
 
You're the one with pompoms and you are giving arguments on the level of a cheerleader's cheers as well.

We're still waiting for your "expert" analysis as to why Apple hardware is superior. :rolleyes:

Protip: MBA is not a netbook.

Even when using "generic" PC parts, these parts ship from the manufacturers with quite a bit of capability.

Silicon design is very expensive and thus is often licensed between companies. Once the design is done, the silicon itself isn't that expensive.

So they put in capabilities out the wazoo. They want to provide as much value as possible. Further, where they are spending the money they try to differentiate as much as possible.

The windows world is a land of generic support for generic hardware. Many PCs ship with chips capable of more advanced modes that can be taken advantage of by software-- but much of this capability is not being used. (EG: 64 bit CPUS being run in 32 bit mode most of the time is a common example, but advanced capabilities of video chips that aren't supported by direct X are another.)

Apple is able to ensure that the hardware running has the capabilities they want and is thus able to exploit them.

Getting OS X to run on unsupported hardware is generally using a lowest common denominator fallback in the OS.

Capabilities out the wazoo, huh? You mean capabilities of years past since we're considering consistantly outdated hardware offerings from Apple, right? Let's see...Blu-ray, quad core notebooks, upgradable mini towers, standard expansion ports... Oh wait, Apple still doesn't have any of those..

Good effort, though. Try again? (Y/N)
 
I hate to tell you but you're leaving out the OS, and "almost" is not the same, and probably not appropriate going forward as Apple has its own processor design company. OS X runs on a lot of places that are not the desktop computer you're talking about.

You really don't understand software on a level to make the claim you do-- and if you did you'd realize that just because these components are similar, does not man they are the same, and does not mean that the software will run on both groups-- especially when its written with the capabilities and configuration of one group in mind and not the other.


Again we are talking about hardware. I purposely left out software because the Software is what is at stake here. We are making comparisons of the "Apple Tax" on a hardware level. Maybe you just don't understand the English language as well as you think.
 
My 2 cents

Well this has been my experience. I am, for the most part, a virgin mac user. That is, I only use what software Apple makes or certifies, or I use third party developers well established in the Mac community. I hardly ever have an unstable Mac. No crashes to speak of. There are many more like me who use Mac exclusively. We are the majority in the Mac community, although we hardly ever have to post our grievances in the forums. We are the silent majority.

Those hackintoshers, many who are technically computer literate and many who are also long time Mac users too, know they will be thrown a curve in new updates. Most welcome the challenge. Very few are making hackintoshes because they can't afford the real thing. That's a myth. But whatever their reason, I support their effort and right to tinker. I also believe Mac users who venture from virgin Mac tend to post to the forums with their problems much more, making Mac seem more unstable than it really is, although sometimes it's bugs are well deserved.

I don't like the polarizing and talk down too post that always rears it ugliness. That's all all I have to say about it.
 
You could, but I still doubt that if you did it would persuade you.
Persuade me of what? Can you explain?

Yeah, this is false. You don't know what you're talking about. Its the land of PCs-- your land-- where computer makers just throw things in a box and they have motherboard standards so any maker can use any source of commodity motherboards.

That is not how it is with Macs.

You want the Mac experience, great, start understanding where it comes from.

It comes from Apple making the whole thing, and being able to control quality from end to end.
What does Apple do beyond sending designs and specifications to ASUSTek, Foxconn, or Quanta for an order? Then getting the standard OEM components attached to it and assembled alongside every other OEM?

Ah, profoundly dishonest you are. Color me surprised, do not.
What does this have to do with display connections?
 
And Econgekk - you're spreading a lot of misinformation.

I built my first computer as a teenager. It wasn't an act of assembling off the shelf components from asia. You couldn't do that back then. I designed the video card, I designed the CPU board, I made my own circuit boards, soldered chips in, wired things up, then struggled to write my own boot ROM (eg: a bios) and got it going.

I built a computer from scratch. I studied electrical engineering before switching to software development. I am quite familiar with the internals of computers, and with the design of semiconductors, though I am not a semiconductor designer. I'm able to talk to my friend who is without him having to speak in laymans terms.

At one point, I worked for Microsoft on Windows. IF you're running windows, there's code in there I worked on. I know how the sausage is made.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just highly misinformed instead of maliciously lying

You misspelled "expert".

- but please do yourself and this community a favour and don't pretend that the components in a Mac are in some way superior to those in a PC. They're not. They're the same.

Yeah, I won't do you the favor of failing to point out the factual incorrectness of this article of your religious faith.
 
I hope everyone realizes that Atoms can't even deal with Windows 7 64-bit...

http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2009/10/01/windows-7-compatibility-sticker-netbooks-not-included/

I suspect more people will start looking at Intel CULV processors which are much better performing than the Atoms.
There's always 32-bit versions of Windows 7. x64 on Atom is feature to upsell on as well. It's a very low margin product.

This should be the last time out for 32-bit operating systems. I don't see any complaints about OS X's 32-bit support "cruft".
 
I guarantee I've owned more Macs than you. Probably still have more Macs than you ever had if I gave away half of what I presently own.

As if the number of macs you've own is relevant to this conversation or my statement.

But this is a typical "talking out of your ass making assumptions about your opponent" type of technique. I'm calling you on it, but I expect you'll now immediately drop it. Which is good because its nonsense.

I'd have to go back into my records to get an exact account, but I believe at the peak I personally owned something around 230 Macs. Only around %10 of them were pre-PowerPC. That's just the max I had at one time, I would need some financial incentive behind this "guarantee" of yours to go back and account for every one I bought and then later sold.

Apple pure and simple is missing a market.

I wouldn't say they're missing it, Bob!

I'm doing it because Apple doesn't offer a product with similar dimensions or capabilities.

I bet that in a few years the compromises of having a low end but tiny product will wear off and you, and most netbook buyers will be back on regular laptops or will have switched to the iPhone platform.

The iphone does everything people say they want their netbooks for, and is even smaller and more portable. Its even selling so well that I wonder how it stacks up against netbook numbers.

But you're right that Apple doesn't compete in exactly that market.

That's what makes Apple great. They focus on markets where they have a competitive advantage. Junk aint it. At least for now.
 
Not to mention the xMac between the iMac and Mac Pro (i.e., midtower).

Its called the Mac Mini. There's no reason Apple should make a mini-tower. That market segment is covered by the iMac and the Mini. IF you want a tower, get a low end Mac Pro.

Apple isn't supposed to cover ever possible niche that commodity pc makers have created to try and find some brief respite from the relentless competition that's destroying them.
 
"Half of all of the purchases from the Apple Stores come from people new to the Mac"
That's what we've been hearing at all the latest Apple quarterly financial reports… Man, there must be a ton of you guys.

I bet more than %90 of those "new to the Mac" purchases are from people who have never attempted to run OS X on commodity hardware.
 
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